RandomGuy. Posted April 7, 2018 Author Share Posted April 7, 2018 I've always wondered about this "who developed the player" chat, as if development ends at 19. Steven Anderson is always filed under Dundee United, because he came through their youth system. He joined us as a teenager miles from being good enough and has developed into a top tier player with us. Why do United get the credit for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 On 4/7/2018 at 11:26, the west curve said: I can think of 12 players that came through the Killie academy playing Premiership football in the last 12 months. There are maybe more but the 12 are, Boyd,Naismith,Bell,Cameron,Graham,Hawkshaw,Wilson,Kiltie,O’Hara,McKenzie,Taylor and Frizzell. I looked at players who have played in the Premiership this season, using transfermarkt.com. Looking at the list you've given Will Graham hasn't played this season and Dean Hawkshaw and Adam Frizzell aren't listed under the Killie squad. It's not perfect and I'm sure that there are things that are missed in terms of the data - I'm not surprised that loan signings could be missed. It's really just about getting a feel for how many players in professional football are being produced by youth systems/academies. On 4/7/2018 at 11:38, RandomGuy. said: I've always wondered about this "who developed the player" chat, as if development ends at 19. Steven Anderson is always filed under Dundee United, because he came through their youth system. He joined us as a teenager miles from being good enough and has developed into a top tier player with us. Why do United get the credit for that? Absolutely agree with this, there are loads of examples of this from my club - Barry Robson would be recorded as a Rangers youth player in this exercise but in terms of his development it was with us that he really became a player, from the age of 18 to 24. As above, it's just an indicative exercise - if a youth system has produced loads of players who have a career in the professional game then I think it's safe to say they are doing something right even if not all of them play for their parent club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Absolutely agree with this, there are loads of examples of this from my club - Barry Robson would be recorded as a Rangers youth player in this exercise but in terms of his development it was with us that he really became a player, from the age of 18 to 24. As above, it's just an indicative exercise - if a youth system has produced loads of players who have a career in the professional game then I think it's safe to say they are doing something right even if not all of them play for their parent club. A key factor to consider is that the elite academy's/bigger clubs also have a far better chance of recruiting players. Start to shine at a smaller club and they'll quickly be trying sign the player up.Are they making better players? Or are they just signing them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestersKTID Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 On 4/7/2018 at 11:26, the west curve said: I can think of 12 players that came through the Killie academy playing Premiership football in the last 12 months. There are maybe more but the 12 are, Boyd,Naismith,Bell,Cameron,Graham,Hawkshaw,Wilson,Kiltie,O’Hara,McKenzie,Taylor and Frizzell. Lewis Clark got an appearance or 2 last season for first team, think he's junior now. Scottish Championship I can think of Chris Johnson, Ashcroft, Slater, Rory Loy. Although slater was at St Mirren before us. Down south we have Muirhead, Kennedy, Kelly and maybe Mckay? We had him before Rangers I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 On 06/04/2018 at 18:00, ICTChris said: I read an interesting article on English academies - http://www.trainingground.guru/articles/academy-audit Mark Crane investigated which Academies were best to send his son to and decided to see which Academies were most successful at creating professional footballers. Manchester Utd were the most, with 70 players playing in the English leagues who were trained in the Utd Academy. Cheltenham Town were the worst with only one player (former ICT striker Marley Watkins) playing professional football after attending their academy. I thought it might be interesting to do a similar exercise for Scottish clubs so I did it for the top two divisions. Project Brave Level Premiership Championship Total Celtic Elite 15 13 28 Heart of Midlothian Elite 11 11 22 Rangers Elite 4 15 19 Hibernian Elite 12 6 18 Hamilton Academical Elite 12 4 16 Aberdeen Elite 6 8 14 Motherwell Elite 7 7 14 Kilmarnock Elite 8 5 13 Dundee United Progressive 7 5 12 Livingston 7 5 12 St Mirren Progressive 5 7 12 Falkirk Progressive 1 9 10 St Johnstone Progressive 6 3 9 Partick Thistle Progressive 3 5 8 Queen of the South 1 7 8 Dunfermline Athletic Performance 1 6 7 Inverness Caledonian Thistle Progressive 2 4 6 Morton Performance 5 5 Ross County Progressive 2 3 5 Dundee Performance 4 4 Airdrieonians 3 3 Ayr United Projgressive 3 3 Raith Rovers Performance 3 3 Cowdenbeath Performance 1 1 2 Montrose 2 2 Queen's Park Performance 1 1 2 Clyde 1 1 Elgin City 1 1 Stenhousemuir Progressive 1 1 Stranraer 1 1 Albion Rovers 0 Alloa Athletic 0 Annan Athletic 0 Arbroath 0 Berwick Rangers 0 Brechin City 0 Dumbarton 0 East Fife Performance 0 Forfar Athletic 0 Peterhead 0 Stirling Albion Progressive 0 The clubs selected for the Elite do appear to produce significant numbers of professional players, albeit a lot playing at a level below their club (the main pathway for Rangers youth players seems to be signing for Dumbarton). Good work that's above and beyond the call of duty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinc Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 On 27/12/2017 at 16:52, Bazil85 said: The best way forward for me is Celtic and Sevco leaving Scotland. Celtic are so far ahead right now and soon enough Sevco will be up there as well and we'll be back to the 90s and 00s of two teams winning the league dozens of points above everyone else. In an ever more connected world this will be disastrous for those teams because they'll continue to fall further and further behind European competition. We're already seeing youngsters that have more interest in the EPL and Spanish league than back home, that trend will continue. They'll fall further behind in Europe than they already are and I'm not talking the big boys in Europe, they'll fall out of the second tier teams as well. Them leaving and going to either England or some kind of Atlantic league ticks a lot of boxes for me and I think it's something fans of these teams should actively be campaigning for. (Obviously Celtic wouldn't until they secure 10 in a row) The stumbling block is obviously, who would take them? Celtic and Sevco can reach their potential. They are huge teams that can be global power houses. A lot of fans must want some actual competition and not winning a league where realistically they'll only ever have each other for competition on a consistent basis Yes Scottish football would have less money but right now all the other clubs are just making up numbers. I'd much rather less money and competition. Put all the games on at 3pm on a Saturday and have us a smaller scale, exciting competitive league structure It would help the development of Scottish players. Sevco and Celtic would still have youth structures developing players, they'd be tested against better opponents week in week out and a level below that in the Scottish leagues we would see more younger players playing as money would be less. Don't see much of a downside (for fans) and why fans of any team wouldn't find this attractive. To clarify though, I don't see this happening in a million years. Football is now all about money and the powers in Scotland would never allow it/ England wouldn't want them/ Atlantic league won't happen. we are so negative in our attitudes to our football, unfortunately the SFA / SPFL etc are exactly the same, they don't give two hoots about anything other than getting a few quid for 4 Old firm fixtures per year. We lack any decent promotion of our league and that fault lies squarely with the powers (Muppets) in charge. Every league in Europe is similar in that there is only a small amount teams can win the league,, pretty much thanks to UEFA and the hallowed champions league, the amount money given to a team competing in that is ridiculous and until that changes Scottish top league and most in Europe are going to be the same Spain - Barca or Real wins pretty much every year, odd occasion Athletico might challenge France - PSG will win it for next 10 years + Italy - Juve + 1 or 2 others who haven't messed up their finances Germany - Bayern - same as france Portugal - Porto / Benfica, and occasionally Sporting Netherlands - Ajax / PSG occasionally Feynoord taking smaller ones Austria - RB Salzburg - think on 4/5 in a row, challenged occasionally by Vienna teams Switzerland - Basle cant recall last time they didn't win it Belguim - Anderlet nearly every year - Brugge give them a challenge now and again lets go smaller Belarus - Bate Borisov - any other team ever won that league could go on through all the leagues and find it very similar in that or or 2 mayb 3 teams challenging for the league over last 20 years, and its solely down to champions league money What needs is more promotion of our league, get better sponsors / tv money etc, as the ineptitude shown by the governing bodies of Scottish football is comical,, sky sports can manage to promote the hell out of a sH**fest such as Stoke v Burnley game on a sunday afternoon, why our muppets, cant even get a fixture list done all these countries above have far better tv deals / sponsors / infrastructure / match day experience that what we get served. Cant see it ever changing in my lifetime if im perfectly honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazil85 Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 On 4/6/2018 at 18:21, coprolite said: Completely disagree. I want us to win the league by beating them Good luck with that. Even if you did, as seen in the past it's once in a blue moon and with money now it's going to be even less likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 On 16/04/2018 at 16:56, Bazil85 said: Good luck with that. Even if you did, as seen in the past it's once in a blue moon and with money now it's going to be even less likely. You're the one that said Celtic and Rangers could be global powerhouses You can't start criticising others for a lack of realism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 On 16/04/2018 at 16:56, Bazil85 said: Good luck with that. Even if you did, as seen in the past it's once in a blue moon and with money now it's going to be even less likely. we had the opportunity against Delia's celtic. we will have it again. keep the faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazil85 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 20 hours ago, topcat(The most tip top) said: You're the one that said Celtic and Rangers could be global powerhouses You can't start criticising others for a lack of realism If they left Scottish football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazil85 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 20 hours ago, coprolite said: we had the opportunity against Delia's celtic. we will have it again. keep the faith. As I say once in a blue moon. Would much rather have a competitive league a lot more regularly. Rangers and Celtic aren't on a fair playing field because of glory hunting fans. Buses leave Aberdeen to support each half of the bigot brothers on a weekly basis, as they do from Paisley, Kilmarnock, Boarders, Edinburgh and just about everywhere else. £££ is king and their grip on Scottish football won't be undone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 15 minutes ago, Bazil85 said: As I say once in a blue moon. Would much rather have a competitive league a lot more regularly. Rangers and Celtic aren't on a fair playing field because of glory hunting fans. Buses leave Aberdeen to support each half of the bigot brothers on a weekly basis, as they do from Paisley, Kilmarnock, Boarders, Edinburgh and just about everywhere else. £££ is king and their grip on Scottish football won't be undone. As a great philosopher once said: ”trying is the first step on the road to failure “ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 2 hours ago, Bazil85 said: If they left Scottish football. Indeed They could be the next Newcastle United or 1 FC Nuremburg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazil85 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 On 4/20/2018 at 17:22, topcat(The most tip top) said: Indeed They could be the next Newcastle United or 1 FC Nuremburg I think I'd probably struggle to name more than 20 teams in world football with a bigger fan base and potential than Rangers and Celtic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, Bazil85 said: I think I'd probably struggle to name more than 20 teams in world football with a bigger fan base and potential than Rangers and Celtic. Because they're next door to Paisley they appear bigger to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suspect Device Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 24 minutes ago, Bazil85 said: I think I'd probably struggle to name more than 20 teams in world football with a bigger fan base and potential than Rangers and Celtic. Hard thing to quantify. http://uk.businessinsider.com/the-20-most-popular-rich-list-football-teams-on-social-media-2017-1/#2-real-madrid-1595-million-followers-19 http://bleacherreport.com/articles/865275-manchester-united-and-15-best-supported-clubs-in-world-football https://www.soccerladuma.co.za/news/articles/categories/world-news/10-best-supported-clubs-in-the-world/225410 Kerala Blasters are better supported than Rangers. I'll have to remember that name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazil85 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 3 hours ago, topcat(The most tip top) said: Because they're next door to Paisley they appear bigger to you. Are you telling me Rangers and Celtic aren't sizable clubs? I think you confuse the money some clubs have with fan base. Look at Man City 15 years ago, do you think they had a bigger following that Celtic or Rangers? Just shows you what exposure and money can do. Same could happen to either club if they moved to England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazil85 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 3 hours ago, Suspect Device said: Hard thing to quantify. http://uk.businessinsider.com/the-20-most-popular-rich-list-football-teams-on-social-media-2017-1/#2-real-madrid-1595-million-followers-19 http://bleacherreport.com/articles/865275-manchester-united-and-15-best-supported-clubs-in-world-football https://www.soccerladuma.co.za/news/articles/categories/world-news/10-best-supported-clubs-in-the-world/225410 Kerala Blasters are better supported than Rangers. I'll have to remember that name. Yep, it depends how you quantify it. I'm not talking about finance because we all know what state Scottish football is in when it comes to money. Club size-wise they are top 20 in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Bazil85 said: Are you telling me Rangers and Celtic aren't sizable clubs? I think you confuse the money some clubs have with fan base. Look at Man City 15 years ago, do you think they had a bigger following that Celtic or Rangers? Just shows you what exposure and money can do. Same could happen to either club if they moved to England. 15 years ago you could argue either way about whether Man City had a bigger fan base than Celtic or Rangers. They were about to move into the new City of manchester Stadium where they'd draw about 46,000 despite winning 5 home games all season and not having won a trophy in 33 years. You'd have had a far harder time arguing that City had a bigger following than Newcastle United though And while the last 15 years of Man City's history illustrate the technically possible best case scenario the 15 before that show what the worst might be. Or rather would show the worst if we ignore the last 15 years of Leeds United Celtic and Rangers are sizable clubs but there are a lot of "sizable" clubs out there. There's certainly more of them than there are middle eastern sovereign wealth funds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazil85 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 53 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said: 15 years ago you could argue either way about whether Man City had a bigger fan base than Celtic or Rangers. They were about to move into the new City of manchester Stadium where they'd draw about 46,000 despite winning 5 home games all season and not having won a trophy in 33 years. You'd have had a far harder time arguing that City had a bigger following than Newcastle United though And while the last 15 years of Man City's history illustrate the technically possible best case scenario the 15 before that show what the worst might be. Or rather would show the worst if we ignore the last 15 years of Leeds United Celtic and Rangers are sizable clubs but there are a lot of "sizable" clubs out there. There's certainly more of them than there are middle eastern sovereign wealth funds My point all along has been they have the potential to be two of the biggest clubs in the world if they went down south. I then defined that as top 20. If you don't think they have the potential to rival teams like Man City with the proper investment and platform then fine. I don't think top 20 is pie in the sky given their fan numbers and interest in the fixture (yes interest has dropped recently but I'm talking potential) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.