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Whitburn Vale

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8 hours ago, git-intae-thum said:

Completely agree

 

For the tldr brigade........Spanish constitution is pish (on this issue)

That appears to be a major stumbling block in regards to Catalonian independence.

They probably thought the constitution was a good idea at the time, although I read somewhere that it didn't pass in Catalonia when it was voted on. Is that right?

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7 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Catalonia is not an accepted territorial space, Catalonian political parties campaign in regions of Spain outside the Autonomous Region of Catalonia that they claim as their own, including the Balearic Islands.They also claim parts of France. The mix of populations in Barcelona is not unlike that of Brussels.

This is what I'm interested in knowing. It seems from the articles I've read that Spanish is on par with the Catalonian language. Is that a stand in for ethnic identity? Or does it not matter? It also seems that people from other parts of Spain have been pouring into Catalonia for a long time. Do the people descended from these folks consider themselves Catalonian? Spanish? Both? Do they specifically reject Catalonian identity?

Are the 50-50 polls on independence an expression of ethnic difference among the inhabitants? Or are they the expression of people who for the most part consider themselves as belonging to the same ethnic group disagreeing on future political arrangements? 

I'm  completely unclear on these issues. When I read about constitutional issues in the UK or Belgium they seem fairly straightforward. The waters seem really muddy on this one.

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30 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

That appears to be a major stumbling block in regards to Catalonian independence.

They probably thought the constitution was a good idea at the time, although I read somewhere that it didn't pass in Catalonia when it was voted on. Is that right?

It passed with 95% on a turnout of 68% in Catalonia.

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I said I had read that the Spanish Constitution wasn't passed in Catalonia (although it was passed in Spain on a total vote).  You replied that it was passed on a 95% Yes vote overall but the turnout in Catalonia was 68%.

From that I took it that it wasn't passed in Catalonia if you took their vote in isolation.

Similarly, Brexit was passed on a total UK vote, but it wasn't passed in NI, if you take our vote in isolation.

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1 minute ago, Jacksgranda said:

I said I had read that the Spanish Constitution wasn't passed in Catalonia (although it was passed in Spain on a total vote).  You replied that it was passed on a 95% Yes vote overall but the turnout in Catalonia was 68%.

From that I took it that it wasn't passed in Catalonia if you took their vote in isolation.

Similarly, Brexit was passed on a total UK vote, but it wasn't passed in NI, if you take our vote in isolation.

It passed by 95% in Catalonia with a turnout in Catalonia of 68%. The total for Spain as a whole was 92% with a turnout of 67%

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2 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

It passed by 95% in Catalonia with a turnout in Catalonia of 68%. The total for Spain as a whole was 92% with a turnout of 67%

So that was a load of shite I read about it being rejected by Catalonia.

Fake news, eh?

Edited by Jacksgranda
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Just now, welshbairn said:

Yes, unless you were reading about some other vote.

Hmmm, can't remember where I read it now, but I'm sure it was about the Constitution.

Seeing as how I've nothing better to do at the minute, I'll go and have a look for it.

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8 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Catalonia is not an accepted territorial space, Catalonian political parties campaign in regions of Spain outside the Autonomous Region of Catalonia that they claim as their own, including the Balearic Islands.They also claim parts of France. The mix of populations in Barcelona is not unlike that of Brussels.

The referendum was held in the accepted territorial space that is covered by the post-Franco autonomous community and there is no serious attempt underway at the moment by the Catalan parties to create a state that covers the entire Catalan language area or to participate in elections outside of the defined borders of Catalonia. The consensus in Valencia is that the local language is Valencian rather than Catalan and the Partido Popular dominates politically in both Valencia and the Balearic Islands.

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44 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The referendum was held in the accepted territorial space that is covered by the post-Franco autonomous community and there is no serious attempt underway at the moment by the Catalan parties to create a state that covers the entire Catalan language area or to participate in elections outside of the defined borders of Catalonia. The consensus in Valencia is that the local language is Valencian rather than Catalan and the Partido Popular dominates politically in both Valencia and the Balearic Islands.

The CUP who are part of the Government are in favour of uniting all Catalan speaking areas and run for office outside the autonomous community, including in Valencia where they are represented on two councils.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Unity_Candidacy

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10 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Catalonia is not an accepted territorial space, Catalonian political parties campaign in regions of Spain outside the Autonomous Region of Catalonia that they claim as their own, including the Balearic Islands.They also claim parts of France. The mix of populations in Barcelona is not unlike that of Brussels.

They campaign there but they do not claim that those territories are part of the unit that should secede following a Yes vote in a referendum. This is a bit like saying France and Germany shouldn’t be independent because Alsace and Lorraine exists.

Brussels is an issue because there is no satisfactory way to divide it and because it is in many respects itself governed separately from either the Flemish or Walloon territories. The Balearic Islands and areas of Spain are defined as outside the territory’s of Catalonia, defined by constitutional provincial boundaries. All autonomous communities including that of Catalonia are definitionally territorially clear and stable. In Catalonia’s case it even uses boundaries upon which the Spanish Republic relied even long before the rise of Franco.

Edited by Ad Lib
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2 hours ago, welshbairn said:

It passed with 95% on a turnout of 68% in Catalonia.

This, of course, isn’t the whole story. The alternative to ratifying that Constitution, which was a document of political compromise, was a likely resumption of Civil War. The constitution was specifically supposed to “recognise and guarantee the right of self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed.”

That phrase is used in the often referred to Article 2, in which pro-Spain types typically insist on quoting about “indissoluble unity” without reading the next fucking stanza.

The Spanish Constitution is a document riddled with inherent contradictions and the constitutional history has to be understood if we are fully to appreciate both the letter and spirit of what Catalans consented to in 1978. There were also special transitional arrangements for Catalonia, Basque and Navarre (which were also, technically unconstitutionally, extended to Andalusia) which cut across the general principles of the Constitution and without which, politically, Catalonia might well not have ratified it.

As a model for functioning multi-tiered Government it is also an aberration, requiring combinations of Spanish-wide legislative supermajorities, general elections, more supermajorities and referendums to ratify even cosmetic changes to parts of it that might only affect some parts. The fundamentals of constitutional consent are defective in Spain and Catalonia, and there is no easy way to fix that.

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On 04/10/2017 at 15:56, Ross. said:

Can anyone recommend a decent book on Spanish political history? Reading a lot of stuff in a lot of places that I would like to put context to.

Most of the well known ones concentrate on the Civil War. I'm going to give this one a go which concentrates on modern Catalonia, written by a Swiss born journalist for the New York Times, previously with the FT, so hopefully with some outsider objectivity.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Struggle-Catalonia-Rebel-Politics-Spain/dp/1849048037/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1508058341&sr=1-1&keywords=the+struggle+for+catalonia

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