thisal Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 2 hours ago, ayrmad said: Would we not be better judging Icelands U21s of today in 5 or 6 years, I really couldn't give a f**k how well any of the unders do unless it translates to producing senior players. Definitely. But the point remains the performance of the current full team doesn't necessarily represent the current youth system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 1 hour ago, thisal said: Definitely. But the point remains the performance of the current full team doesn't necessarily represent the current youth system Constantly starting again must surely represent it to some degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumigoo Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Compare/contrast: " Evidence for that is the fact that in the 90s, only about half of the players that were making their national team debut also belonged to the top teams in Germany when they were 15 or 16 years old. The others were made up of regional top talents, but only became top-class players at a later stage in their development. It’s important to avoid focusing on just a small group of talents and thus discounting a large bulk of talented youngsters. "The Deutsche Way If you haven’t read ‘Das Reboot’ I would highly recommend it. Basically makes you feel shit at how amateurish we are compared to others our there. A mixture of the German and Icelandic models would be perfect for us but it won’t happen. Scottish football (according to the bosses) ‘survives’ on the strength of the top two (and it still is two) not the investment in the riff-raff of the footballing outposts elsewhere in Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumigoo Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 9 hours ago, ancientnoise said: I haven't, no. Is there an link to this? - -- 4 dink on Amazon. Ordered. Totally agree with the rest of your post. Whenever I return from Germany I get a sinking feeling when I see what's going on here. Clearly comparisons of what we have with Germany will bring up issues on a number of counts, but it's the differences in principle, the mindset and the general approach - which could be transferred to a country of any size with the will to do it - that stands out. "Amateurish" is the perfect word for our version of youth development. Good man. As I said, you will be left feeling highly embarrassed by our own failings. Germany of course have more money and more people but there is no reason why we couldn't do something similar to them but on a smaller scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Master Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 It looks like Dundee is trying to meet the Project Brave criteria, with six new posts advertised. https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/dundee-fc-post-six-youth-academy-job-vacancies-meet-sfa-project-brave-criteria/ Now watch as the goalposts are moved yet again to ensure that only the “correct” clubs are part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumigoo Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 48 minutes ago, The Master said: It looks like Dundee is trying to meet the Project Brave criteria, with six new posts advertised. https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/dundee-fc-post-six-youth-academy-job-vacancies-meet-sfa-project-brave-criteria/ Now watch as the goalposts are moved yet again to ensure that only the “correct” clubs are part of it. I noticed that it mentions the salaries of these posts are dependant on experience etc. The criteria is six full time posts but there is no standardised wage for these types of jobs. I wonder how much some clubs (like Dundee) might offer compared to maybe a Hearts or a Hibs? The thing that will hold most teams back will be the sustainability of the facilities and the staffing. What happens if, for example, Dundee (we can but hope) get relegated then have to cut costs? These kinds of posts would be the first to go. Some of the 'big boys' would (in theory) never have to worry about this because their squads and resources might only get stronger and stronger. I hope the teams who are trying all they can to reach as high a level as possible are not over-stretching themselves in the process. I'm sure the SFA would be quick to wash their hands of any club who got into a bit of financial difficulty based on their investment in trying to reach the upper tiers of Project Brave. Edit - Much like some of the clubs that spent hundreds of thousands on bloody seats for the absolutely ridiculous minimum capacity idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim McLean's Ghost Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 52 minutes ago, The Master said: It looks like Dundee is trying to meet the Project Brave criteria, with six new posts advertised. https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/dundee-fc-post-six-youth-academy-job-vacancies-meet-sfa-project-brave-criteria/ Now watch as the goalposts are moved yet again to ensure that only the “correct” clubs are part of it. Those posts are what is needed for the current Elite Youth set up. Dundee like St Johnstone are outside the current Elite Youth program. Although I think St Johnstone have continued to invest in all the current criteria of jobs where as it seems Dundee have done nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludo*1 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 John Nelms was originally vehemently against Project Brave. I wonder what has changed that we've not heard about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim McLean's Ghost Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 17 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said: John Nelms was originally vehemently against Project Brave. I wonder what has changed that we've not heard about. If it is going to be an elite group of 16 it would be an absolute minter if Dundee were on the outside because they didn't have something as basic as a Head of Academy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumigoo Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 9 hours ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said: If it is going to be an elite group of 16 it would be an absolute minter if Dundee were on the outside because they didn't have something as basic as a Head of Academy. There will not be 16 elite academies. The issue everyone has is that the entire infrastructure required to be elite is way beyond most clubs and will end up with only four or five who can properly sustain elite status. The SFA said that they would allow a maximum of 16 but the expectations placed on clubs is way beyond what can be achieved by most (the sustainability part is key). We will probably end up with 5 or 6 at most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsr Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 Why don't they just cut to the chase, make it two elite clubs and give all the money to Celtic and Sevco? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raidernation Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 They already try to do that don't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim McLean's Ghost Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 7 hours ago, stumigoo said: There will not be 16 elite academies. The issue everyone has is that the entire infrastructure required to be elite is way beyond most clubs and will end up with only four or five who can properly sustain elite status. The SFA said that they would allow a maximum of 16 but the expectations placed on clubs is way beyond what can be achieved by most (the sustainability part is key). We will probably end up with 5 or 6 at most. That isn't going to happen. The SFA don't have the votes and Stewart Regan will be chased out of Hampden if he thinks he can unilaterally cut Elite Youth to 5 academies. That form of Project Brave is not going to happen. What is probably going to happen is what was the original compromise of 16 elite academies. --- Celtic, Aberdeen, Rangers, Motherwell Hearts, Hibs, Highland Academy, Forth Valley Academy Hamilton, Kilmarnock, St Johnstone, Dundee United Dundee, Fife Academy, St Mirren and Partick Thistle --- The SFA might not want 3 academies in Tayside and there were suspicions that St Johnstone were omitted from the top grouping in the previous system because the SFA wanted them to join up with Dundee. So Dundee might get bumped for Ayr United if they don't actually do something to meet the current criteria. Nothing in those Dundee job postings are going to meet the strict requirements that would cut academies to or 6. The other clubs outside this group would receive no funding and probably end up closing their youth program like Dumbarton have or try and join up with a bigger club (i.e. Ayr and Killie or Morton and St Mirren) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted October 18, 2017 Author Share Posted October 18, 2017 That isn't going to happen. The SFA don't have the votes and Stewart Regan will be chased out of Hampden if he thinks he can unilaterally cut Elite Youth to 5 academies. That form of Project Brave is not going to happen. What is probably going to happen is what was the original compromise of 16 elite academies. --- Celtic, Aberdeen, Rangers, Motherwell Hearts, Hibs, Highland Academy, Forth Valley Academy Hamilton, Kilmarnock, St Johnstone, Dundee United Dundee, Fife Academy, St Mirren and Partick Thistle --- The SFA might not want 3 academies in Tayside and there were suspicions that St Johnstone were omitted from the top grouping in the previous system because the SFA wanted them to join up with Dundee. So Dundee might get bumped for Ayr United if they don't actually do something to meet the current criteria. Nothing in those Dundee job postings are going to meet the strict requirements that would cut academies to or 6. The other clubs outside this group would receive no funding and probably end up closing their youth program like Dumbarton have or try and join up with a bigger club (i.e. Ayr and Killie or Morton and St Mirren) Told everyone colt teams would never enter senior Cup competitions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYD1997 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 18 hours ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said: That isn't going to happen. The SFA don't have the votes and Stewart Regan will be chased out of Hampden if he thinks he can unilaterally cut Elite Youth to 5 academies. That form of Project Brave is not going to happen. What is probably going to happen is what was the original compromise of 16 elite academies. --- Celtic, Aberdeen, Rangers, Motherwell Hearts, Hibs, Highland Academy, Forth Valley Academy Hamilton, Kilmarnock, St Johnstone, Dundee United Dundee, Fife Academy, St Mirren and Partick Thistle --- The SFA might not want 3 academies in Tayside and there were suspicions that St Johnstone were omitted from the top grouping in the previous system because the SFA wanted them to join up with Dundee. So Dundee might get bumped for Ayr United if they don't actually do something to meet the current criteria. Nothing in those Dundee job postings are going to meet the strict requirements that would cut academies to or 6. The other clubs outside this group would receive no funding and probably end up closing their youth program like Dumbarton have or try and join up with a bigger club (i.e. Ayr and Killie or Morton and St Mirren) You do understand that one of the main criteria outside of coaching is facilities? Each club has to have their own facilities or have a service agreement with a set venue. At the moment Fife do not have that. Aberdeen have already have the rules bent for this as it was originally supposed to be their own facilities (lennoxtown, murray park, even Herriot watt uni for hearts where it is purpose built areas for them) For the other academy's forth valley play at stirling and the Highland academy are new but from my understanding have somewhere set already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsr Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 20 hours ago, Raidernation said: They already try to do that don't they? Yeah, but I don't understand why they bother keeping up this so-thin-it-'s-practically-invisible pretence of fair competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staggie52 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 1 hour ago, NYD1997 said: the Highland academy are new but from my understanding have somewhere set already If by new you mean was established 15 years ago and has operated two centres since 2006, then I agree with you.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7-2 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 3 hours ago, nsr said: Yeah, but I don't understand why they bother keeping up this so-thin-it-'s-practically-invisible pretence of fair competition. Probably because there are so many fans that are naive and/or blinkered they just can't suss out what's really going on. How anyone can think Scottish football is the slightest bit fair after 2012 is unbelievable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsr Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 1 hour ago, 7-2 said: Probably because there are so many fans that are naive and/or blinkered they just can't suss out what's really going on. How anyone can think Scottish football is the slightest bit fair after 2012 is unbelievable. I don't think the vast majority of people would even care if it was openly admitted to be a fix and a farce. Sevco and Celtic fans already believe their two clubs (OK, one club and one clumpany), and one achieving mastery over the other, are all that matters. If the powers that be actually came out and admitted "Yes, that is all we care about too and we are doing everything in our power to maintain that status quo" the Celvconians would probably just shrug and carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverWolfe Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Sevco and Celtic fans already believe their two clubs (OK, one club and one clumpany), and one achieving mastery over the other, are all that matters. Do we? I don't remember ever thinking that but you obviously seem to know better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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