Project Brave rumbles on..

[1320Lichtie]

Going through our team/squad and we've got maybe 3 or 4 guys that came through the youth systems at the elite clubs. Rest are from all over the SPFL.

[happyaccie]

8 minutes ago, Tartantony said:

In-case you have forgotten, we are currently 57 games unbeaten domestically, just won the 4th treble in our history and recently had one of our best CL results. Tierney, McGregor and Forrest have played a massive part in that. Liam Henderson (a Scottish Cup winner), Ralston, Miller, Johnston and Aitcheson have all contributed along the way.  Considering Lennoxtown only opened its doors 10 years ago, I honestly can say that I am delighted with our youth programme. I have no worries at all about the sort of players we will be producing over the next decade or two.

Fair enough, you all hate the OF and I understand that  but at least try to be objective. Maybe have a read at Dunning's excellent post above which is very insightful and doesn't just go down the standard P&B route of who hates the OF more.

Once again the narrow minded OF fan rears their perceived persecution heads, I do not hate the OF , all I ask for from the SFA is equal representation to all of its member clubs and no preferential treatment bestowed to the so called Elitist clubs, I know you don't care about anything in Scottish football apart from what's best for Celtic , My concerns with the way Scottish football is being administered in its current state by the governing bodies has me in a state of dread about the future of the game remaining professional in the long term. Under the SPFL and the SFA the standard of the game has nosedived possibly irretreviably over the last 15-20 years, I as a albeit my personal allegiance being with my hometown club have a passion for the sport within my homeland and will do everything possible to retain its status as a professional sport in Scotland . Under the current legislative auspices of the SFA the game in Scotland will DIE , with many of its 42 senior clubs either going defunct or at best resulting in many of these clubs turning semi-pro or in extreme cases going into amateur football.

[happyaccie]

33 minutes ago, Tartantony said:

In-case you have forgotten, we are currently 57 games unbeaten domestically, just won the 4th treble in our history and recently had one of our best CL results. Tierney, McGregor and Forrest have played a massive part in that. Liam Henderson (a Scottish Cup winner), Ralston, Miller, Johnston and Aitcheson have all contributed along the way.  Considering Lennoxtown only opened its doors 10 years ago.

You won a treble last season and are currently on a run of 57 games unbroken , can you now ask yourself why you are so superior to the opposition you face in Scotland , you're club mops up all the talent which is developed by other clubs in Scotland and in many of these instances allows their careers to stagnate by reducing those individuals game time , Celtic & the old Sevco for decades signed players from other Scottish clubs not in particular to strengthen their squad but to reduce the competitive threat these clubs had whilst holding the registration of those players. Now if you seriously think that strengthens the game in Scotland then ok , but I would testify otherwise.

[RedEd]

1 hour ago, NYD1997 said:

Also last season the 2 leagues which are ran by the SFA/SPFL the U17's and the U20's were won by Saints and Ross County respectively, and if I am correct, the Ross County team was filled with 18/19 year olds brought up through their own system.  Both teams would be out of the project brave loop. So if when the u17's win the league any of the "big 5" could come in and take any player with a lower transfer/development fee because they are better than what they have. How is that in any way fair? 

St Johnstone may have won an u17s league but it wasn't the elite level league as they aren't currently part of it.  From what I hear the SFA seem to be making up  criteria as they go along and shifting goalposts as they see fit. They are only interested in the chosen few and don't seem to realise how damaging this will be to the vast majority of clubs.  It could also mean that boys from large parts of Scotland are disadvantaged because they don't live in or near Glasgow, Edinburgh or Aberdeen. There are currently two elite academies in Ayrshire, which means that boys can go to school, train and play locally. And let's face it neither Murray Park or Lennoxtown are convenient locations for boys coming up from Ayrshire to train 3 nights a week or whatever it is (and yes, I know some do but that's not the point).

The second tier grade academies, which are likely to be a number of the current elite academies,  will still be able to play against the chosen few but how long before their funding is reduced and shifted to the big boys and they are effectively relegated?

[LordHawHaw]

25 minutes ago, happyaccie said:

 Under the current legislative auspices of the SFA the game in Scotland will DIE , with many of its 42 senior clubs either going defunct or at best resulting in many of these clubs turning semi-pro or in extreme cases going into amateur football.

I don't think that would cause any great consternation at the SFA, or sadly at some of the "top " clubs.  SFA are not fit for purpose.

[Ross.]

We need more people playing more football with better coaching and better facilities from as young an age as possible. Seems to me that this will reduce the numbers getting top end access substantially. That really can't be a good thing.

[SilverWolfe]

24 minutes ago, happyaccie said:

Once again the narrow minded OF fan rears their perceived persecution heads, I do not hate the OF , all I ask for from the SFA is equal representation to all of its member clubs and no preferential treatment bestowed to the so called Elitist clubs, I know you don't care about anything in Scottish football apart from what's best for Celtic , My concerns with the way Scottish football is being administered in its current state by the governing bodies has me in a state of dread about the future of the game remaining professional in the long term. Under the SPFL and the SFA the standard of the game has nosedived possibly irretreviably over the last 15-20 years, I as a albeit my personal allegiance being with my hometown club have a passion for the sport within my homeland and will do everything possible to retain its status as a professional sport in Scotland . Under the current legislative auspices of the SFA the game in Scotland will DIE , with many of its 42 senior clubs either going defunct or at best resulting in many of these clubs turning semi-pro or in extreme cases going into amateur football.

You don't know me so don't presume that I don't care about Scottish football. I don't know how many times I need to say on here that I care more about Scottish football than I do Celtic. I attend other league games in Scotland when Celtic are not playing because I love Scottish football, I'm constantly in arguments with OF fans who think Scottish football is a mickey mouse league. I personally will always take the option that is best for Scottish football over what is best for Celtic. You assuming that us OF fans are all exactly the same is down to the fact that you hate the two clubs so much. There are a lot of folk on here that are the same.  While I love Scottish football, I will still defend Celtic where required, especially on here where so many are incapable of objectivity. To say that in 10 years we haven't produced any players is just incorrect and I am going to make sure I prove that sort of point wrong.

4 minutes ago, happyaccie said:

You won a treble last season and are currently on a run of 57 games unbroken , can you now ask yourself why you are so superior to the opposition you face in Scotland , you're club mops up all the talent which is developed by other clubs in Scotland and in many of these instances allows their careers to stagnate by reducing those individuals game time , Celtic & the old Sevco for decades signed players from other Scottish clubs not in particular to strengthen their squad but to reduce the competitive threat these clubs had whilst holding the registration of those players. Now if you seriously think that strengthens the game in Scotland then ok , but I would testify otherwise.

This myth again. Celtic did not sign players to weaken other teams. We bought players who had shown something and we felt could improve our team. If a player isn't capable of making that step up, either in quality or mentality, then that's the players fault not Celtics. Look at Jonny Hayes at the moment, outstanding at Aberdeen and has come to us and been given 5 or 6 chances and been shockingly poor, completely out of his depth. On here, we will be blamed for ruining him and letting him rot on the bench to weaken Aberdeen but in reality he just doesn't have the mentality for the step up.

[capt_oats]

6 minutes ago, Ross. said:

We need more people playing more football with better coaching and better facilities from as young an age as possible. Seems to me that this will reduce the numbers getting top end access substantially. That really can't be a good thing.

To devil's advocate here: I imagine the argument to counter that is that in theory it'll be the best players who will be getting the top end access.  So reducing the numbers getting access to the best coaching and facilities is kind of the point.

However as Dunning1874 points out when he highlights Andy Robertson in his excellent post the flaws in that argument are pretty easy to pick apart.

[Ross.]

1 minute ago, capt_oats said:

To devil's advocate here: I imagine the argument to counter that is that in theory it'll be the best players who will be getting the top end access.  So reducing the numbers getting access to the best coaching and facilities is kind of the point.

However as Dunning1874 points out when he highlights Andy Robertson in his excellent post the flaws in that argument are pretty easy to pick apart.

Reducing the numbers does appear to be the point, but it's entirely the wrong approach to take. The fact it is even being suggested is an appalling failure by those running the game. Trickle down economics, which is essentially all this is, is a guarantee of failure.

[happyaccie]

9 minutes ago, Tartantony said:

You don't know me so don't presume that I don't care about Scottish football. I don't know how many times I need to say on here that I care more about Scottish football than I do Celtic. I attend other league games in Scotland when Celtic are not playing because I love Scottish football, I'm constantly in arguments with OF fans who think Scottish football is a mickey mouse league. I personally will always take the option that is best for Scottish football over what is best for Celtic. You assuming that us OF fans are all exactly the same is down to the fact that you hate the two clubs so much. There are a lot of folk on here that are the same.  While I love Scottish football, I will still defend Celtic where required, especially on here where so many are incapable of objectivity. To say that in 10 years we haven't produced any players is just incorrect and I am going to make sure I prove that sort of point wrong.

This myth again. Celtic did not sign players to weaken other teams. We bought players who had shown something and we felt could improve our team. If a player isn't capable of making that step up, either in quality or mentality, then that's the players fault not Celtics. Look at Jonny Hayes at the moment, outstanding at Aberdeen and has come to us and been given 5 or 6 chances and been shockingly poor, completely out of his depth. On here, we will be blamed for ruining him and letting him rot on the bench to weaken Aberdeen but in reality he just doesn't have the mentality for the step up.

The example you have used here is classic, by signing Jonny Hayes you and I shall quote you now "outstanding at Aberdeen " but shockingly poor when given a chance at Parkhead just qualifies the point I'm making, by weakening you're strongest competition you have inadvertently strengthened your own position even though not utilising the signed player, this player's career will to all intents and purposes stagnate for the remainder of his contract or Celtic and the player terminate his contract by mutual agreement.Whether the player has failed to make the mark on ability is debateable , because you have just by implying this questioned you're manager and coaching staffs abilities , if J Hayes has regressed from " outstanding at Aberdeen" to being almost oblivious at Parkhead I would be questioning the coaching capabilities of the coaching team.The old adage that Hugh Keevin's loved to use that you have to be a mentally strong player to represent either half of the OF is codswollop also , you sign a player on his physical and technical abilities not on his mentality.Both factions of the OF have been guilty of stagnating individuals careers in a backhanded way by weakening competition of oppositions has undoubtedly occurred during my lifetime , if you disagree then you are in a state of denial.

[glasgow-sheep]

Surely we should be looking at Iceland.  Do they not have a ridiculous number of UEFA qualified coaches and indoor pitches.  They didn't restrict access, they ensured all kids, at what ever ability level, had access to the best.

Obviously in a country like Scotland, 15x bigger, the cost to implications are significant but surely the general principle is one we could follow?

[happyaccie]

6 minutes ago, glasgow-sheep said:

Surely we should be looking at Iceland.  Do they not have a ridiculous number of UEFA qualified coaches and indoor pitches.  They didn't restrict access, they ensured all kids, at what ever ability level, had access to the best.

Obviously in a country like Scotland, 15x bigger, the cost to implications are significant but surely the general principle is one we could follow?

Of course this is something to act upon , unfortunately the unfit to govern body in situ at Hampden could never support such a sensible option as it would not be to the exclusitivity of their elitist clubs.

[SilverWolfe]

The example you have used here is classic, by signing Jonny Hayes you and I shall quote you now "outstanding at Aberdeen " but shockingly poor when given a chance at Parkhead just qualifies the point I'm making, by weakening you're strongest competition you have inadvertently strengthened your own position even though not utilising the signed player, this player's career will to all intents and purposes stagnate for the remainder of his contract or Celtic and the player terminate his contract by mutual agreement.Whether the player has failed to make the mark on ability is debateable , because you have just by implying this questioned you're manager and coaching staffs abilities , if J Hayes has regressed from " outstanding at Aberdeen" to being almost oblivious at Parkhead I would be questioning the coaching capabilities of the coaching team.The old adage that Hugh Keevin's loved to use that you have to be a mentally strong player to represent either half of the OF is codswollop also , you sign a player on his physical and technical abilities not on his mentality.Both factions of the OF have been guilty of stagnating individuals careers in a backhanded way by weakening competition of oppositions has undoubtedly occurred during my lifetime , if you disagree then you are in a state of denial.

Wow, just wow!

[happyaccie]

14 minutes ago, Tartantony said:

 

Wow, just wow!

 

The future of Scottish football will only be safeguarded when the ugly sisters get their wish and gain entry to  the English football leagues, oh I forgot they don't want you acht well  I suppose us mere mortals will have to endure the bigoted factions of both of you're clubs for many years to come.

[Dunning1874]

40 minutes ago, glasgow-sheep said:

Surely we should be looking at Iceland.  Do they not have a ridiculous number of UEFA qualified coaches and indoor pitches.  They didn't restrict access, they ensured all kids, at what ever ability level, had access to the best.

Obviously in a country like Scotland, 15x bigger, the cost to implications are significant but surely the general principle is one we could follow?

You're spot on. Obviously no one country is exactly like another in terms of existing facilities and footballing structures so a youth strategy and system can't necessarily be copied and implemented in exactly the same fashion - the obvious flaw in the arguments of Jim Traynor and Gordon Smith types when they ask why we can't just copy Spain and Germany -  but the general principle of Iceland is absolutely the one to follow for a country like Scotland.

They invested massively in coaching and ensured absolutely every child in the country who wants to play football can get access to a UEFA qualified coach. In Scotland, the SFA are trying to implement a system which will ensure that only a few hundred youngsters have access to the best coaching. Once it's in place we're going to have fewer players being trained by UEFA licensed coaches than Iceland have UEFA licensed coaches.

We have an imbalance between the number of qualified youth coaches and the number of youth players so have decided to fix that balance in order to produce better players. Absolutely anyone who has the slightest clue about anything will see that the only solution to that problem is to recruit more coaches, as Iceland did, but the SFA are genuinely hellbent on reducing the number of players instead. It is absolutely staggering. People say that things are unbelievable as a figure of speech, but every time I think about this I genuinely struggle to believe that the SFA are pushing such an obviously preposterous plan, while no one in a position of prominence in the media is turning round and pointing out that the whole thing is clearly absolutely fucking ridiculous. It's appalling.

On Iceland, this article has a good description of the changes they made: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/08/iceland-stunning-rise-euro-2016-gylfi-sigurdsson-lars-lagerback

[williemillersmoustache]

Iceland also cap Dandies, much to learn from them indeed.

[7-2]

If we got rid of the useless puppets Regan and Doncaster we could employ about a dozen new coaches straight away.

[Dons_1988]

This myth again. Celtic did not sign players to weaken other teams. We bought players who had shown something and we felt could improve our team. If a player isn't capable of making that step up, either in quality or mentality, then that's the players fault not Celtics. Look at Jonny Hayes at the moment, outstanding at Aberdeen and has come to us and been given 5 or 6 chances and been shockingly poor, completely out of his depth. On here, we will be blamed for ruining him and letting him rot on the bench to weaken Aberdeen but in reality he just doesn't have the mentality for the step up.

Pretty bold statement to judge someone's mentality based on 5 or 6 performances on a football pitch.

[Cerberus]

19 hours ago, Tartantony said:

 

Off the top of my head I can think of the following who came through our academy and played for our first team.

*international cap

Marshall*
Mulgrew*
Odea*
Kennedy*
McManus*
Caddis*
Ralston
Fisher
Tierney*
Maloney*
Mcgeady*
Henderson
Miller*
McGeouch
Irvine*
McGregor
Forrest*
Wallace*
Burchill*
Watt*
Smith*
Beattie*

Others that didn't play for us but being current internationalists include McGovern, Robertson and Bannan and thats not including the countless players in Scotland who have had a decent career.

I think you are being exceptionally harsh on Celtic. Our youth programme does pretty well, it may not always produce amazing first team players but we provide a good amount of players that make it as a pro elsewhere.

Last season during our invincible domestic season we fielded 10 academy players. 6 this season so far with 4 appearing in the CL.
 

 

Walter Mitty stuff.

[DA Baracus]

It's often pointed out that more successful countries, with Germany, Spain and Iceland often quoted as great examples, have a high number of top qualifies coaches per head of population.

It seems that Scotland are genuinely trying to go in the opposite direction with a system that will ensure less coaches. Mintel (a cross between mental and minter).