Project Brave rumbles on..

[Notadoctor]

 

[Jagsman411971]

5 hours ago, glasgow-sheep said:

Surely we should be looking at Iceland.  Do they not have a ridiculous number of UEFA qualified coaches and indoor pitches.  They didn't restrict access, they ensured all kids, at what ever ability level, had access to the best.

Obviously in a country like Scotland, 15x bigger, the cost to implications are significant but surely the general principle is one we could follow?

"No, for f**k sake, no. I wish to f**k people would stop asking us to look at  Iceland, or copy the sodding Belgians. F**k that, what works for them, won't work for us, it's a completely different situation. I mean, back in the late 90's it was all "look at  the French", then it was "copy the Spaniards or the f**king Germans".  Look at the Welsh, they have produced world class players for years, but never managed to get anywhere. Now though, everything has fallen into place for them, they qualified for the Euro's, and even got to the semi's. Even Northern Ireland qualified, and might even qualify for the World Cup. These 2 countries managed to do that with piss poor domestic leagues, so why should we not be able to replicate that up here? Why do all you greetin faced c**ts not use them as an example to follow?"

 

This is an excerpt from a response given by SFA Supremo, Stewart Regan,  when a reporter put the question to him " Have you heard of Iceland you fanny. The country, not the shop?"

[ICTChris]

Scotland isn't Iceland but, as said above, the general principle of increasing the number of qualified coaches working with all kids will surely only be positive for the standard of Scottish youth players?  The difficulty seems to be placing where this coaching takes place.  I've read about Iceland that every kid who turns up for practice at their local park gets a UEFA qualified coach regardless of whether they are a boy or a girl or display aptitude.  Gradually the players are streamed by ability and the better ones can progress.

Dunning's posts have perfectly summed up the issue with Brave - they seem to think that hoarding money to elite academies (concentrated with the richest clubs who can most afford to pay for it anyway) will improve things.   Surely widening access is better - look at initiatives like the Edinburgh Helping Hands clubs or the coaching groups that Andy McLaren has set up in Glasgow.

[ayrmad]

25 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

Scotland isn't Iceland but, as said above, the general principle of increasing the number of qualified coaches working with all kids will surely only be positive for the standard of Scottish youth players?  The difficulty seems to be placing where this coaching takes place.  I've read about Iceland that every kid who turns up for practice at their local park gets a UEFA qualified coach regardless of whether they are a boy or a girl or display aptitude.  Gradually the players are streamed by ability and the better ones can progress.

Dunning's posts have perfectly summed up the issue with Brave - they seem to think that hoarding money to elite academies (concentrated with the richest clubs who can most afford to pay for it anyway) will improve things.   Surely widening access is better - look at initiatives like the Edinburgh Helping Hands clubs or the coaching groups that Andy McLaren has set up in Glasgow.

You need indoor facilities to go with the extra coaches, I liked the fact that the more rural areas nurtured every kid from their area not this nonsense of big teams trekking kids about the country to big teams,  surely it would be better to have youngsters working on ball skills for an extra 6 hours a week rather than sitting in a minibus to Glasgow or wherever and back.

I'm totally expecting us to continue putting kids into the hands of people that can't kick their own arse, it's cheaper and it suits the big teams.

[Guest Moomintroll]

If unlimited money and resources was the answer, China would win the World Cup next year. Dunnings post has absolutely nailed it and unfortunately no one in any position of power would ever listen to common sense.

[Dick Van Dyke]

7 hours ago, Tartantony said:

You don't know me so don't presume that I don't care about Scottish football. I don't know how many times I need to say on here that I care more about Scottish football than I do Celtic. I attend other league games in Scotland when Celtic are not playing because I love Scottish football, I'm constantly in arguments with OF fans who think Scottish football is a mickey mouse league. I personally will always take the option that is best for Scottish football over what is best for Celtic. You assuming that us OF fans are all exactly the same is down to the fact that you hate the two clubs so much. There are a lot of folk on here that are the same.  While I love Scottish football, I will still defend Celtic where required, especially on here where so many are incapable of objectivity. To say that in 10 years we haven't produced any players is just incorrect and I am going to make sure I prove that sort of point wrong.

This myth again. Celtic did not sign players to weaken other teams. We bought players who had shown something and we felt could improve our team. If a player isn't capable of making that step up, either in quality or mentality, then that's the players fault not Celtics. Look at Jonny Hayes at the moment, outstanding at Aberdeen and has come to us and been given 5 or 6 chances and been shockingly poor, completely out of his depth. On here, we will be blamed for ruining him and letting him rot on the bench to weaken Aberdeen but in reality he just doesn't have the mentality for the step up.

How can Hayes be outstanding at Aberdeen then out of his depth at Celtic when they play against the exact same opposition in the league? That makes no sense. It's not as if he's moved up a league 

[Guest Moomintroll]

This myth again. Celtic did not sign players to weaken other teams. We bought players who had shown something and we felt could improve our team. If a player isn't capable of making that step up, either in quality or mentality, then that's the players fault not Celtics. Look at Jonny Hayes at the moment, outstanding at Aberdeen and has come to us and been given 5 or 6 chances and been shockingly poor, completely out of his depth. On here, we will be blamed for ruining him and letting him rot on the bench to weaken Aberdeen but in reality he just doesn't have the mentality for the step up.

Much as it pains me to admit it tartantony does make a lot of good points, yes Celtic will always get the best young players due to their perceived standing in the game and the glamour that attracts them but then again how has that worked out for Chelsea? There does appear to be quite a few decent young players coming out of their Academy and this will be to the benefit of the National team as long as they get games at the highest level and continue to progress. All things being equal, as dunning has pointed out, the safety net being removed with regards to the late developers being brought through elsewhere will hurt Scottish football but we cannot blame Celtic for that, that is solely down to the SFA being unfit for purpose once again.

[realmadrid]

22 hours ago, RedEd said:

St Johnstone may have won an u17s league but it wasn't the elite level league as they aren't currently part of it.  From what I hear the SFA seem to be making up  criteria as they go along and shifting goalposts as they see fit. They are only interested in the chosen few and don't seem to realise how damaging this will be to the vast majority of clubs.  It could also mean that boys from large parts of Scotland are disadvantaged because they don't live in or near Glasgow, Edinburgh or Aberdeen. There are currently two elite academies in Ayrshire, which means that boys can go to school, train and play locally. And let's face it neither Murray Park or Lennoxtown are convenient locations for boys coming up from Ayrshire to train 3 nights a week or whatever it is (and yes, I know some do but that's not the point).

The second tier grade academies, which are likely to be a number of the current elite academies,  will still be able to play against the chosen few but how long before their funding is reduced and shifted to the big boys and they are effectively relegated?

Correct a couple of years ago despite meeting all the criteria and having better facilities etc than Ayr United our bid to join the elite level was rejected yet Ayr (who had someone on the committee) were accepted.  I wonder how that worked!

However under the current system the 17's teams can play elite teams on the free weekends and when you have a team like last years 17's Saints were not short of requests for games with Elite level teams and as far as I know remained unbeaten against them.

This shows the current status means nothing, will the elite 6 just play against themselves or will situations like the above happen. If they do play the other teams them the rest of us all save cash and players will still need somewhere to play. if however its a closed shop there will be big issues.

Would the best system not be to have the SFA run the whole thing with regional teams that are nothing to do with any of the clubs running teams up to the age of 16, when those clubs who paid into the system them having a right to "draft" the best players.

 

[RedEd]

40 minutes ago, realmadrid said:

Correct a couple of years ago despite meeting all the criteria and having better facilities etc than Ayr United our bid to join the elite level was rejected yet Ayr (who had someone on the committee) were accepted.  I wonder how that worked!

 

 

I think your way off here matey. I am unaware of anyone from Ayr United being on said committee, and even if they were the SFA wouldn't be as stupid to allow them to take part in the decision making process. As for facilities, perhaps, but there is a bit more to elite level than just that. It's about having the right people, with the right qualifications within the right structure. Maybe that's where St Johnstone fell down.

As for your suggestion about regional teams that's exactly what happens with Fife and Forth Valley. But how do you decide on the regions? Ayrshire may be considered too small, so would we join with Renfrewshire / Inverclyde / D&G? What about Partick Thistle, because the bigot brothers would never agree to be part of that structure? As a  football fan I want to see boys come through the club systems, not from some draft nonsense that the big clubs would still dominate.  And as an Ayr United fan I'm immensely proud that we now have a player being picked regularly for the Scotland u16 squad.

 

[realmadrid]

I think your way off here matey. I am unaware of anyone from Ayr United being on said committee, and even if they were the SFA wouldn't be as stupid to allow them to take part in the decision making process. As for facilities, perhaps, but there is a bit more to elite level than just that. It's about having the right people, with the right qualifications within the right structure. Maybe that's where St Johnstone fell down.
As for your suggestion about regional teams that's exactly what happens with Fife and Forth Valley. But how do you decide on the regions? Ayrshire may be considered too small, so would we join with Renfrewshire / Inverclyde / D&G? What about Partick Thistle, because the bigot brothers would never agree to be part of that structure? As a  football fan I want to see boys come through the club systems, not from some draft nonsense that the big clubs would still dominate.  And as an Ayr United fan I'm immensely proud that we now have a player being picked regularly for the Scotland u16 squad.
 

I know several people involved in our application and we ticked all the boxes and more. There was however a feeling from the start that certain teams would be selected (Ayr being one of them) and the exact teams were in the end. The whole project Brave makes the application of the past pointless now and our 17s were a match if not better than any of the elite teams last year so how elite the set up actually is is open to question.
Local talent should be the key and I'd love to see a 25 or 30 mile limit on the distance boys can travel to sign Pro Youth. At one point we were shipping bus loads of boys up from Glasgow while Perthshire lads were heading the other way which was madness.

[coprolite]

even if they were the SFA wouldn't be as stupid to allow them to take part in the decision making process.
 

Yes they would.

They are very very stupid.

[NYD1997]

19 hours ago, RedEd said:

I think your way off here matey. I am unaware of anyone from Ayr United being on said committee, and even if they were the SFA wouldn't be as stupid to allow them to take part in the decision making process.

 

I think you'll find he is spot on. To be exact it was one of the main people on the committee.... In fact if i am correct if you put the Ayr and saints "offers" together. Saints one far out matched Ayr's in every area including qualified coaches

[Alan Stubbs]

On 10/10/2017 at 22:18, Dick Van Dyke said:

How can Hayes be outstanding at Aberdeen then out of his depth at Celtic when they play against the exact same opposition in the league? That makes no sense. It's not as if he's moved up a league 

at this.

Of course someone can look out of their depth moving from one team to a better one in the same league. I'm sure there are examples of it from every league in world football. In most leagues, there are probably examples of it happening every season.

Being as good or better than most players in the league doesn't mean a player won't stand if there are 10 much better players in his team.

 

[Ross.]

20 hours ago, realmadrid said:

Would the best system not be to have the SFA run the whole thing with regional teams that are nothing to do with any of the clubs running teams up to the age of 16, when those clubs who paid into the system them having a right to "draft" the best players.

Not really sure the draft thing would work outside of the US franchise style system where you don't worry about promotion and relegation. I'm also not sure it would be legal in the UK/Europe because the players would be free to go wherever they wanted and if they didn't want to join the team they were drafted to, there is not really much anyone can do to make them.

The SFA should build facilities and train/employ coaches who are available for everyone. The clubs should build facilities or employ coaches for their own right. If clubs want to hire the SFA facilities and coaches, they can apply to do so like anyone else. The long term aim should be getting as many people playing from as young an age as possible with the best possible facilities and coaching. The SFA should be there to make sure that happens. The clubs will still pick up the players who show potential, the point of the SFA in this being that with increased numbers, better facilities and  higher standard of coaching, there will be more players showing potential. It is then up to the clubs to ensure the potential is lived up to.

Seems to me that the SFA want less to do with it at entry level when they should be the front fucking door.  Their priorities here seem upside down.

[thisal]

On 10/10/2017 at 15:18, glasgow-sheep said:

Surely we should be looking at Iceland.  Do they not have a ridiculous number of UEFA qualified coaches and indoor pitches.  They didn't restrict access, they ensured all kids, at what ever ability level, had access to the best.

Obviously in a country like Scotland, 15x bigger, the cost to implications are significant but surely the general principle is one we could follow?

Icelands U21s are second bottom of their group. I would certainly look at the facilities in Scandinavian countries, but  coaching and tactics evolve. 10 years ago the mantra was copy Holland. We did and made a good job of it. Both country failed to qualify for the last 2 competitions.

[AMMjag]

This was the brainchild of beetroot-faced Brian McClair I believe? I can just imagine him sitting on his lonesome at a desk with a half-drunk bottle of sherry, ranting angrily to himself about 'glorified pub teams'.

[capt_oats]

44 minutes ago, AMMjag said:

This was the brainchild of beetroot-faced Brian McClair I believe? I can just imagine him sitting on his lonesome at a desk with a half-drunk bottle of sherry, ranting angrily to himself about 'glorified pub teams'.

The Project was initiated during McClair's time as performance director, before he realised it was a shite job and chucked it however there's plenty of blame to be passed around rather than laying it all at his doorstep.

The working group who were putting it together were: Roy MacGregor (Ross County), Les Gray (Hamilton Accies), Chris McCart (Celtic), Craig Mulholland (Rangers), Steven Dunn (Aberdeen), Craig Levein (Hearts), George Craig (Hibs), Ian Blair (SPFL), Jim Chapman (Annan), Creag Robertson (Falkirk, now Rangers), Derek Hunter (SFA), Campbell Money (SFA)

Regardless of intentions, it's a carve up plain and simple. An "eight club academy elite" with 7 Premiership clubs plus the SFA represented on the working group...join the fucking dots. It's not even subtle.

Gordon Waddell has been really good on covering this from the start: http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/sfa-spark-civil-war-stewart-9291119

After MacGregor kicked off about it last week it was interesting to read that Championship clubs have been taking a pop at Regan over this as well. It really is pretty wild if Regan and the SFA are effectively pressing on with this against the wishes of the majority of member clubs in Scotland.

Quote

STEWART Regan, the SFA chief executive, has been warned that he is effectively forcing Ladbrokes Championship clubs to put their futures at risk in an attempt to meet criteria for Project Brave. Herald Sport understands that Martin Ritchie, of Falkirk, and Warren Hawke, of Morton, sat down with the SFA supremo at Hampden Park shortly after he returned from Slovenia this weekend to register their concerns on behalf of the entire second tier about what is being expected of them under the association’s ambitious new plans to re-shape their Club Academy Scotland system.

The news comes hot on the heels of suggestions at the weekend that even the top flight is divided about the merits of the association’s new flagship scheme, with Ross County chairman Roy MacGregor – one of the architects of the plan – unhappy about how the plan is unfolding.

With an appeals process already under way, each one of Scotland’s aspiring ‘pro youth’ academies will go before the SFA’s Professional Game Board by the end of this month to learn the fate of their application to be part of this new structure, with the top 16 academies likely to be split between 'elite' academies and those working towards that status, then the rump of all other clubs comprising a third tier.

These decisions will be taken on the strength of criteria such as Measurable Performance Outcomes relating to the amount of first team appearances and Scotland caps, plus numbers of full-time staff and access to certain facilities such as full-size indoor training arenas. There is anger that little heed is paid to exactly how much of a club's turnover that spend comprises, the fact that certain clubs may currently be competitive at a certain age group, or benefit more than others from their proximity to SFA-backed schemes such as the Oriam centre at Heriott-Watt University.

While the so-called ‘big five’ seem likely to be granted elite status – Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs - the future of the scheme may now depend on whether the apparent solidarity between the other Premiershipclubs with their Championship cousins holds. Although the SFA insist that the money currently awarded to the youth academies who don’t make it into the top two levels will be ring fenced, Regan could yet find himself with friends in short supply fenced if such a small number of clubs are perceived to be calling the shots.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/15588166.Scottish_Championship_clubs_express_concerns_over_Project_Brave_and_SFA_chief_Stewart_Regan/

[Insaintee]

On 08/10/2017 at 10:20, stumigoo said:

The whole thing is going to end very badly. You only have to look down south at what has happened with the smaller clubs being decimated both player wise but also financially given that they cannot demand a proper fee for their young players if an elite team want to sign them. The English set up is even worse because despite their success at youth levels the bigger clubs in the Premiership still choose an overseas player most of the time instead of blooding a young English footballer (five out of six academy players are not playing professional football by the age of 21). There are even major concerns regarding the mental health of some of these young players given the immense pressure, initial contracts and then the release without any support after that. What this will do in Scotland is withdraw any financial incentives from clubs to develop their own players and it will allow the two or three bigger teams to essentially have player 'farms' like some of the clubs in England. They sign hundreds of players each year only to ditch 98% of them within a couple of years. You could argue that there might be some benefit because there will be more free agents available who have at least have had 'quality' coaching but that is not meant to be the benefit of something like this.

It is ridiculously expensive for the majority of Scottish teams and I agree with what MacGregor says about Brentford basically ditching their entire youth setup in favour of a 'B' team full of 21-23 year olds who essentially play reserve football in an unofficial capacity against similar teams. I've recently read  Michael Calvin's 'No Hunger in Paradise' which explains in a fantastic way some of the real dangers of these new systems (off topic but I'd recommend any of his books because they are all fantastic).

Will this improve the standard of player in Scotland? In some ways it might but the real danger for me is what it then does to the domestic game and some of the clubs that have spent years developing good, nurturing, productive youth systems living within their means. What next for those clubs?

I'm in no way defending project brave, but the 20+ age group is exactly where things start to go wrong. The idea of ditching the youth team and setting up a finishing school / last chance saloon for kids that get dumped after spending seven years being told they are elite footballers has a certain logic. Some of St Mirren's youth team success has come from picking up OF cast offs like Morgan around age 16 ( I know it's ridiculous that some one can be cast of at that age). So picking up the cast offs and building them up might work well for Brentford and help keep more players in the game. 

The SFA doesn't get the single biggest problem we have is that fewer and fewer kids are playing the game, and few and few are sticking with it. 

[stumigoo]

1 hour ago, Insaintee said:

I'm in no way defending project brave, but the 20+ age group is exactly where things start to go wrong. The idea of ditching the youth team and setting up a finishing school / last chance saloon for kids that get dumped after spending seven years being told they are elite footballers has a certain logic. Some of St Mirren's youth team success has come from picking up OF cast offs like Morgan around age 16 ( I know it's ridiculous that some one can be cast of at that age). So picking up the cast offs and building them up might work well for Brentford and help keep more players in the game. 

The SFA doesn't get the single biggest problem we have is that fewer and fewer kids are playing the game, and few and few are sticking with it. 

The idea of having a 'cast-off' side (obviously you wouldn't sell this to the players as that!) is a sound one but the reality is you might have to pay 12-15 players full-time wages on top of 18 or so you have in your first team. For clubs like Brentford that is okay because you have the money but most Scottish clubs would struggle having even an extra half a dozen players on their books, let alone a full team. Brentford (and others) also have the resources to arrange multiple games across UK and even Europe to test these teams but again Scottish clubs would struggle to fill a fixture list. Obviously if you are only picking up one or two each year then that is different.

I do think that if this goes as far as the SFA want it then it will be pretty much guaranteed that every year you might have a list of players released by these elite clubs who then have to find new employment (possibly elsewhere in Scotland). As you say there are fewer and fewer kids taking football seriously and if you add this incredible pressure in to the mix then you will have more dropping out at crucial ages (and in England you have the problem of many of them having nowhere to go if they do). The worry is you create an environment of "if you can't make it into an elite academy you are basically not going to make it" which goes against basic developmental psychology and the idea that these kids should be given the opportunity to grow and develop naturally. 

[ayrmad]

6 hours ago, thisal said:

Icelands U21s are second bottom of their group. I would certainly look at the facilities in Scandinavian countries, but  coaching and tactics evolve. 10 years ago the mantra was copy Holland. We did and made a good job of it. Both country failed to qualify for the last 2 competitions.

Would we not be better judging Icelands U21s of today in 5 or 6 years, I really couldn't give a f**k how well any of the unders do unless it translates to producing senior players.