Catalonia

[Savage Henry]

TBH no one gave a monkeys about Catalonia until the other week.
It's on the international agenda now, the challenge is to keep it there without completely alienating potential allies.
UDI doesn't put any pressure on Spain whatsoever, everyone can just dismiss it as illegitimate.
TBH I'm not 100% convinced with what I'm saying as ,like I said, Spain have behaved abysmally as have the EU, it's just my best guess at what might achieve the end game in long term.

Agreed. Which is why Madrid’s heavy handed policing was so counterproductive. If they had ignored it, today’s semi-bottle job would have looked laughable.

[Loondave1]

 
Im not back patting anyone. You know im talking about you because you are a self confessed troll and you enter the thread with a pitiful effort to get bites. If you're just going to be a fanny on the politics threads then maybe you should stay away.
 

Will that mean no T shirt ?

[Whitburn Vale]

Puidgemont is playing a blinder,he knows if he announced it tonite he would have been locked up,the catalan parliament suspended and police/troops on the streets. So he's played the diplomacy card,looking like the one who is looking for compromise,Madrid of course will now still come down hard,not as bad as they would hav done but still hard.

Puidgemont will then say look i tried but theres no talking to them,then declare it.

He's looking for outside sympathy and obviously has one eye on how Slovenia gained independence from the former Yugoslavia.

[John Lambies Doos]

he obviously has one eye on how Slovenia gained independence from the former Yugoslavia.

Genetics imo

[Antiochas III]

16 minutes ago, Whitburn Vale said:

Puidgemont is playing a blinder,he knows if he announced it tonite he would have been locked up,the catalan parliament suspended and police/troops on the streets. So he's played the diplomacy card,looking like the one who is looking for compromise,Madrid of course will now still come down hard,not as bad as they would hav done but still hard.

Puidgemont will then say look i tried but theres no talking to them,then declare it.

He's looking for outside sympathy and obviously has one eye on how Slovenia gained independence from the former Yugoslavia.

Pretty much sums it up.  He is hoping that Spain shoot themselves in the head after already shooting themselves in the foot. 

He has offered Spain a chance to talk, but he's hopeful Spain will continue down the road they are on.  

[doulikefish]

50 minutes ago, Whitburn Vale said:

Puidgemont is playing a blinder,he knows if he announced it tonite he would have been locked up,the catalan parliament suspended and police/troops on the streets. So he's played the diplomacy card,looking like the one who is looking for compromise,Madrid of course will now still come down hard,not as bad as they would hav done but still hard.

Puidgemont will then say look i tried but theres no talking to them,then declare it.

He's looking for outside sympathy and obviously has one eye on how Slovenia gained independence from the former Yugoslavia.

They are all signing a declaration of independence just now

[Jacksgranda]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41576870

Now what?

[Savage Henry]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41576870
Now what?

See post #871.

Leadership of the independence movement are reneging on a non-binding referendum after overplaying their hand. They can declare unilateral independence, but nobody will recognise it. Is declaring independence on a illegal referendum a criminal act? I have no idea, but this Puigdemont guy is setting himself up as a martyr to the cause. Anyone with a passing interest in Catalan politics will know it can be very ego driven.

[Jacksgranda]

50 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41576870

Now what?

 

13 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

 

See post #871.

Leadership of the independence movement are reneging on a non-binding referendum after overplaying their hand. They can declare unilateral independence, but nobody will recognise it. Is declaring independence on a illegal referendum a criminal act? I have no idea, but this Puigdemont guy is setting himself up as a martyr to the cause. Anyone with a passing interest in Catalan politics will know it can be very ego driven.

 

This it? 

12 hours ago, sparky88 said:

I suspect now the Catalan independence movement will implode and do Rajoys job for him now. 

 

[Savage Henry]

1 hour ago, Jacksgranda said:

 

 

Yup.  There's no mandate, and both parties know it.  The independence voters seem to have been led to  believe they'd have independence this morning.  Puigdemont must surely have known fine well this is how it would play out, minus the indiscriminate violence, which nobody could have seen coming.  

Either he's intending to step down and leave somebody else to deal with the repercussions, or he's seriously overplayed his hand and he's going to have an awful lot of followers who end up in a weaker position than they were a week ago.

 

 

Edited October 11, 2017 by Savage Henry

[John Lambies Doos]

Catalonia will be asked to lead Spain, not leave. Nap

[Colkitto]

Puigdemont has thrown this back in the lap of Spain. It has to be addressed somewhere along the line by Spain and simply can't be ignored no matter how hard they try.

Spain will now have to intervene either by dialog or by force as Catalonia has now democratically gave notice of it's intention to become an independent State. 

[Baxter Parp]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/10/spain-braced-possible-catalonian-independence-declaration/

Carles Puigdemont, the president of Catalonia, on Tuesday evening put his signature to a document that declared the region’s independence from Spain, but then said the move would not be implemented for several weeks.

Ball's in Rajoy's court, if he doesn't enter into talks the UDI will go ahead and sympathy vote will go to Catalonia.

[tirso]

3 hours ago, Savage Henry said:

 

See post #871.

Leadership of the independence movement are reneging on a non-binding referendum after overplaying their hand. They can declare unilateral independence, but nobody will recognise it. Is declaring independence on a illegal referendum a criminal act? I have no idea, but this Puigdemont guy is setting himself up as a martyr to the cause. Anyone with a passing interest in Catalan politics will know it can be very ego driven.

 

If he wanted to be a martyr he would simply have declared UDI.  Martyr forever.   He has disappointed many Catalans now on both sides out of purely looking for a solution that weighs international pressure with the catalans right to decide.

I'm as disappointed as the next Catalan at the entire situation; I don't even want independence.  But the idea this is a machievellian plot to give him martyr status is not my reading.

Of course they have overplayed their hand... they don't have a hand in the court of international opinion.  That's hardly their fault.  Can only play with the cards they have been dealt.  

 

Edited October 11, 2017 by tirso

[tirso]

2 hours ago, Savage Henry said:

 

Yup.  There's no mandate, and both parties know it.  The independence voters seem to have been led to  believe they'd have independence this morning.  Puigdemont must surely have known fine well this is how it would play out, minus the indiscriminate violence, which nobody could have seen coming.  

Either he's intending to step down and leave somebody else to deal with the repercussions, or he's seriously overplayed his hand and he's going to have an awful lot of followers who end up in a weaker position than they were a week ago.

 

 

Out of interest what do you suggest people who want the right to decide do to democratically have this happen?

In my reading he's done the only thing he could do.  I don't castigate him for it.  He pushed for a vote to allow people to make a decision after voting through a law.  It's not like they just did this out of the blue.  When you are met with a brick wall what do you suggest.

[tirso]

1 hour ago, Baxter Parp said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/10/spain-braced-possible-catalonian-independence-declaration/

Carles Puigdemont, the president of Catalonia, on Tuesday evening put his signature to a document that declared the region’s independence from Spain, but then said the move would not be implemented for several weeks.

Ball's in Rajoy's court, if he doesn't enter into talks the UDI will go ahead and sympathy vote will go to Catalonia.

I agree with this if people worked to moral codes.  I hope it is true but I think Spain will just ignore it.  They are not interested and neither are the EU about these small countries.  

The EU said do not do UDI as this would stop dialogue.  Well Catalonia has held up its side of the bargain.  It's now for the EU to deliver its own promise.  I do not hold my breath.

[Savage Henry]

If he wanted to be a martyr he would simply have declared UDI.  Martyr forever.   He has disappointed many Catalans now on both sides out of purely looking for a solution that weighs international pressure with the catalans right to decide.
I'm as disappointed as the next Catalan at the entire situation; I don't even want independence.  But the idea this is a machievellian plot to give him martyr status is not my reading.
Of course they have overplayed their hand... they don't have a hand in the court of international opinion.  That's hardly their fault.  Can only play with the cards they have been dealt.  
 

Catalans don’t have a right to decide. It requires both local, state and international will. The local will is there. The state will clearly isn’t, at this point. International will could be there - given the shocking scenes on polling day. By jumping into statements like “we’ve already written a Declaration of Independence” on the basis of what was a very flimsy referendum, he’s actually prevented the chances of state support at any time, and detracted from the international, systemic will.

Machiavellian would not be my adjective of choice, either.

What they should have done is left the referendum as a key indicator of public will, and as a bargaining chip. Play things incrementally. Jumping all in, then resigning (as I would hazard a guess he will do)is self-serving and leaves one hell of a mess for whomever comes next.

UDI will destroy international support, and set the cause back decades by turning it into a joke. The more aggressive they are, the stronger the pushback will be. I agree that if it comes, it really would be overplaying his hand.

I think Puigdemont is having to walk back his earlier aggression, and it’s going to disappoint many on his own side. He’ll resign, and be able to say, “look, I brought you this far.” He had the basis of international support for about a day. He blew it by rushing. As you say, he’s pissed off both sides, and I don’t think he ever intended to play both ends against the middle.

[Baxter Parp]

4 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

Catalans don’t have a right to decide.

 

 

Yes they do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Covenant_on_Civil_and_Political_Rights: Part 1 (Article 1) recognizes the right of all peoples to self-determination, including the right to "freely determine their political status

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination The United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights article 15 states that everyone has the right to a nationality and that no one should be arbitrarily deprived of a nationality or denied the right to change nationality.

[Savage Henry]

Yes they do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Covenant_on_Civil_and_Political_Rights: Part 1 (Article 1) recognizes the right of all peoples to self-determination, including the right to "freely determine their political status

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination The United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights article 15 states that everyone has the right to a nationality and that no one should be arbitrarily deprived of a nationality or denied the right to change nationality.

 

Please don’t use Wikipedia as a source.

 

However, none of that equates to state formation.

 

[tirso]

15 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

 

Catalans don’t have a right to decide. It requires both local, state and international will. The local will is there. The state will clearly isn’t, at this point. International will could be there - given the shocking scenes on polling day. By jumping into statements like “we’ve already written a Declaration of Independence” on the basis of what was a very flimsy referendum, he’s actually prevented the chances of state support at any time, and detracted from the international, systemic will.

Machiavellian would not be my adjective of choice, either.

What they should have done is left the referendum as a key indicator of public will, and as a bargaining chip. Play things incrementally. Jumping all in, then resigning (as I would hazard a guess he will do)is self-serving and leaves one hell of a mess for whomever comes next.

UDI will destroy international support, and set the cause back decades by turning it into a joke. The more aggressive they are, the stronger the pushback will be. I agree that if it comes, it really would be overplaying his hand.

I think Puigdemont is having to walk back his earlier aggression, and it’s going to disappoint many on his own side. He’ll resign, and be able to say, “look, I brought you this far.” He had the basis of international support for about a day. He blew it by rushing. As you say, he’s pissed off both sides, and I don’t think he ever intended to play both ends against the middle.

 

Okay well as a Catalan I find the first sentence hard to digest.   But fair enough if it is your opinion.  I do not believe when a large majority of a people simply want to express their view it should be stopped by a larger state.  Not all peoples have a right to decide.  A city or a street doesn't but it's obvious when a people do.  

I still don't know what you think they should do to get a legal vote.  It seems regardless of anything they could do themselves you think their rights should be decided by Madrid and people in Europe with a shallow understanding of the situation and that's it.   You're offering no democratic route.  

but of course as you say they have no rights.  Their rights are only for them when granted by others.

 

Edited October 11, 2017 by tirso