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Catalonia


Whitburn Vale

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The British government badly bungled the handling of the aftermath and that led to the Sinn Fein landslide (outside NI) in 1918. If it had been handled differently and the IPP had won instead with the delayed Home Rule of 1912 implemented post-WWI, Pearse and Connelly would be a footnote and Scotland would probably have been independent by now for many decades given Home Rule All Round was the answer to the 1912 version of the West Lothian Question.

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Puigdemont asking for all sides to come to the table.  2 people each and discuss a way forward without any preconditions.

But Rajoy still talking about activating 155.  No dialogue with the traitors.  

 

It's exhausting to watch.  So much happening all at once.

 

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Think Puidgemont is playing this very intelligently in EU opinion terms by getting the Spanish state to reveal its true character. It's not reasonable for people to talk about the Scottish scenario when you have a state that has zero interest in ever conceding independence of one of its component parts and if democracy is the name of the game then the legitimate political aspiration of forming a new state has to be accomodated in terms of international law. There are so many other possible similar constitutional crises waiting to happen in a European context that it would clearly be sensible for the legalistic pathway for doing this sort of thing to be laid out and generally agreed upon.

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Suicidal Freedom fighters are probably not the best role models The underlying point remains

 

 

 

They were executed without trial and said executions dramatically changed Irish opinion towards self determination. I am not saying this is the way for catalan independence. My point was that Ireland also signed a declaration of independence in 1916 which was disputed by others on forum. That said proclamation is at the heart of Irish independence and was actually viewed, acknowledged and respected by Queen Liz when she visited 5 yrs ago.

 

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Could Spain not try to do some sort of dirty "oh, we'll offer you a deal but the terms are shite and heavily unfavourable to Catalonia" type of thing e.g. agree to hold a referendum but have an impossibly high threshold for turnout to win independence?

You'd never see that type of thing in Britain, of course, but it's surely got to be an option for them.

Edited by Thistle_do_nicely
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37 minutes ago, Thistle_do_nicely said:

Could Spain not try to do some sort of dirty "oh, we'll offer you a deal but the terms are shite and heavily unfavourable to Catalonia" type of thing e.g. agree to hold a referendum but have an impossibly high threshold for turnout to win independence?

You'd never see that type of thing in Britain, of course, but it's surely got to be an option for them.

I think they'll cobble together a three way referendum, Status Quo, Independence or Devomax, with 51% needed for any change. The only option with a chance of winning would be Devomax but they could turn that into a long term discussion over federalism throughout Spain. More likely would be no overall majority so back to Status Quo.

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7 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I think they'll cobble together a three way referendum, Status Quo, Independence or Devomax, with 51% needed for any change. The only option with a chance of winning would be Devomax but they could turn that into a long term discussion over federalism throughout Spain. More likely would be no overall majority so back to Status Quo.

The Castillians believe the most recent referendum was illegal because it gave the option of independence. How then could they offer a referendum with such an option?

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1 minute ago, Tibbermoresaint said:

The Castillians believe the most recent referendum was illegal because it gave the option of independence. How then could they offer a referendum with such an option?

Because they know it wouldn't win. If Spain as whole approves it, then it's legal.

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Puigdemont has thrown this back in the lap of Spain. It has to be addressed somewhere along the line by Spain and simply can't be ignored no matter how hard they try.
Spain will now have to intervene either by dialog or by force as Catalonia has now democratically gave notice of it's intention to become an independent State. 

I don't think he had any option but to take this route - Rajoy either has to back down or look (if that were possible) an even bigger w****r than he is now.
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2 minutes ago, kilbowie2002 said:


If the term 'shat it' could be found in some kind of political wiki type affair then the definition of 'shat it' would be given as 'see Scotland 2014'. Biggest nation of shitebags in existence, sfa national team shite it every campaign just like our electorate.

Interesting take.

I was bitterly disappointed with the result and feel we've gone back a bit since then, but looking at the demographics of the vote at the time I'll take some encouragement.  Went from a 40%ish deficit (70-30) to losing by about 5% in the space of less than 12 months.

A setback, no more than that, and not a reason to despair or to cast nationwide aspersions.

At least we had the option; that democratic option is the main thing missing in Catalonia.

 

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2 minutes ago, kilbowie2002 said:


We are the walking advertisement for Catalonia of what not to do, the Spanish government doing the indy ref job the msm played with misinformation (due to the fact there actually is a pro indy media in Catalonia), 'constitutional change' is the vow type offering that so many of the shitebags up here accepted despite the empty promises that any right minded (and ultimately proven to be entirely correct) person could see through (for reference see claims re EU membership, increased powers and 'Scotland leading the UK'). If Catalonia has any and i mean any example of what not to do its us. They need to have the courage to go ahead with it.

I think they're in a weaker position than we were, probably because the perception is they're in a stronger position.

I'll try to explain that.  We were 'given' a referendum by the UK government; as has been said by others many times, had they thought it would be so close they probably wouldn't have 'given' it.  Our referendum had legitimacy and had we voted YES as a nation it would have been impossible to backtrack on it.

Catalonia are in a far less advantageous position, I think they have a far tougher job on their hands.  They could "go ahead with it" but it's not going to be an easy task.  Putting the Spanish government on the back foot may drag the process out but may make Catalonia stronger and the Castilians weaker in the long run. 

 

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