Bazil85 Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 51 minutes ago, Loonytoons said: Of course fitness and diet are important but they don't make poor footballers great. I'm pretty sure our failure to produce outstanding players is not because our fitness coaches and dieticians aren't good at their jobs. You state that football has evolved towards fitness and coaching but we've been doing that for years now without any obvious improvement. Simply blaming poor coaching doesn't make sense either, surely a few of the recent or current coaches are actually very good at their trade so we should be seeing the odd top player popping up. Look at the number of quality young players that have turned into nearly men in Scotland in recent years. They haven't went onto the finished article that's good enough to be the class kind of players you get now in other countries. There's no way it's went from we used to produce quality players to we produce zero quality players. It's all to do with being the full package and that includes coaching and nurturing talent, football has moved on and we've been left behind. 20, 30, 40 years ago you could go far in this business on your talent alone. Now talent isn't enough, you need to develop that talent and work on all other aspects of being an athlete. That's the only reason I was disputing your point about the players you mentioned. I don't think if anyone of them came through football now in the same way they did back then they'd be the same world class level... Unless they had the coaching (or better) than we do now. Your point was 'Did Dalglish, Jinky, Baxter, Law et al have the kind of coaching kids have now-a-days?' I'm saying no they didn't but if they were playing today without it they wouldn't be superstar players. They'd be far from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loonytoons Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 Look at the number of quality young players that have turned into nearly men in Scotland in recent years. They haven't went onto the finished article that's good enough to be the class kind of players you get now in other countries. There's no way it's went from we used to produce quality players to we produce zero quality players. It's all to do with being the full package and that includes coaching and nurturing talent, football has moved on and we've been left behind. 20, 30, 40 years ago you could go far in this business on your talent alone. Now talent isn't enough, you need to develop that talent and work on all other aspects of being an athlete. The talent isn't there though, not compared to the better nations.Watch our national side on the attack...Pass....control....pass...........control......pass.Watch the likes of Spain or Germany....Pass..pass..pass..pass....No second touches, no time for the opposition to close down.That's not coaching that brings that on, it is an intrinsic skill of the player honed over years of just hours and hours with a ball at your feet.Sort of what we used to do when we had world class players.I'm not saying DON'T have coaches and fitness programmes, obviously they help but the main basic footballing skills are learned by actually spending time doing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokiejohn Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 I found this article interesting on what Scotland coaches are looking for in young players . I don’t think it’s all doom and gloom and there is talent starting to emerge . Harry Cochrane being one of the first to go through the full 4/5 year term of the Performance School set up since they were introduced .http://howtowatchfootball.co.uk/Post/Display/1274?t=the-right-stuff-what-makes-the-modern-footballer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazil85 Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 9 minutes ago, Loonytoons said: The talent isn't there though, not compared to the better nations. Watch our national side on the attack... Pass....control....pass...........control......pass. Watch the likes of Spain or Germany.... Pass..pass..pass..pass.... No second touches, no time for the opposition to close down. That's not coaching that brings that on, it is an intrinsic skill of the player honed over years of just hours and hours with a ball at your feet. Sort of what we used to do when we had world class players. I'm not saying DON'T have coaches and fitness programmes, obviously they help but the main basic footballing skills are learned by actually spending time doing them. No and I agree with you fully on our players now, my point is. Were these players of days gone actually of a standard where they'd be world class in any generation, or better than the players we have now (I'm not talking comparatively, I'm meaning if you had a time machine and brought a 25 year old Kenny D to now, would he be the superstar in 2017?) or was it just easier to be world class because of the attitude to football training back then. As in were we producing world class players then but we're not now? I think it's more likely it was a lot easier for someone with a bit of footballing skill to be world class a generation ago. I'm just saying your point about players of the past not needing as much of the coaching/ fitness network is a bit redundant to me. Because it wasn't needed back then, isn't an argument that there's too much emphasis on it now. What I'm trying to say is football has moved on so not needing it back then, for me does not mean it's less important than people make out now. It's massive. We need a set up that fully supports and pushes players from the first time they see a football right through to first team football. That includes fitness, diet and mindfulness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loonytoons Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 Ah, got you now.Time machine and dropping them in? You're probably right on a 90 minute scale of things.My point is that no matter how good the coaches are or how fit and healthy the players are, if they can't control or pass a ball it's a pointless exercise and a waste of money.Try it the other way round and those fit healthy players would still be, at best, mediocre 40 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazil85 Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 2 hours ago, Loonytoons said: Ah, got you now. Time machine and dropping them in? You're probably right on a 90 minute scale of things. My point is that no matter how good the coaches are or how fit and healthy the players are, if they can't control or pass a ball it's a pointless exercise and a waste of money. Try it the other way round and those fit healthy players would still be, at best, mediocre 40 years ago. We're genetically disadvantage though remember haha. Not sure about the last point though, I think if you put a few players from today with their better conditioning into the past they'd look a lot better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim McLean's Ghost Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 On 11/17/2017 at 13:19, DA Baracus said: SPFL level? A level that ranges from Cowdenbeath to Celtic? From Edinburgh City to Aberdeen? Quite a scale to be using. Not sure if European games are an accurate barometer of how our game is doing, or even if it should be. Aye, there have been shite results in Europe for Scottish teams (and Sevco and Celtic), but there have also been great results for Scottish teams in Europe. Aye the SPFL is also shit at marketing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazil85 Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 13 hours ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said: Aye the SPFL is also shit at marketing. My point was more, how do you market our league? I don't think they are shit at it, I just think it's not marketable at all. Don't think it's realistic to think another group of people could get substatntially more in say TV money for a competition that's just not in the slightest way an actual competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted December 23, 2017 Author Share Posted December 23, 2017 My point was more, how do you market our league? I don't think they are shit at it, I just think it's not marketable at all. Don't think it's realistic to think another group of people could get substatntially more in say TV money for a competition that's just not in the slightest way an actual competition. Absolute pish. The only folk who don't think the league is competitive is morons who think leagues only exist to crown champions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazil85 Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 10 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said: 1 hour ago, Bazil85 said: My point was more, how do you market our league? I don't think they are shit at it, I just think it's not marketable at all. Don't think it's realistic to think another group of people could get substatntially more in say TV money for a competition that's just not in the slightest way an actual competition. Absolute pish. The only folk who don't think the league is competitive is morons who think leagues only exist to crown champions. Celtic budget is larger than every other team in the league combined bar the tribute act. The tribute act have a budget of less than half what Celtic have. There is no competition for our league, the Champions are known before a ball is kicked, the football is rank rotten and the price is already too high for the product quality. Also even if the tributes get to the level Rangers were at with Celtic a coin toss for the title is also not marketable when you have leagues like EPL, La Liga and Bundesliga out there. Of course there will be exceptions in teams winning occasional trophies, do you think St Johnstone, St Mirren, ICT winning an occasional trophy makes us more marketable to worldwide audiences? Do you think another team other than Celtic winning a trophy once in a blue moon constitutes competition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 15 minutes ago, Bazil85 said: Celtic budget is larger than every other team in the league combined bar the tribute act. The tribute act have a budget of less than half what Celtic have. There is no competition for our league, the Champions are known before a ball is kicked, the football is rank rotten and the price is already too high for the product quality. Also even if the tributes get to the level Rangers were at with Celtic a coin toss for the title is also not marketable when you have leagues like EPL, La Liga and Bundesliga out there. Of course there will be exceptions in teams winning occasional trophies, do you think St Johnstone, St Mirren, ICT winning an occasional trophy makes us more marketable to worldwide audiences? Do you think another team other than Celtic winning a trophy once in a blue moon constitutes competition? The breaking of the duopoly saw trophies shared round to an unprecedented degree. It's partial re-establishment saw one club hoover up the lot. Competition is not synonymous with two massive obstacles in everyone's way, as opposed to just one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazil85 Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 15 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: The breaking of the duopoly saw trophies shared round to an unprecedented degree. It's partial re-establishment saw one club hoover up the lot. Competition is not synonymous with two massive obstacles in everyone's way, as opposed to just one. I think the main issue with why no one cares about Scottish football and that we'll never attract much larger values of investment is when three or four different teams win a trophy over a five year period it can be classed as 'unprecedented.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 18 minutes ago, Bazil85 said: I think the main issue with why no one cares about Scottish football and that we'll never attract much larger values of investment is when three or four different teams win a trophy over a five year period it can be classed as 'unprecedented.' As if we'd be able to tap into some vast global market otherwise. It was more than three or four by the way. Do you give a shit about the Hungarian league? What would it require to change that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted December 23, 2017 Author Share Posted December 23, 2017 Celtic budget is larger than every other team in the league combined bar the tribute act. The tribute act have a budget of less than half what Celtic have. There is no competition for our league, the Champions are known before a ball is kicked, the football is rank rotten and the price is already too high for the product quality. Also even if the tributes get to the level Rangers were at with Celtic a coin toss for the title is also not marketable when you have leagues like EPL, La Liga and Bundesliga out there. Of course there will be exceptions in teams winning occasional trophies, do you think St Johnstone, St Mirren, ICT winning an occasional trophy makes us more marketable to worldwide audiences? Do you think another team other than Celtic winning a trophy once in a blue moon constitutes competition? Crowds are rising, near enough every top flight club is promoting their own youngsters and playing them, most games are utterly unpredictable (put a coupon on and see how you do) and there's currently about 7 points between seven clubs.It's marketable, if you're actually looking for things. A huge negative is the fact anyone who comes in from the outside is met with folk like you, who call it utterly shite regardless of the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazil85 Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 23 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: As if we'd be able to tap into some vast global market otherwise. It was more than three or four by the way. Do you give a shit about the Hungarian league? What would it require to change that? What are you on about? you're actually repeating my point. My point is that Scottish football is not marketable outside of Scotland. people saying the SPFL and SFA are poor negotiators and could get us a better deal. I'm saying (for the reason you've just confirmed) that we get exactly what we deserve, which isn't very much. So basically I'm making two separate points 1. We aren't marketable so no one would get us considerably more 2. The reason for that is a long history of limited competition, we're too far gone now and far behind to ever change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazil85 Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 1 minute ago, RandomGuy. said: Crowds are rising, near enough every top flight club is promoting their own youngsters and playing them, most games are utterly unpredictable (put a coupon on and see how you do) and there's currently about 7 points between seven clubs. It's marketable, if you're actually looking for things. A huge negative is the fact anyone who comes in from the outside is met with folk like you, who call it utterly shite regardless of the situation. We have clubs in the top flight that take less than 3,000 fans to some games. We have guaranteed champions. Who exactly would want to pay for a league where there's a fight for top six but not the champions? Boring, predictable and poor quality. The TV deals we get are pretty much spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tree house tam Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 Let's just give up on tv. Get every game back to Saturday 3pm. Job done, watch attendances rise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazil85 Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, tree house tam said: Let's just give upon tv. Get every game back to Saturday 3pm. Job done, watch attendances rise. Would take this everyday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 15 minutes ago, Bazil85 said: What are you on about? you're actually repeating my point. My point is that Scottish football is not marketable outside of Scotland. people saying the SPFL and SFA are poor negotiators and could get us a better deal. I'm saying (for the reason you've just confirmed) that we get exactly what we deserve, which isn't very much. So basically I'm making two separate points 1. We aren't marketable so no one would get us considerably more 2. The reason for that is a long history of limited competition, we're too far gone now and far behind to ever change that. Point 1 has some validity, but criticising the likes of Doncaster is always appropriate. Point 2 is utter horseshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazil85 Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 22 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: Point 1 has some validity, but criticising the likes of Doncaster is always appropriate. Point 2 is utter horseshit. Point one Doncaster is an absolute weapon, just not in this situation. Outwith anyones control. Point two, as a country football is one of the biggest aspects of our culture. Okay with our size as a nation we'll never be a La Liga but the Scottish league could be a lot better than it is if it was remotely exciting. Two champions in 35 years? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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