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Perhaps more interestingly in the context of Project Brave, we can which clubs are fielding players (of any nationality) who have come through their own youth system.  We see that the top 7 clubs on this list are all clubs who were included in the Elite Level.  Rangers are the only outliers here.
 
Average number of own youth team players in starting XI in the 2017/18 Scottish Premiership:Hamilton: 4.38Killie: 3.69Hearts: 3.08Celtic: 2.75Hibs: 2.61Aberdeen: 1.58Motherwell: 1.42Dundee: 1.15St Johnstone 0.85Ross County: 0.69Rangers: 0.58Partick Thistle: 0.54

 



good statting.

Can you do average number of alumni of each club starting in spl? i.e. showing scott brown in hibs stats and mark reynolds in wells'?
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1 hour ago, Bazil85 said:

Cheers for the info, it's really helpful. Now imagine if the rules of the game were that number HAD to be no lower than six? Would do wonders for our national team, give an even playing field as all clubs would be bound by the same rules. Would also say it wouldn't overlay impact the SPFL product, it's absolutely rotten right now, quality of our game can't get a great deal lower. Hence why Scottish clubs (bar Celtic) do nothing in European qualifyers. 

There's absolutely nothing to say that had we produced more players that it would benefit the national team. It seems to me that a big failing is coaching, as our players are behind in terms of technique, styles of play and, perhaps above all, mentality. We could have produced loads of younger players at Scottish clubs but the national team would most likely still be doing little better than it currently is.

Also I wouldn't agree that the quality of the 'SPFL' (what, all 4 divisions?) is absolutely rotten. What are you comparing it against?

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30 minutes ago, coprolite said:

 


good statting.

Can you do average number of alumni of each club starting in spl? i.e. showing scott brown in hibs stats and mark reynolds in wells'?

That's a bit harder since it's not always clear which clubs should take credit for certain players - for example, is Stuart Armstrong under Inverness or Dundee United?  I've tried my best to put something together (with Armstrong as DUFC).  Averages don't make much sense here, so I've just added up the total number of appearances for players produced by each Scottish club.   The main list shows players of all nationalities, while the one hidden in the spoiler is only for Scottish players.

Again, the top 6 have all been given Elite status.  Motherwell are joint 8th and Rangers are 11th.

 

Total number of 2017/18 Premiership starts by producing youth system:

Celtic: 135
Hearts: 69
Hibs: 64
Aberdeen: 63
Hamilton: 58
Kilmarnock: 51
St Mirren: 51
Livingston: 38
Motherwell: 38
Dundee United: 36
Rangers: 32
Queen's Park: 28
Ross County: 22
Inverness: 21
Montrose: 21
St Johnstone: 21
Partick Thistle: 19
Dundee: 15
Clyde: 13
Lanark United: 13
Dumbarton United: 12
Queen of the South: 12
Raith Rovers: 11
Dunfermline: 9
Kello Rovers: 8
Falkirk: 7
Kilbirnie Ladeside: 6
Syngenta Amateurs: 6
Cowdenbeath: 3
Stenhousemuir: 3
Berwick Rangers: 2
Spoiler

 


Total number of 2017/18 Premiership starts by producing youth system:

Celtic: 129
Hearts: 69
Hibs: 64
Hamilton: 58
Kilmarnock: 51
St Mirren: 51
Aberdeen: 50
Livingston: 38
Motherwell: 38
Dundee United: 36
Rangers: 32
Inverness: 21
Montrose: 21
St Johnstone: 21
Partick Thistle: 17
Queen's Park: 17
Dundee: 15
Clyde: 13
Lanark United: 13
Ross County: 13
Dumbarton United: 12
Queen of the South: 12
Raith Rovers: 11
Dunfermline: 9
Kello Rovers: 8
Falkirk: 7
Kilbirnie Ladeside: 6
Syngenta Amateurs: 6
Cowdenbeath: 3
Stenhousemuir: 3
Berwick Rangers: 2

 

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11 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

There's absolutely nothing to say that had we produced more players that it would benefit the national team. It seems to me that a big failing is coaching, as our players are behind in terms of technique, styles of play and, perhaps above all, mentality. We could have produced loads of younger players at Scottish clubs but the national team would most likely still be doing little better than it currently is.

Also I wouldn't agree that the quality of the 'SPFL' (what, all 4 divisions?) is absolutely rotten. What are you comparing it against?

Coaching is part of it, this is the thing. I'm not talking one aspect will fix absolutely all the problems. It goes hand in hand with everything else such as re-introducing the reserve league, better coaches, sports scientists and lifestyle coaches. There's a whole bunch of stuff that needs to happen. To say there is absolutely nothing to prove this would help, I would draw your attention to other nations the world over that have much more emphasis on youth development, such as the Germans.

Bottom line is what we're doing now absolutely does not help so we need to try something different. Forcing more clubs to concentrate on youth... great start I'd say. Alienating over 75% of your professional clubs in a project they don't want/ can't afford? Not such a great place to stard. 

St Johnstone - beat in Europe by a Lithuanian team (currently third in their league)

Aberdeen- beat in Europe by a Cypriot team (Currently fourth in their league)

Assuming I don't need to mention Sevco performance. 

it gets to the point where it's not just bad luck, it's a true reflection of how rank rotten our league is if these are some of our best teams. 

SPFL level is terrible for a country that is so massively engaged in football. I'm not saying we should be up there with La Liga, Serie A, etc but our place in world football is way below what it once was/ should be IMO. 

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Just now, Bazil85 said:

Coaching is part of it, this is the thing. I'm not talking one aspect will fix absolutely all the problems. It goes hand in hand with everything else such as re-introducing the reserve league, better coaches, sports scientists and lifestyle coaches. There's a whole bunch of stuff that needs to happen. To say there is absolutely nothing to prove this would help, I would draw your attention to other nations the world over that have much more emphasis on youth development, such as the Germans.

Bottom line is what we're doing now absolutely does not help so we need to try something different. Forcing more clubs to concentrate on youth... great start I'd say. Alienating over 75% of your professional clubs in a project they don't want/ can't afford? Not such a great place to stard. 

St Johnstone - beat in Europe by a Lithuanian team (currently third in their league)

Aberdeen- beat in Europe by a Cypriot team (Currently fourth in their league)

Assuming I don't need to mention Sevco performance. 

it gets to the point where it's not just bad luck, it's a true reflection of how rank rotten our league is if these are some of our best teams. 

SPFL level is terrible for a country that is so massively engaged in football. I'm not saying we should be up there with La Liga, Serie A, etc but our place in world football is way below what it once was/ should be IMO. 

SPFL level? A level that ranges from Cowdenbeath to Celtic? From Edinburgh City to Aberdeen? Quite a scale to be using.

Not sure if European games are an accurate barometer of how our game is doing, or even if it should be. Aye, there have been shite results in Europe for Scottish teams (and Sevco and Celtic), but there have also been great results for Scottish teams in Europe.

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2 hours ago, craigkillie said:

 

8 of the 12 clubs have given more than half of their starts to Scottish players this season, while Celtic are just a tiny bit under.  Rangers, Thistle and Motherwell have the lowest returns in that respect.  Obviously these numbers might be tweaked slightly if you moved towards homegrown players as defined by coming through a Scottish youth system - there are some Irish and English guys who might be included under that definition.
 


Average number of Scottish players in starting XI in the 2017/18 Scottish Premiership:

Dundee: 5.85

 

The .85 must be Nicky Low.

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1 hour ago, Auld Heid said:

A pointless exercise - look how unsuccessful the so called 'elite teams' have been in the Irn Bru cup against lower league opposition.   Players brought up in a protected environment,  out their depth when stuck in a competitive match.

 

 

 

I didn't know Crusaders were a lower league team...

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41 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

SPFL level? A level that ranges from Cowdenbeath to Celtic? From Edinburgh City to Aberdeen? Quite a scale to be using.

Not sure if European games are an accurate barometer of how our game is doing, or even if it should be. Aye, there have been shite results in Europe for Scottish teams (and Sevco and Celtic), but there have also been great results for Scottish teams in Europe.

I get your point, to clarify I'm talking about the SP. Our top flight is miles off where I feel we should be based on how engaged people in this country are about football. Yes we're a small nation but I don't think there is another nation in the world that could claim to have as many people per capital interested in football. Watching some of the football on offer (even from Celtic) is really disappointing.

I feel the natural reaction when making this point from some fans is to say things like  'EPL is so boring' For me people take that to think it's a poor league or not as good at football as it actually is (quality can cancel out quality). There's a difference between boring football and poor football. Yes it might entertain some to watch Celtic thump Hamilton 5 or 6 nil but that doesn't necessarily mean good football. Just poor quality of opposition for me. 

Scottish teams have historically had great results in Europe yeah but I think it's a pretty fair comparison. For me nothing will change until teams are developing a better quality of player in this country. A big part of that is surely more investment in the youth game, if we have to force clubs to do it through rules of the game, I think that's worth doing. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it'll ever happen. Sevco and Celtic would knock it back with their Old firm Veto (11 to 1 voting structure) another point of madness in our game that has to go. 

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That's a bit harder since it's not always clear which clubs should take credit for certain players - for example, is Stuart Armstrong under Inverness or Dundee United?  I've tried my best to put something together (with Armstrong as DUFC).  Averages don't make much sense here, so I've just added up the total number of appearances for players produced by each Scottish club.   The main list shows players of all nationalities, while the one hidden in the spoiler is only for Scottish players.
Again, the top 6 have all been given Elite status.  Motherwell are joint 8th and Rangers are 11th.
 
Total number of 2017/18 Premiership starts by producing youth system:Celtic: 135Hearts: 69Hibs: 64Aberdeen: 63Hamilton: 58Kilmarnock: 51St Mirren: 51Livingston: 38Motherwell: 38Dundee United: 36Rangers: 32Queen's Park: 28Ross County: 22Inverness: 21Montrose: 21St Johnstone: 21Partick Thistle: 19Dundee: 15Clyde: 13Lanark United: 13Dumbarton United: 12Queen of the South: 12Raith Rovers: 11Dunfermline: 9Kello Rovers: 8Falkirk: 7Kilbirnie Ladeside: 6Syngenta Amateurs: 6Cowdenbeath: 3Stenhousemuir: 3Berwick Rangers: 2

Spoiler  

Total number of 2017/18 Premiership starts by producing youth system:Celtic: 129Hearts: 69Hibs: 64Hamilton: 58Kilmarnock: 51St Mirren: 51Aberdeen: 50Livingston: 38Motherwell: 38Dundee United: 36Rangers: 32Inverness: 21Montrose: 21St Johnstone: 21Partick Thistle: 17Queen's Park: 17Dundee: 15Clyde: 13Lanark United: 13Ross County: 13Dumbarton United: 12Queen of the South: 12Raith Rovers: 11Dunfermline: 9Kello Rovers: 8Falkirk: 7Kilbirnie Ladeside: 6Syngenta Amateurs: 6Cowdenbeath: 3Stenhousemuir: 3Berwick Rangers: 2

 



excellent work
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I thought the whole idea was to reduce the number of clubs and therefore players in the pro youth system? Why the feck is there then 4 tiers, with the bottom one seemingly no better than some boys clubs? What's actually changed apart from the funding stream?

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On 11/17/2017 at 12:53, DA Baracus said:

There's absolutely nothing to say that had we produced more players that it would benefit the national team. It seems to me that a big failing is coaching, as our players are behind in terms of technique, styles of play and, perhaps above all, mentality. We could have produced loads of younger players at Scottish clubs but the national team would most likely still be doing little better than it currently is.

This.

Forcing clubs to play Scottish players won't improve the players. If someone is shite at football then he will be shite at football in the SPFL rather than the Juniors, HFL or LL

Handicapping is not the answer to standards of player. If players are good enough they would get a game.

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On 11/16/2017 at 15:44, craigkillie said:

I'm not convinced this was actually ever a rule in Germany.  I can't find any reference to it online.  It's entirely possible that the journalist made it up or misinterpreted something else.

There wasn't a rule about minimum of 6 players.

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  • 5 weeks later...

Is it poor coaching though?

Did Dalglish, Jinky, Baxter, Law et al have the kind of coaching kids have now-a-days.  Bringing it further forward, Gough, Maurice Johnstone, Malpas, Miller, McLeish, players that would have walked into most international sides, did they have the coaching we have now?

Did Beckham become one of the best long distance passers and free kick takers purely because of coaching? 

Personally, I don't think so, although some form of direction will certainly help it's not the main factor.  Simply hours with a ball at the feet is what creates better players, coupled with desire/drive.

10 000 hours of football.  (http://www.soccer-training-info.com/the_10000_hour_rule.asp) Sounds a lot, 20 hours a week for 10 years, and it probably is but when I was a bairn 1-2 hours playing football every night after school, an hour at school every day, proper training and games and god knows how many hours at the weekend had the time racking up.  Personally, really lost serious interest by 13 and that was that (clearly missing the desire/drive thing).

The current academy set up, which really only ought to be producing players now, is sort of running on that philosophy though the weekend hours is almost certainly missing.

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On 12/20/2017 at 02:09, Loonytoons said:

Is it poor coaching though?

Did Dalglish, Jinky, Baxter, Law et al have the kind of coaching kids have now-a-days.  Bringing it further forward, Gough, Maurice Johnstone, Malpas, Miller, McLeish, players that would have walked into most international sides, did they have the coaching we have now?

Did Beckham become one of the best long distance passers and free kick takers purely because of coaching? 

Personally, I don't think so, although some form of direction will certainly help it's not the main factor.  Simply hours with a ball at the feet is what creates better players, coupled with desire/drive.

10 000 hours of football.  (http://www.soccer-training-info.com/the_10000_hour_rule.asp) Sounds a lot, 20 hours a week for 10 years, and it probably is but when I was a bairn 1-2 hours playing football every night after school, an hour at school every day, proper training and games and god knows how many hours at the weekend had the time racking up.  Personally, really lost serious interest by 13 and that was that (clearly missing the desire/drive thing).

The current academy set up, which really only ought to be producing players now, is sort of running on that philosophy though the weekend hours is almost certainly missing.

If Dalgish, Jinky, Baxter, Law etc were playing in this generation would they be the stand out players or were they just stand out players because of the generation they played in? Same can be said for any player of years gone by in any country.

Football has evolved, it's all about coaching, diet, fitness, technique, skill and a dozen other things, back then it was raw skill, fitness wasn't a big part of it. Can you imagine George Best even at his prime when he was still regularly sinking enough booze to take out a rugby team playing for the current Man Utd team? He wouldn't be close, yes he had the skill and ability but he didn't have the coaching, development and life nurturing that he'd require to be a modern day quality footballer. We still have young players that have the skill and the ability that all the named players have, that isn't the problem in Scotland. It's the right coaching (both football and life) to get them to the level that football currently is at. 

Don't believe me? Look at the evidence. You've rhymed of 11 high quality players over maybe two generations, since football has become more about fitness and coaching we've had zero (maybe D Fletcher in his prime is only one close) Is that a coincidence or is it the way football has evolved towards fitness and coaching? 

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If Dalgish, Jinky, Baxter, Law etc were playing in this generation would they be the stand out players or were they just stand out players because of the generation they played in? Same can be said for any player of years gone by in any country.
Football has evolved, it's all about coaching, diet, fitness, technique, skill and a dozen other things, back then it was raw skill, fitness wasn't a big part of it. Can you imagine George Best even at his prime when he was still regularly sinking enough booze to take out a rugby team playing for the current Man Utd team? He wouldn't be close, yes he had the skill and ability but he didn't have the coaching, development and life nurturing that he'd require to be a modern day quality footballer. We still have young players that have the skill and the ability that all the named players have, that isn't the problem in Scotland. It's the right coaching (both football and life) to get them to the level that football currently is at. 
Don't believe me? Look at the evidence. You've rhymed of 11 high quality players over maybe two generations, since football has become more about fitness and coaching we've had zero (maybe D Fletcher in his prime is only one close) Is that a coincidence or is it the way football has evolved towards fitness and coaching? 
Of course fitness and diet are important but they don't make poor footballers great.
I'm pretty sure our failure to produce outstanding players is not because our fitness coaches and dieticians aren't good at their jobs.
You state that football has evolved towards fitness and coaching but we've been doing that for years now without any obvious improvement.
Simply blaming poor coaching doesn't make sense either, surely a few of the recent or current coaches are actually very good at their trade so we should be seeing the odd top player popping up.
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