Jump to content
SandyCromarty

Present Korea Crisis

Recommended Posts

For much of my working life I worked, travelled and lived in the Far East so I have some understanding of what lies beneath the present tension.

What most people in the west are not aware of is that Japan is despised in most of the countries throughout the far east, especially in China, most of the angst is quietly suppressed owing largely to the amount of business that has emanated from Japan since the end of World War 2, where Japans growth was totally funded by the USA  and encouraged by General Macarthur, success was largely due to the funding but especially to the hard work and industry of the Japanese people.

The hatred stems from Japan's militaristic expansion from the early 1930's to 1940, their invasions of far east countries were exceptionally brutal, China and the Korean peninsula suffered the worst, in Nanjing alone, a beautiful city now and well worth a visit, the Japanese massacred and raped an estimated 200,000 Chinese people, no mercy was given and the full figure will never be known, this was just one of the cities and provinces razed, a Chinese friend loaned me a modern movie of the rape of Nanjing and though it was in Chinese the scenes were indescribable. 

Korea suffered a similar fate with the killing of men woman and children with little and no regard for humanity.

So in a way this does explain the clown Kim Jong un's threat towards Japan by firing an ICBM over the Japanese mainland. 

For the situation between America, led by the Brothel Keepers Grandson, and North Korea you have to look at the cessation of WWII where we entered a clear fight between capitalism and communism where the two nations attempted to conquer the world with their conflicting ideologies,

The Russians funded Chinese communist army led by Mao tse Tung went to war with the Chinese nationalist army led by Chiang Kai Shek which was massively funded by the Americans, the communists won and pushed the nationalists out of mainland china and on to the island of Formosa, now Taiwan, as a BTW when I first visited Taiwan there was a curfew every night in the major cities where we all had to off the streets as they were still on a war footing.

So with that red success in china Mao turned his attention to Korea convincing the present leaders grandfather that Mao's way was the right way, America decided that Korea would be better off with their way and a war ensued involving mainly American troops backed by British and Australian armies, (Speakman won his VC there), the war initially went badly for the western forces as the Koreans massively re-enforced with chinese troops pushed the allies back as far south as Pusan, Busan now. The communists would have won except for General Macarthurs brilliant beach landings in the middle of Korea at Inchon which managed to cut off supplies to the communists.

The rest is history with the DMZ set up at the 57th Parallel and the ensuing stand off to where we are today.

Seoul is a lovely city, vibrant and full of life but unfortunately if this crisis escalates to war then it will be first in the firing line.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, SandyCromarty said:

For much of my working life I worked, travelled and lived in the Far East so I have some understanding of what lies beneath the present tension.

What most people in the west are not aware of is that Japan is despised in most of the countries throughout the far east, especially in China, most of the angst is quietly suppressed owing largely to the amount of business that has emanated from Japan since the end of World War 2, where Japans growth was totally funded by the USA  and encouraged by General Macarthur, success was largely due to the funding but especially to the hard work and industry of the Japanese people.

The hatred stems from Japan's militaristic expansion from the early 1930's to 1940, their invasions of far east countries were exceptionally brutal, China and the Korean peninsula suffered the worst, in Nanjing alone, a beautiful city now and well worth a visit, the Japanese massacred and raped an estimated 200,000 Chinese people, no mercy was given and the full figure will never be known, this was just one of the cities and provinces razed, a Chinese friend loaned me a modern movie of the rape of Nanjing and though it was in Chinese the scenes were indescribable. 

Korea suffered a similar fate with the killing of men woman and children with little and no regard for humanity.

So in a way this does explain the clown Kim Jong un's threat towards Japan by firing an ICBM over the Japanese mainland. 

For the situation between America, led by the Brothel Keepers Grandson, and North Korea you have to look at the cessation of WWII where we entered a clear fight between capitalism and communism where the two nations attempted to conquer the world with their conflicting ideologies,

The Russians funded Chinese communist army led by Mao tse Tung went to war with the Chinese nationalist army led by Chiang Kai Shek which was massively funded by the Americans, the communists won and pushed the nationalists out of mainland china and on to the island of Formosa, now Taiwan, as a BTW when I first visited Taiwan there was a curfew every night in the major cities where we all had to off the streets as they were still on a war footing.

So with that red success in china Mao turned his attention to Korea convincing the present leaders grandfather that Mao's way was the right way, America decided that Korea would be better off with their way and a war ensued involving mainly American troops backed by British and Australian armies, (Speakman won his VC there), the war initially went badly for the western forces as the Koreans massively re-enforced with chinese troops pushed the allies back as far south as Pusan, Busan now. The communists would have won except for General Macarthurs brilliant beach landings in the middle of Korea at Inchon which managed to cut off supplies to the communists.

The rest is history with the DMZ set up at the 57th Parallel and the ensuing stand off to where we are today.

Seoul is a lovely city, vibrant and full of life but unfortunately if this crisis escalates to war then it will be first in the firing line.

 

I've never set foot in the far east, but I got this in 2nd year modern studies. There's also a thread already created for this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a huge ongoing thread about North Korea under the "general nonsense forum"

Why it is not in the politics forum - I don't know but there you go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My understanding is that Korea was split in two to appease the Russians who wanted a foothold in Japan but the Americans would not allow it.

Korea was divided at the 57 parallel as you say - even if geography was not so obliging.

In 1950, Kim Il Sung invaded the South with encouragement from Stalin.
They captured almost all of it apart a small are around Pusan.

The Americans intervened, using the United Nations to authorize their action (Russia and China were at that time boycotting the UN).
Following a successful counter strike at Inchon, they pushed the North Koreans back.
They then decided to push north in North Korea despite warnings from China.
After America had capture most of North Korea, the Chinese invaded and pushed them back.
After 3 years, they reached stalemate at roughly the same position as where they started although the city of Chosun went from the South into the North and the border became a single continuous line.

Yes, the Japanese were truly horrible in the Second World War and thus were hated by most countries in the region.

However, the main reasons that North Korea behaves the way it does it because it is communist and communists tend to be paranoid but also because North Korea is a failed economy that was being propped up by the Soviet Union and now China.
If the regime collapses, there is every expectation that reunification with the South would eventually happen and all those in charge in North Korea would be charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

My understanding is that Korea was split in two to appease the Russians who wanted a foothold in Japan but the Americans would not allow it.

Korea was divided at the 57 parallel as you say - even if geography was not so obliging.

In 1950, Kim Il Sung invaded the South with encouragement from Stalin.
They captured almost all of it apart a small are around Pusan.

The Americans intervened, using the United Nations to authorize their action (Russia and China were at that time boycotting the UN).
Following a successful counter strike at Inchon, they pushed the North Koreans back.
They then decided to push north in North Korea despite warnings from China.
After America had capture most of North Korea, the Chinese invaded and pushed them back.
After 3 years, they reached stalemate at roughly the same position as where they started although the city of Chosun went from the South into the North and the border became a single continuous line.

Yes, the Japanese were truly horrible in the Second World War and thus were hated by most countries in the region.

However, the main reasons that North Korea behaves the way it does it because it is communist and communists tend to be paranoid but also because North Korea is a failed economy that was being propped up by the Soviet Union and now China.
If the regime collapses, there is every expectation that reunification with the South would eventually happen and all those in charge in North Korea would be charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity.

 

 

The Russians seized Sakhalin island from Japan after the second world war, the island had yo-yo'd between the two for centuries, interestingly there is some major oil production and exploration activity there and a friend of mine some years back used to take nearly four days to get to work there from Aberdeen, the journey eventually involved a 14 hour train journey across the island.

The boycott was hardly surprising at that time considering the headquarters are in New York, would America have supported the UN if it was headquartered in Moscow?

Yes you are correct mentioning communist fears, but the Soviet Union as such failed eventually and China's booming economy is driven by their access to American and western consumerism, on my earlier visits to China bicycles were the main form of transport, and that wasn't that long ago, now it's mercs and beemers and a nouveau riche middle class mindset, houses prices in cities like Chengdu and Sian have gone through the roof again all driven by their exports, if America shuts the tap in to this access to our markets then there would probably be a massive public outcry as the loss of revenue would kick in resulting in widespread unrest.  

Edited by SandyCromarty
Addition

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 04/09/2017 at 13:02, Fullerene said:

My understanding is that Korea was split in two to appease the Russians who wanted a foothold in Japan but the Americans would not allow it.

Korea was divided at the 57 parallel as you say - even if geography was not so obliging.

In 1950, Kim Il Sung invaded the South with encouragement from Stalin.
They captured almost all of it apart a small are around Pusan.

The Americans intervened, using the United Nations to authorize their action (Russia and China were at that time boycotting the UN).
Following a successful counter strike at Inchon, they pushed the North Koreans back.
They then decided to push north in North Korea despite warnings from China.
After America had capture most of North Korea, the Chinese invaded and pushed them back.
After 3 years, they reached stalemate at roughly the same position as where they started although the city of Chosun went from the South into the North and the border became a single continuous line.

Yes, the Japanese were truly horrible in the Second World War and thus were hated by most countries in the region.

However, the main reasons that North Korea behaves the way it does it because it is communist and communists tend to be paranoid but also because North Korea is a failed economy that was being propped up by the Soviet Union and now China.
If the regime collapses, there is every expectation that reunification with the South would eventually happen and all those in charge in North Korea would be charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity.

 

 

 

You're omitting the widespread devastation caused by the United States on the Korean peninsula, the fact that the US is also the only nation to deploy nuclear weapons against another nation, the economic sanctions imposed on North Korea and that the USA has a loooooong track record of destabilising regimes which it does not approve of. That paranoia is not completely misplaced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 

You're omitting the widespread devastation caused by the United States on the Korean peninsula, the fact that the US is also the only nation to deploy nuclear weapons against another nation, the economic sanctions imposed on North Korea and that the USA has a loooooong track record of destabilising regimes which it does not approve of. That paranoia is not completely misplaced.

Quite difficult to see how that could've been avoided, what with the North invading and all....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think that's an excuse for the level of devastation wrought on North Korea. The USA dropped more explosives on North Korea than they did the entirety of the Pacific Theatre in World War Two, wrecked more devastation on North Korea's cities than Japan or Germany and killed what a US general estimated as 20% of the population. People don't forget that, well apart from the Americans of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4 September 2017 at 10:27, SandyCromarty said:

For much of my working life I worked, travelled and lived in the Far East so I have some understanding of what lies beneath the present tension.

What most people in the west are not aware of is that Japan is despised in most of the countries throughout the far east, especially in China, most of the angst is quietly suppressed owing largely to the amount of business that has emanated from Japan since the end of World War 2, where Japans growth was totally funded by the USA  and encouraged by General Macarthur, success was largely due to the funding but especially to the hard work and industry of the Japanese people.

The hatred stems from Japan's militaristic expansion from the early 1930's to 1940, their invasions of far east countries were exceptionally brutal, China and the Korean peninsula suffered the worst, in Nanjing alone, a beautiful city now and well worth a visit, the Japanese massacred and raped an estimated 200,000 Chinese people, no mercy was given and the full figure will never be known, this was just one of the cities and provinces razed, a Chinese friend loaned me a modern movie of the rape of Nanjing and though it was in Chinese the scenes were indescribable. 

Korea suffered a similar fate with the killing of men woman and children with little and no regard for humanity.

So in a way this does explain the clown Kim Jong un's threat towards Japan by firing an ICBM over the Japanese mainland. 

For the situation between America, led by the Brothel Keepers Grandson, and North Korea you have to look at the cessation of WWII where we entered a clear fight between capitalism and communism where the two nations attempted to conquer the world with their conflicting ideologies,

The Russians funded Chinese communist army led by Mao tse Tung went to war with the Chinese nationalist army led by Chiang Kai Shek which was massively funded by the Americans, the communists won and pushed the nationalists out of mainland china and on to the island of Formosa, now Taiwan, as a BTW when I first visited Taiwan there was a curfew every night in the major cities where we all had to off the streets as they were still on a war footing.

So with that red success in china Mao turned his attention to Korea convincing the present leaders grandfather that Mao's way was the right way, America decided that Korea would be better off with their way and a war ensued involving mainly American troops backed by British and Australian armies, (Speakman won his VC there), the war initially went badly for the western forces as the Koreans massively re-enforced with chinese troops pushed the allies back as far south as Pusan, Busan now. The communists would have won except for General Macarthurs brilliant beach landings in the middle of Korea at Inchon which managed to cut off supplies to the communists.

The rest is history with the DMZ set up at the 57th Parallel and the ensuing stand off to where we are today.

Seoul is a lovely city, vibrant and full of life but unfortunately if this crisis escalates to war then it will be first in the firing line.

 

Did you get that of a packet of Kimchi noodles ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

I don't think that's an excuse for the level of devastation wrought on North Korea. The USA dropped more explosives on North Korea than they did the entirety of the Pacific Theatre in World War Two, wrecked more devastation on North Korea's cities than Japan or Germany and killed what a US general estimated as 20% of the population. People don't forget that, well apart from the Americans of course.

You are correct here. They also dropped more bombs on Vietnam than they did in the Second World War.
You are also correct to say that America likes to get rid of leaders it does like including those it use to like but who developed an independent streak, such as Noriega and Hussein.
Along with the British, they helped to get rid of an elected leader in Iran and another one in Chile.
I would question their approach in Central America, South America, Africa, the Middle East and elsewhere.
Their record is certainly patchy.

However, it was the North who started the Korean War.
If you want to avoid the casualties - don't start the war.
Seems fairly obvious to me.

Let's put America to one side here.
Do you think everybody else is okay with what Kim is doing?
Do you think anyone else is okay with it?
Do you think South Korea and Japan don't mind?
Seriously.

Under what circumstances could anyone attack North Korea while China simply looks on?
China has nuclear weapons.  Why does North Korea need them as well?

North Korean paranoia is not simply about the USA - it is about everyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You are correct here. They also dropped more bombs on Vietnam than they did in the Second World War.
You are also correct to say that America likes to get rid of leaders it does like including those it use to like but who developed an independent streak, such as Noriega and Hussein.
Along with the British, they helped to get rid of an elected leader in Iran and another one in Chile.
I would question their approach in Central America, South America, Africa, the Middle East and elsewhere.
Their record is certainly patchy.
However, it was the North who started the Korean War.
If you want to avoid the casualties - don't start the war.
Seems fairly obvious to me.
Let's put America to one side here.
Do you think everybody else is okay with what Kim is doing?
Do you think anyone else is okay with it?
Do you think South Korea and Japan don't mind?
Seriously.
Under what circumstances could anyone attack North Korea while China simply looks on?
China has nuclear weapons.  Why does North Korea need them as well?
North Korean paranoia is not simply about the USA - it is about everyone.


Correct. The Wotsit Powder Moron has merely sped up the process. Nobody was ever going to be enamoured with North Korea. At some point, regime change will need to be considered, as the internal checks and balance (which stop Trump in most of his policies) aren't as clear cut in the long term North

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The two countries you've listed, South Korea and Japan, are hardly long term friends of North Korea either. One was a fascist dictatorship which are viewed as an occupying regime by the North and the other waged a horrifying conflict against the Korean people. As for why the North are trying to acquire their own weapons, I imagine they feel more secure with their own deterrent than relying on the graces of their neighbours. I suppose it has similarities to an extent with the Brits and French having their own nuclear weapons. It's probably easier to feel more secure if you have your own deterrent than hoping your neighbours will risk all out nuclear war to protect an ally. It's also a bit pointless to put America to one side. They are the world hegemonic power, the only power to ever deploy a nuclear weapon against another nation and have a proven track record of intervention, occupation and support for regime change and the ongoing ability to deploy their military around the world. I don't disagree that there is an element of paranoia but it's not entirely misplaced however easy it is to chalk it up to a mad dictator.

 

 

This is a good podcast that covers the media's complicity in ramping up tension in North Korea and has a decidedly horrifying clip of Lindsay Graham advocating for "pre-emptive strikes" on North Korea which are fine because apparently those people over there aren't really of interest to a US president.

Edited by NotThePars

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, McQuade said:

Did you get that of a packet of Kimchi noodles ?

I feckin can't stand Kimchi, I had a Kimchi cooker type of thing in my apartment and I only opened it the once, the feckin smell was overpowering, as a btw most of South Korea's cabbage kimchi crop goes to Japan and the SK's import theirs from China.

Disgusting stuff.

Here's another one for you, at special times of the year supermarkets set aisles aside stocked wholly with presentation tins of Spam in all shapes and sizes, plus they have female assistants dressed in the Korean national dress encouraging you to buy.

It must be from the war days when the americans handed it out to a hungry population.

When you visit most barbecue restaurants in Korea they have a chiller where you can choose various types of meat and sure enough there in all it's glory will be spam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

 


Correct. The Wotsit Powder Moron has merely sped up the process. Nobody was ever going to be enamoured with North Korea. At some point, regime change will need to be considered, as the internal checks and balance (which stop Trump in most of his policies) aren't as clear cut in the long term North

 

Regime change would need Chinese backing and guarantees maybe with a permanent Chinese base in the new north, but that seems to be the only answer.

there is no Military solution even leaving aside Kims new toys and China wouldn't let any meaningful sanctions take place for risk of their Western buffer collapsing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 04/09/2017 at 10:27, SandyCromarty said:

For much of my working life I worked, travelled and lived in the Far East

 

poster,210x230,f8f8f8-pad,210x230,f8f8f8.lite-1u5.jpg

Edited by McQuade

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

The two countries you've listed, South Korea and Japan, are hardly long term friends of North Korea either. One was a fascist dictatorship which are viewed as an occupying regime by the North and the other waged a horrifying conflict against the Korean people. As for why the North are trying to acquire their own weapons, I imagine they feel more secure with their own deterrent than relying on the graces of their neighbours. I suppose it has similarities to an extent with the Brits and French having their own nuclear weapons. It's probably easier to feel more secure if you have your own deterrent than hoping your neighbours will risk all out nuclear war to protect an ally. It's also a bit pointless to put America to one side. They are the world hegemonic power, the only power to ever deploy a nuclear weapon against another nation and have a proven track record of intervention, occupation and support for regime change and the ongoing ability to deploy their military around the world. I don't disagree that there is an element of paranoia but it's not entirely misplaced however easy it is to chalk it up to a mad dictator.

 

 

This is a good podcast that covers the media's complicity in ramping up tension in North Korea and has a decidedly horrifying clip of Lindsay Graham advocating for "pre-emptive strikes" on North Korea which are fine because apparently those people over there aren't really of interest to a US president.

Which one was the fascistic dictatorship that was viewed as an occupying force by North Korea? 

North Korea invaded the South - not the other way around.  When the UN intervened, including the US and the UK, they pushed the North forces back and then continued into North Korea in the same way that we pushed into Nazi Germany.

For a long time, South Korea was a fascist dictatorship, not a nice place to be and arguably just as bad as the North.  Not sure anyone would say it is still like that now it is no longer a dictatorship.

I was told that In South Korea they routinely rake the beaches in order to detect if North Koreans are attempting to come ashore under cover of darkness.  Not sure how true that is - but they have attacked South Korean force without provocation, and dug tunnels under the DMZ.

They have also kidnapped Japanese citizens, including an actress and a film director that Kim Jong Il quite liked.

Yes, America is the most powerful military country in the world but sometimes it is a good idea to consider world events from a perspective that isn't totally focused on America.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Fullerene said:

Which one was the fascistic dictatorship that was viewed as an occupying force by North Korea? 

North Korea invaded the South - not the other way around.  When the UN intervened, including the US and the UK, they pushed the North forces back and then continued into North Korea in the same way that we pushed into Nazi Germany.

For a long time, South Korea was a fascist dictatorship, not a nice place to be and arguably just as bad as the North.  Not sure anyone would say it is still like that now it is no longer a dictatorship.

I was told that In South Korea they routinely rake the beaches in order to detect if North Koreans are attempting to come ashore under cover of darkness.  Not sure how true that is - but they have attacked South Korean force without provocation, and dug tunnels under the DMZ.

They have also kidnapped Japanese citizens, including an actress and a film director that Kim Jong Il quite liked.

Yes, America is the most powerful military country in the world but sometimes it is a good idea to consider world events from a perspective that isn't totally focused on America.    

If you're talking about Choi Eun-hee & Shin Sang-ok, they were South Korean, not Japanese.

This book is an excellent read.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, lichtgilphead said:

If you're talking about Choi Eun-hee & Shin Sang-ok, they were South Korean, not Japanese.

This book is an excellent read.

Sorry, you are right but North Korea did kidnapped Japanese as well.  When Kim Jong Il admitted that it was all true - he was surprised at the criticism he got.

"Criticize me, when I deny things.  Criticize me when I tell the truth.  I can't win." 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's also the hundreds (at least) of remaining American POWs from the war that NK deny all knowledge of, and the hundreds of thousands of South Koreans.

They're an odd bunch. The noises coming out from escapees over the past few years has been a move towards a slightly more 'capitalist' country (in the loosest sense, obviously) and the tiniest bit of dissent creeping in. The current escalation will distract from that, you'd expect.

Bit odd to see some white-knighting of them at the moment though. They've broken pretty much every international law over the past fifty years and engage in organised genocide. The day the Kim dynasty falls will ultimately be a good one for the Korean people. Steve Bannon called it right though - there is no military solution. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×