Bigger Change Than Just The Manager?

[D.A.F.C]

It seems obvious to me that we just don't have the talent. Should we not just write off the next two qualifications and play a young side and try lots of new players?

It worked for Vogts to an extent and the ratings don't matter to much as Northern Ireland have shown.

Is it not better to build a solid foundation of youth rather than qualify for a tournament and get pumped anyway?

[DanMc99]

Just now, D.A.F.C said:

 

It seems obvious to me that we just don't have the talent. Should we not just write off the next two qualifications and play a young side and try lots of new players?

It worked for Vogts to an extent and the ratings don't matter to much as Northern Ireland have shown.

Is it not better to build a solid foundation of youth rather than qualify for a tournament and get pumped anyway?

 

we aren't that good but neither are northern ireland , neither are wales without bale but they get results.

 

we just need a consistent team , if we played the team that ended the campaign from the start you could argue we would have qualified on thursday night.

[D.A.F.C]

Wales have a lot of young players coming through. Also they have one world class player and two or three top premiership players who would walk into our side. Northern Ireland are just well organised but again have decent defenders better than anything we have.

[forameus]

No.

I have no interest in "writing off" campaigns like it's some sure-fire way to get success.  If young players are good enough, they can be phased into the senior squad normally.  We don't have this entire squad of young players who aren't getting a game but have this untapped potential.  Wales did it, but then when players like Gareth Bale and Aaron Ramsay are part of their number, it's a whole lot easier.  If we tried it, our ranking would get tanked and completely ruin us for years to come.   We've only just about recovered from the last time we slipped down the rankings.

[harry94]

I don't really take the argument now that we don't have the talent. If we had held on against England or defeated a Lithuania side (who we really should be beating at home), we're through. If we didn't get humped so easily by Slovakia and made a real push to try and hammer Malta, goal difference could swing in our favour.

It's really fine margins and small moments that go against us, we don't have a playing squad that's much different from many teams that go to major tournaments, they are just poorly drilled and utilised.

[DanMc99]

2 minutes ago, harry94 said:

I don't really take the argument now that we don't have the talent. If we had held on against England or defeated a Lithuania side (who we really should be beating at home), we're through. If we didn't get humped so easily by Slovakia and made a real push to try and hammer Malta, goal difference could swing in our favour.

It's really fine margins and small moments that go against us, we don't have a playing squad that's much different from many teams that go to major tournaments, they are just poorly drilled and utilised.

spot on

[Sergeant Wilson]

2 minutes ago, harry94 said:

 

It's really fine margins and small moments that go against us...

Since 1998.

[forameus]

I think the one thing we really need that isn't always talked about is a bit of strength in depth in key positions.  In goals we have Craig Gordon (who isn't without his faults) but is there anyone really challenging him?  Center back...deary me.  Right back, we're playing a left back there.  We have depth in midfield, but a lot of them are just copies of each other.  We've got plenty of players who can recycle the ball and give it simple, but do we have many that can play in a number 10 role effectively?  Do we have a current, ready-made replacement for Scott Brown?  What about wingers?  After Fraser went home, we essentially had Forrest and Phillips - one didn't play and the other was James Forrest.  And most glaring of all, up front.  We started with 2 up, and inexplicably took one off.  At that point, the only option we had to change things was Steven Fletcher.  I like the guy, but he was far from what we needed.

I know people will come back with all sorts of names, but it's a sad fact that outside of a fairly competitive first choice 11, we are desperately short of proven quality.

[harry94]

Just now, Sergeant Wilson said:

Since 1998.

From an age where I could really consciously remember, I'd say that I could really only consider Smith and McLeish as competent in the role - a group with France & Italy is just the football gods taking the piss. Strachan isn't appallingly bad but he's made massive glaring errors that have been the difference.

Burley and Levein were comical and an absolute embarrassment in the role. We really had no chance of achieving anything with either of them.

I really think management has been a huge issue and the SFA have been far far too passive on the issue. I don't expect them to get it right all the time but giving these guys repeated backing and ignoring massive structural issues (i.e. being absolutely despised by the whole squad and appalling performance). I'd give them the benefit of the doubt for supporting Strachan through this campaign but they've got to act.

[D.A.F.C]

Vogts got us further than any other manager since Brown yet he is incompetent. Is it not this mindset that needs to change also? How were Smith and McLeish better? They utilised all his players he brought through.
[emoji38]

[harry94]

4 minutes ago, D.A.F.C said:

Vogts got us further than any other manager since Brown yet he is incompetent. Is it not this mindset that needs to change also? How were Smith and McLeish better? They utilised all his players he brought through.

To be honest, I can't really remember enough about Voigts and Brown to really give a fair articulation on it.

I would say though, it is all context. Football is not a black and white issue and if you're in a 7 team group with both recent world cup finalists and a world cup quarterfinalist, a great manager is still expecting a miracle to get through that with even a top-level Scotland side.

My understanding was that Voigts had a much much easier task in achieving the playoffs than any managers after him (a 5 team group with the lower seeds being Iceland, Lithuania and Faroe Islands). The World Cup group was a more typical Scotland draw in having a couple of countries closer to our level and it all went bad in a few games. I can't recall how things specifically went at the time but at a glance, that qualifying campaign seemed a particularly bad disaster.

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

We have one of these 'everything has to change' discussions every 2 years after every failure.

Bottom line....the manager's job is simple. He has to get the players performing better than the sum of their parts. Do that and we'll qualify.

Brown and Roxburgh did it. McLeish did it in the short time he was there (to an extent). O'Neill definitely does it for Norn Iron, and Coleman did it for ales last year (even though Wales have a couple of world class players). 

That's all a Scotland manager has to do. Take the players available, find a system that suits, and then make them fight to win every individual battle on the pitch.

It's not f*cking rocket science. Just find a manager that can do that.

[thisal]

1 hour ago, D.A.F.C said:

 

It seems obvious to me that we just don't have the talent. Should we not just write off the next two qualifications and play a young side and try lots of new players?

It worked for Vogts to an extent and the ratings don't matter to much as Northern Ireland have shown.

Is it not better to build a solid foundation of youth rather than qualify for a tournament and get pumped anyway?

 

It really didn't. We had a pish easy group for Euro 2004 and still nearly blew it.

1. Germany. They got put out in the group stages at the finals.

2. Scotland. pipped Iceland by one point

3. Iceland very poor team who in the 2006 WC qualifying finished 5th in their group with  4pts a win and a draw v Malta.

4. lithuania beat us. Also finished 5th in 2006

5. Faroes 1 point, draw with Scotland.

We lost the play off 6-1 on aggregate.

[D.A.F.C]

He took us further than anyone than Brown.

[dogmc]

We have one of these 'everything has to change' discussions every 2 years after every failure.
Bottom line....the manager's job is simple. He has to get the players performing better than the sum of their parts. Do that and we'll qualify.
Brown and Roxburgh did it. McLeish did it in the short time he was there (to an extent). O'Neill definitely does it for Norn Iron, and Coleman did it for ales last year (even though Wales have a couple of world class players). 
That's all a Scotland manager has to do. Take the players available, find a system that suits, and then make them fight to win every individual battle on the pitch.
It's not f*cking rocket science. Just find a manager that can do that.

Exactly this. Structural changes for the long term aside we have had incompetent managers unable to make the best of the talent we do have. As said earlier vogts had an incredibly easy group. Germany were so poor that had we been able to win in faroes n Lithuania we would have won the group. We aren't in need of an ancelotti we just need to organise n drill the guys we have n be at least logical about selections n factics.

[sjc]

1 minute ago, thisal said:

It really didn't. We had a pish easy group for Euro 2004 and still nearly blew it.

1. Germany. They got put out in the group stages at the finals.

2. Scotland. pipped Iceland by one point

3. Iceland very poor team who in the 2006 WC qualifying finished 5th in their group with  4pts a win and a draw v Malta.

4. lithuania beat us. Also finished 5th in 2006

5. Faroes 1 point, draw with Scotland.

In fairness, Vogts was left with absolutely f**k all to work with by Brown.

We need to overhaul the complete youth development system to produce more technical players from primary school age upwards as well as a new National team coach.

[D.A.F.C]

We have one of these 'everything has to change' discussions every 2 years after every failure.
Bottom line....the manager's job is simple. He has to get the players performing better than the sum of their parts. Do that and we'll qualify.
Brown and Roxburgh did it. McLeish did it in the short time he was there (to an extent). O'Neill definitely does it for Norn Iron, and Coleman did it for ales last year (even though Wales have a couple of world class players). 
That's all a Scotland manager has to do. Take the players available, find a system that suits, and then make them fight to win every individual battle on the pitch.
It's not f*cking rocket science. Just find a manager that can do that.

Thing is when Brown was there we had players at the top level.
Hendry calderwood Collins Lambert etc
We have utter shite now

[HibeeJibee]

Every campaign since Vogts left, we've missed out on progression due to dropped points - usually in just 1 tie - versus the bottom or second bottom seeds. It's fine margins, and comes back to management?

Also countries like Northern Ireland, Hungary, Albania etc. qualify without "world class" squads.

[thisal]

9 minutes ago, D.A.F.C said:

He took us further than anyone than Brown.

it was almost impossible not to with the draw he got. But he came very close to blowing it.

[Aladdin]

Vogts was left with f**k all to work with as all browns boys retired when he left. He had to rely on young players and Smith and McLeish benefited from that in 2006-7 when we managed to land about the hardest group ever seen - world champions, finalists and a very good Ukraine side containing Tymoschuk, Shevchenko and Voronin.