Greg Docherty

[Craig McCulloch Burley]

Scotland try call up Crawford, Docherty, Kerr, Hendry, Lindsay (ex Partick Thistle), McGregor and who pacey with left full back (back up with Robertson because Tierney play right full back with Scotland now)

[red23]

55 minutes ago, Craig McCulloch Burley said:

Scotland try call up Crawford, Docherty, Kerr, Hendry, Lindsay (ex Partick Thistle), McGregor and who pacey with left full back (back up with Robertson because Tierney play right full back with Scotland now)

Sorry, what?

[Craig McCulloch Burley]

8 minutes ago, red23 said:

Sorry, what?

Scotland need strength squad

[harry94]

2 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

I find it a bit bewildering the quality of player missing out on U21 call ups. From Dundee - Cammy Kerr is 22 in September and has never once been called up by Scotland at any level. Jack Hendry is now 22, and hasn't as far as I'm aware received a single call up. I don't have much hope for Kerr Waddell either despite getting a regular first team game in the top flight of Scottish football.

If Kerr Waddell continues as a squad player, I'm pretty sure he'll get international recognition. I wouldn't be overly surprised if he's capped for the under 21s by the end of the year.

I think Cammy missed out because he kind of emerged slowly onto the scene and was never really considered that outstanding a youth prospect from a young age, he quietly went about his business and worked very hard on his game. If guys are hitting sort of 20 and haven't already been capped, they tend to get missed out as they'll just go for familiarity in their squads. Not necessarily fair but I suppose they want a squad they know well.

[Ludo*1]

30 minutes ago, harry94 said:

If Kerr Waddell continues as a squad player, I'm pretty sure he'll get international recognition. I wouldn't be overly surprised if he's capped for the under 21s by the end of the year.

I think Cammy missed out because he kind of emerged slowly onto the scene and was never really considered that outstanding a youth prospect from a young age, he quietly went about his business and worked very hard on his game. If guys are hitting sort of 20 and haven't already been capped, they tend to get missed out as they'll just go for familiarity in their squads. Not necessarily fair but I suppose they want a squad they know well.

Not sure I agree with that Harry. Cammy Kerr has been getting a first team game in the top flight of Scottish football for the best part of 3 seasons now with him slowly beginning to breakthrough the season before last. When you actually look at the back-line that's been called up in recent times, I think it highlights the fact that Cammy hasn't received recognition is poor fare. Alex Lacovitti - Currently on loan at Forest Green, Jamie McCart - His only first team football was under the shambolic Caley last season, Jordan McGhee - Lost his place at Hearts and slipped down the footballing ladder to Falkirk, Zak Jules - Highly rated, but was a joke figure in a poor Motherwell side, Kyle Cameron - Highest level of first team football was for Jackie McNamara's York City. These have all been recent call-ups whom admittedly don't all play in the exact same position as Cammy highlights the calibre of player we are calling up.

The current squad has Jason Kerr, Ross McCrorie, Scott McKenna, Calvin Miller, Anthony Ralston, Liam Smith, John Souttar and Greg Taylor as the selected defenders. Other than Souttar and Taylor, none have been regulars for the sides they are signed to, never mind vice captain of a top flight club. I'm not writing these players off, some will probably go on to have a lot better careers than the likes of Cammy Kerr but his constant omission has been rather strange considering who has managed to receive call-ups.

Going back to the original point, I think this applies to Greg Doherty as well. Our midfield for the U21's is a little stronger than the back-line looks to be with Mallan and Morgan (Although playing at a lower level, having been particular stand outs) it's pretty poor that a player who has played nigh on 100 games for a top flight club before he is 21 has a total of 2 U21 caps to his name.

 

[craigkillie]

48 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

The current squad has Jason Kerr, Ross McCrorie, Scott McKenna, Calvin Miller, Anthony Ralston, Liam Smith, John Souttar and Greg Taylor as the selected defenders. Other than Souttar and Taylor, none have been regulars for the sides they are signed to, never mind vice captain of a top flight club. I'm not writing these players off, some will probably go on to have a lot better careers than the likes of Cammy Kerr but his constant omission has been rather strange considering who has managed to receive call-ups.

The current U21 squad is for players born in 1996 or later.  Cammy Kerr was born in 1995.

[Ludo*1]

5 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

The current U21 squad is for players born in 1996 or later.  Cammy Kerr was born in 1995.

I think you've missed the point I was trying to make. It was more to do with the caliber of player being called up ie, players not really playing first team football. I'm not calling for Cammy to be called up (There would be very little point now, even if he were eligible as he's 22 later on this month), I'm stating that the players being consistently overlooked whilst starring for their club side at the top level in Scotland is ridiculous.

[craigkillie]

If you looked at Cammy Kerr in September 2015 (ie the equivalent stage to those guys you listed), he had played a total of 2 Premiership matches, and was on loan at Peterhead.  Smith has much more first team experience than that, while Jason Kerr and McKenna are in very similar situations now.  Ralston and Miller have featured a little bit for Celtic this season - both have played at least as many top flight matches than Kerr had at a similar point.  McCrorie is one I don't know much about.

The last games that Scotland U21s played where players in Cammy Kerr's age group were considered was against Macedonia and Ukraine in September 2016.  Even at that stage he had only played 16 top flight games for Dundee.  Of the defenders included in that squad, Steven Kingsley, Stephen Hendrie, Jordan McGhee and John Souttar were all much more experienced than Kerr, while Donald Love was getting a game in the English Premier League.  Liam Smith had played a similar number of top flight games to Kerr (12), and had the advantage of being eligible for the next campaign.  The only one I don't know about is Dominic Hyam of Reading.

Edited September 6, 2017 by craigkillie

[harry94]

1 hour ago, Ludo*1 said:

Not sure I agree with that Harry. Cammy Kerr has been getting a first team game in the top flight of Scottish football for the best part of 3 seasons now with him slowly beginning to breakthrough the season before last. When you actually look at the back-line that's been called up in recent times, I think it highlights the fact that Cammy hasn't received recognition is poor fare. Alex Lacovitti - Currently on loan at Forest Green, Jamie McCart - His only first team football was under the shambolic Caley last season, Jordan McGhee - Lost his place at Hearts and slipped down the footballing ladder to Falkirk, Zak Jules - Highly rated, but was a joke figure in a poor Motherwell side, Kyle Cameron - Highest level of first team football was for Jackie McNamara's York City. These have all been recent call-ups whom admittedly don't all play in the exact same position as Cammy highlights the calibre of player we are calling up.

The current squad has Jason Kerr, Ross McCrorie, Scott McKenna, Calvin Miller, Anthony Ralston, Liam Smith, John Souttar and Greg Taylor as the selected defenders. Other than Souttar and Taylor, none have been regulars for the sides they are signed to, never mind vice captain of a top flight club. I'm not writing these players off, some will probably go on to have a lot better careers than the likes of Cammy Kerr but his constant omission has been rather strange considering who has managed to receive call-ups.

Going back to the original point, I think this applies to Greg Doherty as well. Our midfield for the U21's is a little stronger than the back-line looks to be with Mallan and Morgan (Although playing at a lower level, having been particular stand outs) it's pretty poor that a player who has played nigh on 100 games for a top flight club before he is 21 has a total of 2 U21 caps to his name.

 

I do kind of agree with the general point you're making about guys being missed but I think with Cammy, he'd come back to the first team in January 2016. As the other poster points out, Donald Love was well established in the Scotland set-up and was playing in the English third tier before then. Jordan McGhee had also been a regular in the top flight since the start of the season with a strongly performing Hearts team.

Being quite harsh, I think he had quite a tough start to the next season too. Up until October, we'd played some tough matches and he'd been dropped with Hateley arriving. It wasn't really until our decent run of form up to the festive period where people had stopped the debate about his abilities and he didn't look more established than the above two. He's maybe unfortunate Liam Smith got ahead of him as I think he had a bit less game time at Hearts but when he was selected, he had more games at this level and was considered, more widely, a good prospect.

If he were even a year younger, I think he'd have made it over the guys you've listed but I think that since he's looked one of the best options at that age group, it's just hit at an awkward time with no games. Being brutally honest, if I was considering myself as a neutral, I probably wouldn't have had him near selection during the last campaign. He's improved a huge amount in a short time.

I think with 5 games a year which generally only take place over a couple of months, a lot of guys will miss out naturally for similar reasons.

[woof!]

9 hours ago, craigkillie said:

If you looked at Cammy Kerr in September 2015 (ie the equivalent stage to those guys you listed), he had played a total of 2 Premiership matches, and was on loan at Peterhead.  Smith has much more first team experience than that, while Jason Kerr and McKenna are in very similar situations now.  Ralston and Miller have featured a little bit for Celtic this season - both have played at least as many top flight matches than Kerr had at a similar point.  McCrorie is one I don't know much about.

The last games that Scotland U21s played where players in Cammy Kerr's age group were considered was against Macedonia and Ukraine in September 2016.  Even at that stage he had only played 16 top flight games for Dundee.  Of the defenders included in that squad, Steven Kingsley, Stephen Hendrie, Jordan McGhee and John Souttar were all much more experienced than Kerr, while Donald Love was getting a game in the English Premier League.  Liam Smith had played a similar number of top flight games to Kerr (12), and had the advantage of being eligible for the next campaign.  The only one I don't know about is Dominic Hyam of Reading.

Great answer. Kerr and Docherty should bide their time. The whole back four were superb against the Netherlands this week. Docherty perhaps could have been there, but again the midfield played extremely well.

[The Moonster]

17 hours ago, Owsley said:

Has Docherty actually given any indication that he's thinking of jumping ship? I haven't seen the article.

Not in the article in the OP but he has said "I want to represent Scotland again. If it came to it though, you never know" when asked if he was thinking about changing allegiances to Ireland here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41176997

I really don't know why this needs played out in the press with threats of leaving for Ireland. There are plenty players of that age missing out and these squads change a lot from fixture to fixture. Just keep playing good football and your time will come.

[AMMjag]

Liam Lindsay was a key player for us through all of last season and won a place in the league's team of the year. He's still never been capped at u21 level, seeing far less accomplished players selected ahead of him.

There's clearly no apparent logic to the selection process at this level, so it's easy to understand the frustration of players like Lindsay and Docherty. They should be comforted by the fact it's an utterly pointless level of football anyway and they're much better off using the time to put their feet up.

[craigkillie]

On 06/09/2017 at 18:04, Ludo*1 said:

I find it a bit bewildering the quality of player missing out on U21 call ups. From Dundee - Cammy Kerr is 22 in September and has never once been called up by Scotland at any level. Jack Hendry is now 22, and hasn't as far as I'm aware received a single call up. I don't have much hope for Kerr Waddell either despite getting a regular first team game in the top flight of Scottish football.

Bewildering.

[RandomGuy.]

On 06/09/2017 at 21:16, Ludo*1 said:

The current squad has Jason Kerr, Ross McCrorie, Scott McKenna, Calvin Miller, Anthony Ralston, Liam Smith, John Souttar and Greg Taylor as the selected defenders. Other than Souttar and Taylor, none have been regulars for the sides they are signed to, never mind vice captain of a top flight club. I'm not writing these players off, some will probably go on to have a lot better careers than the likes of Cammy Kerr but his constant omission has been rather strange considering who has managed to receive call-ups.

 

Jason Kerr now captain of a top flight side at the age of 22.

Scenes you love to see.

[Ludo*1]

1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

Bewildering.

Jack Hendry has a few caps now. Thanks for reminding me.

Cammy Kerr and Hendry should certainly have been capped at U21 level. Unquestionably. Cammy hasn't kicked on as well as I'd have liked and certainly isn't anywhere near Scotland full team quality.

[Busta Nut]

where is Docherty?

[RandomGuy.]

8 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

where is Docherty?

One of many youngsters rotting at Rangers. Add him to the likes Jake Hastie, Jordan Jones and Greg Stewart as players signed solely so other Scottish sides, like Aberdeen, couldnt sign them.

[Busta Nut]

I thought so. Wasn't sure though.

I know he was in England (on loan I presume)

 

[craigkillie]

Docherty was a regular under Caixinha and Murty after they signed him, before he was found out for being a wee bit shite.

 

[RobbieD]

4 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

Jack Hendry has a few caps now. Thanks for reminding me.

Cammy Kerr and Hendry should certainly have been capped at U21 level. Unquestionably. Cammy hasn't kicked on as well as I'd have liked and certainly isn't anywhere near Scotland full team quality.

He’s not even Dundee quality now