John Lambies Doos Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 Erm... you do know the Soviet Union wasn't in the EU? In fairness, nor will Catalonia if it declares UDI. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 13 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: The EU deals in facts not fantasy. Any examples? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 19 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said: In fairness, nor will Catalonia if it declares UDI. Catalonia isn't the parent state. I actually have sympathy with the view that where there might be an overwhelming popular mandate that is being denied international intra-EU pressure would be applied to the Spanish. Burning a situation where at best for Yes it is 50/50 I think we can agree normal rules will apply. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 Catalonia isn't the parent state. Was Scotland?, we were told we'd be out the EU.Not sure it's up to the EU to recognise independent sovereign states; that's the UNs job... albeit the EU will wield powerful influence 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 2 hours ago, John Lambies Doos said: Was Scotland?, we were told we'd be out the EU. Not sure it's up to the EU to recognise independent sovereign states; that's the UNs job... albeit the EU will wield powerful influence No the UK was and if we had voted yes the rUK would have recognised Scotland as an independent state. You are confusing recognition of statehood with EU membership. Nobody ever suggested the EU or EU member states wouldn't recognise Scotland. The parent state would have recognised the secession and so there would be no impediment whatever to EU recognition. The argument was would Scotland have to reapply for EU membership and how difficult would that process be. It's not up to the UN to recognise independent states, it's up to states themselves to do that - see Kosovo. The UN can decide who is a member of the UN or not but none of that confers any obligation on other states to recognise them or treat them as a state. The opposite is also true, some states have full bilateral relationships with Palestine and Kosovo. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 1 hour ago, invergowrie arab said: No the UK was and if we had voted yes the rUK would have recognised Scotland as an independent state. You are confusing recognition of statehood with EU membership. Nobody ever suggested the EU or EU member states wouldn't recognise Scotland. The parent state would have recognised the secession and so there would be no impediment whatever to EU recognition. The argument was would Scotland have to reapply for EU membership and how difficult would that process be. It's not up to the UN to recognise independent states, it's up to states themselves to do that - see Kosovo. The UN can decide who is a member of the UN or not but none of that confers any obligation on other states to recognise them or treat them as a state. The opposite is also true, some states have full bilateral relationships with Palestine and Kosovo. That's it in a nutshell. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 Just got 6/1 on a no vote online through boyles 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAFC. Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 16 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said: Just got 6/1 on a no vote online through boyles Waste of money. It's going to be a resounding Yes #NotShitebags. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 Waste of money. It's going to be a resounding Yes #NotShitebags. Just hedging the chance of disappointment. Yes is 1/12 on 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 3 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said: Just hedging the chance of disappointment. Yes is 1/12 on I expect to get my No vote bet returned as void, there will be no way they can count it as official while many areas will be unable to vote, Barcelona for one. Without official sanction it can only be a fan vote. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 Why will Barcelona be unable to vote? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrewDon Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 I'm only half-following this from afar, but I'm not convinced that pro-Spain politicians are handling the issue in the most sensible manner; looking at other referendum experiences, concluding that the best strategy is to treat pro-secessionists as criminals strikes me as rather cack-handed. Maybe the most sensible thing they could do, if possible, is for Spain to find a way for Catalonia to hold a legal, advisory referendum; whilst that would certainly carry an element of risk for the unionists, they would likely have a very good chance of winning such a vote. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 22 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: Why will Barcelona be unable to vote? The Mayor said she was unwilling to order staff to break the law to organise it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, welshbairn said: The Mayor said she was unwilling to order staff to break the law to organise it. I'm sure the Catalan government could make the necessary arrangements. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul-r-cfc Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 Did a lot on Catalonia during my 4th year at uni. Spain have handled this horribly at every turn.General consensus has always been in Catalonia that they would accept greater autonomy if it was available (in line with the Basque Country) and that was about to happen before the constitutional court poo pooed the amendments to the statute of autonomy in 2010. It was from there that this major move towards independence has stemmed. Spain could have nipped this in the bud at any time by granting them the autonomy that was voted for in a 2006 referendum but they've done nothing but threaten and bully, merely emboldening secessionists and making independence the only viable option in the eyes of many.The legacy of fascism clearly still lingers in Spain and whatever happens here, it is entirely their fault. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 26 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: I'm sure the Catalan government could make the necessary arrangements. How do you persuade No voters to turn up for an illegal referendum? The result will be meaningless. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 Just now, welshbairn said: How do you persuade No voters to turn up for an illegal referendum? The result will be meaningless. If No voters don't turn up they will have no-one to blame but themselves for the consequences of their actions. I'm not sure why you think that it's an illegal referendum though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul-r-cfc Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 If No voters don't turn up they will have no-one to blame but themselves for the consequences of their actions. I'm not sure why you think that it's an illegal referendum though. The referendum itself isn't illegal per se but the constitution explicitly outlaws secession and seen as that is what the Catalan government has threatened to pursue in the event of a yes vote is enough for Spain to make a legal case against the referendum. The moral/political case against it is somewhat more shaky of course 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 57 minutes ago, DrewDon said: I'm only half-following this from afar, but I'm not convinced that pro-Spain politicians are handling the issue in the most sensible manner; looking at other referendum experiences, concluding that the best strategy is to treat pro-secessionists as criminals strikes me as rather cack-handed. Maybe the most sensible thing they could do, if possible, is for Spain to find a way for Catalonia to hold a legal, advisory referendum; whilst that would certainly carry an element of risk for the unionists, they would likely have a very good chance of winning such a vote. Its precisely what they should do. They could even offer to hold a fully binding one that a Yes votes moves to the next stage of altering the Spanish constitution @Ad Lib could explain better than me what would happen then. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 Just now, Tibbermoresaint said: If No voters don't turn up they will have no-one to blame but themselves for the consequences of their actions. I'm not sure why you think that it's an illegal referendum though. You know, constitution, law. stuff.. No equivalent of the Edinburgh Agreement. It will have no validity whatsoever outside the people organising and supporting it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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