Too Far (Erasing History ) Removal of Statues

[Tony Ferrino]

3 hours ago, nsr said:

How about a compromise. Keep them put install traffic cones on their heads.

Use their cocks for fountains.

[welshbairn]

8 minutes ago, HenryHill said:

Really, really high pyramid - can't see the point.

Exactly, a benevolent job creation scheme.

[jagfox]

Massive hologram gifs are the way forward...

[Tony Ferrino]

20 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Except they weren't slaves. Money and wages weren't a thing then, and it kept people fed over the winter. Conditions were decent. So TV docs tell me anyway.

The Martian alliance was even better than the EU by all accounts.

[bennett]

31 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Except they weren't slaves. Money and wages weren't a thing then, and it kept people fed over the winter. Conditions were decent. So TV docs tell me anyway.

You'll be giving our Tory overlords ideas here.

 

[knee jerk reaction]

2 hours ago, Shandon Par said:

Sign him up.  He can't be any less mobile than your current central defenders. 

Harsh but fair...lol.

[invergowrie arab]

Nobody seemed to give a f**k when they were tearing down statues of top boys like Lenin 

Get them down and replace them with piles of aristos heads

[TheProgressiveLiberal]

Tearing down history and monuments that are still important to lots of people's identities in the current world is a recipe for social conflict. What I've always said is that progressives or minority people should concentrate their energies on building monuments to their heroes.

[invergowrie arab]

4 minutes ago, TheProgressiveLiberal said:

Tearing down history and monuments that are still important to lots of people's identities in the current world is a recipe for social conflict. What I've always said is that progressives or minority people should concentrate their energies on building monuments to their heroes.

Social and indeed any conflict with people who identify with proponents of slavery is absolutely fine.

[TheProgressiveLiberal]

1 hour ago, McQuade said:

I doubt "they" want Nelson's column pulled down as it has black sailors carved on it?

As for Robert E Lee and the likes statues ,they weren't erect in their era , they were erected generations later, mainly to symbolise white supremorcy in the South.

1. This is at best a contested explanation.

2. Does their meaning today have relevance. Every poll shows only about 1/4 of people in the US view Confederate symbolism as racist. Most people who support keeping the statues would say that racism has nothing to do with why they considered the statues important.

 

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, TheProgressiveLiberal said:

1. This is at best a contested explanation.

2. Does their meaning today have relevance. Every poll shows only about 1/4 of people in the US view Confederate symbolism as racist. Most people who support keeping the statues would say that racism has nothing to do with why they considered the statues important.

 

How many racists are likely to answer in a poll that they want to protect Confederate symbolism because they hate black people?

[TheProgressiveLiberal]

1 minute ago, invergowrie arab said:

Social and indeed any conflict with people who identify with proponents of slavery is absolutely fine.

So which monuments to Scottish war dead get to stay. Certainly every Scottish soldier in the modern era up to WWII fought explicitly for the subjugation of brown races by white races. You could make and argument that this is true of WWII as well, but we've gone back and modified things based on what we later found out about the Nazis. 

There was a poll out recently that around 90% of people in the US oppose pulling down monuments to our Founding Fathers. Most of them were slave owners. Do we pull all those down as well.

[invergowrie arab]

Just now, TheProgressiveLiberal said:

So which monuments to Scottish war dead get to stay. Certainly every Scottish soldier in the modern era up to WWII fought explicitly for the subjugation of brown races by white races. You could make and argument that this is true of WWII as well, but we've gone back and modified things based on what we later found out about the Nazis. 

There was a poll out recently that around 90% of people in the US oppose pulling down monuments to our Founding Fathers. Most of them were slave owners. Do we pull all those down as well.

Monuments to Scottish War dead who were conscripted into the service of the british empire get to stay. Statues of the politicians, royals and generals who put them there can go.

This game is pretty easy TBH

 

[TheProgressiveLiberal]

2 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

How many racists are likely to answer in a poll that they want to protect Confederate symbolism because they hate black people?

Do you acknowledge that people could have reasons other than racism for supporting Southern heritage?

And why would the majority of people who have no skin in the fight regarding Confederate symbols say they don't view them as racist?

[TheProgressiveLiberal]

2 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

Monuments to Scottish War dead who were conscripted into the service of the british empire get to stay. Statues of the politicians, royals and generals who put them there can go.

This game is pretty easy TBH

 

Ok. But Democrats in the US are currently tearing down monuments to ordinary Confederate soldiers.

[invergowrie arab]

Just now, TheProgressiveLiberal said:

Do you acknowledge that people could have reasons other than racism for supporting Southern heritage?

And why would the majority of people who have no skin in the fight regarding Confederate symbols say they don't view them as racist?

A lot of black people have lived in the south just as long as white. Do a lot of them celebrate their southern heritage or fly confederate symbols. I would have thought so given it is no more than an expression of geographical localtion.

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

2 minutes ago, TheProgressiveLiberal said:

Do you acknowledge that people could have reasons other than racism for supporting Southern heritage?

And why would the majority of people who have no skin in the fight regarding Confederate symbols say they don't view them as racist?

People who have been flayed deserve a statue IMO.

[TheProgressiveLiberal]

Just now, invergowrie arab said:

A lot of black people have lived in the south just as long as white. Do a lot of them celebrate their southern heritage or fly confederate symbols. I would have thought so given it is no more than an expression of geographical localtion.

The US South is a bicultural region, more than the rest of the US. There are two distinct people groups who live there. Everyone knows this. There's no reason both groups can't have separate symbols in addition to common symbols. Sports logos might be common symbols. Confederate era vs. Civil Rights era symbols can be separate. No need to fight each other. Just acknowledge reality that there are two cultures sharing a space and it's best of social peace not to try and tear down the other groups symbols.

[Bully Wee Villa]

People in the South seem to be c***s. Germany oppressed people on the grounds of their race, then lost a war, but at least they have the decency to be quite apologetic about the whole thing. No mainstream politicians in Heidelberg are wearing Third Reich insignia or moaning that the Hitler statues got pulled down.

[TheProgressiveLiberal]

1 minute ago, McQuade said:

1. No it isn't

2. Evidence?

1. Yes it is. Plenty of historians offer other explanations. Likely there were lots of reasons, and race was part of it.

2. Last poll on the Confederate flag was done shortly after the Dylan Roof shooting.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2015/images/07/01/confederate.flag.pdf

33% consider the Confederate flag racist.

Even blacks opposed renaming streets, highways, etc  at 63% and tributes to confederates from public places at 50%. 68% and 71% for the public overall.

http://wtvr.com/2017/08/17/poll-confederate-statues-remain/

New poll out in past few days say only 27% of Americans favor taking down Confederate statues.