Junior Internationals – questions, help, clarification, etc.

[bluedragon 62]

On 28/01/2018 at 12:34, bluedragon said:

4 February 1963 SJFA Amateur XI v SFA Amateur XI (Annfield, Stirling)

Hastings (Nithsdale Wanderers) – forename or even just an initial required.

 

I am now following a lead for "Hastings (Nithsdale Wanderers)" and I hope that someone might be able to help.

Sam Hastings joined Hamilton Accies from Nithsdale Wanderers on 11 May 1957 at 17 years of age. He played seven seasons for Accies (139 league matches & 74 goals). He signed for Clyde from Hamilton Accies on 10 August 1964 and played for eight seasons (217 league appearances & 42 goals). He left Clyde at the end of the 1971/72 season and had short spells at Alloa and Queen of the South in the 1972/73 season before hanging up his boots. So far as I can see Sam Hastings played Senior football continuously and seems to have been a first team regular at Hamilton Accies and there is no sign of a break where he could have been re-instated as Junior. The player I am looking for would have been on an amateur form. He must be a brother or a relative of Sam. It looks too much to be a coincidence otherwise.

I have been given the name of John (Ian) Hastings who played for Whitletts Victoria  (1964-70) and later for Auchinleck Talbot as a possibility. Apart from the name there are two other clues.

1) Nithsdale Wanderers went defunct in 1964 and so could tie in with signing for Whitletts Vics in the same year.

2) With Nithsdale Wanderers playing in Sanquhar a move to a South Ayrshire club looks more likely.

It may of course be a red herring but if anyone can either provide a link or discount it then it would be very much appreciated.

Thank you.

[bluedragon 62]

We need some more help please. This time we are looking for a forename(s) or even just a first initial for the following players. By arranging them in club order and with a year(s) that they played I hope it may help people remember where an old club handbook may be kept  or an old team photograph may be hanging that might give a forename/initial to at least some of these players.

Thank you.

Ardrossan Winton Rovers              Lindsay                 1922

Arniston Rangers                                 Mable                   1923

Ashfield                                                       Bain                      1912; Barrowman         1900; Campbell             1917; Dewar                  1905; Dysart                  1901

Banks o' Dee                                            Webster               1926

Bellshill Athletic                                    Lilly                       1905

Benburb                                                      Leslie                    1890; McDonald           1894

Blantyre Victoria                                  Beadle                  1920; Hutchison            1904; Paterson              1894; Robertson           1915

Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic                  Easton                  1898

Cambuslang Rangers                         Chalmers             1918-19; McIntosh             1921

Clydebank Juniors                               Lang                     1922

Darvel                                                          Allan                     1927; Findlay                 1927; Nisbet                  1906

Girvan                                                         Murray                 1920

Glasgow Perthshire                           Bennie                  1927; Houston               1899; Keith                     1926; Knox                     1927; McDonald           1900; McKay                  1921

Larkhall Thistle                                    Creechan             1924

Maryhill                                                    Johnstone           1921

Muirkirk                                                    Grant                    1915

Penicuik                                                    Hornal                  1922

Pollok                                                         Stenton                1922

Renfrew                                                    Brown                  1916-20; Croall                   1914

Shettleston                                             Jamieson             1924

Tranent                                                      Gray                      1912; Pow                      1922

Vale of Clyde                                         Cunningham       1899; Lavity                   1904; Linnen               1899; Livingstone    1894; Ritchie           1900; Smith               1904; Whyte                  1898

Yoker Athletic                                      Hillis                      1925; Kennedy               1927; Prentice               1891

[garrellburn 283]

Just been handed three photographs this afternoon dating from the early 1920's.

One is a team photo with officials of an SJFA select v Ayrshire  at Meadow Park, Irvine, dated 9th Feb 1924. All are named (no forename initial) with their clubs.

The second is of a Scottish Junior League  Football Association team but no date or player names. On the back is a list of 15 games with dates, opposition and venues. The opposition teams are variously, Scottish, English and both Senior clubs and selects.

The third has no details but shows a team photo with officials and a ball boy. Just guessing but it looks very like  the Kilsyth hills in the background.

 They came with a note saying they were found when the sender was clearing a relatives house. If these are of any interest to you, PM me and I will have them copied to send to you.

[bluedragon 62]

2 hours ago, garrellburn said:

Just been handed three photographs this afternoon dating from the early 1920's.

One is a team photo with officials of an SJFA select v Ayrshire  at Meadow Park, Irvine, dated 9th Feb 1924. All are named (no forename initial) with their clubs.

The second is of a Scottish Junior League  Football Association team but no date or player names. On the back is a list of 15 games with dates, opposition and venues. The opposition teams are variously, Scottish, English and both Senior clubs and selects.

The third has no details but shows a team photo with officials and a ball boy. Just guessing but it looks very like  the Kilsyth hills in the background.

 They came with a note saying they were found when the sender was clearing a relatives house. If these are of any interest to you, PM me and I will have them copied to send to you.

Many thanks Garrellburn. I have sent you a PM.

[bluedragon 62]

Thank you for all the help so far from various quarters on providing a forename(s)/ initial(s) for these players. Here is where we stand now with the additions shown in bold and underlined.

Ardrossan Winton Rovers – Lindsay (1922).

Arniston Rangers – Mable (1923).

Ashfield - Bain (1912);  D (possibly David) Barrowman (1900); Neil "Neilly" Campbell (1917); Dewar (1905); Dysart (1901).

I have seen the Ashfield centenary book written by Charlie McCulloch and published in 1986. It has an excellent summary of results, league tables, etc. but not so much on players. I understand another book was published in around 2007. Can anyone help please? 

Banks o' Dee - W Webster (1926).

Bellshill Athletic - Robert Lilly (1905).

Benburb - Leslie (1890); J McDonald (1894).

Blantyre Victoria - Beadle William AC  Beedie (1920); Hutchison (1904); J Paterson (1894); Robertson (1915).

Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic - Easton (1898).

Cambuslang Rangers – David Chalmers (1918-19); McIntosh (1921).

Clydebank Juniors - James Laing (1922).

Darvel – William Allan (1927); Findlay (1927); Nisbet (1906).

Girvan - Murray (1920).

Glasgow Perthshire – Bennie (1927); Houston (1899); Keith (1926); Knox (1927); McDonald  (1900); McKay (1921).

Larkhall Thistle - "Wee Dykie" Creechan (1924).

He played for New Stevenston United (1921/22), Dykehead (1922/23), Larkhall Thistle (1923/24),  St Roch's (1924/25),  Parkhead (1925/27) and Quarter United (1930/31).

Maryhill - Johnstone (1921).

Muirkirk  - Grant (1915).

Penicuik -  Charles Hornal (1922).

Pollok - Stenton (1922).

Renfrew - Brown (1916-20); Harry Croall (1914).

Shettleston – Jamieson (1924).

Tranent  - Bobby Gray (1912); William "Willie" Pow (1922).

Vale of Clyde - Cunningham (1899); William Laviety (1904); Linnen 1899; D Livingston(e) (1894); Charles Ritchie  (1900); Smith (1904); Whyte (1898),

Yoker Athletic – Hillis (1925); Kennedy (1927); Prentice (1891).

Edited March 1 by bluedragon

[left half 16]

On ‎03‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 20:46, bluedragon said:

A great photograph! Thanks for posting it.

This photograph was taken at Manor Park, Nuneaton on 8 April 1973. The old ground, now long gone, was one of the biggest non-league grounds in England. It is also the first game when a manager was appointed to the team.

The score was:

England 1(1) Scotland 5 (2)

The goalscorers were:

England scorer: Holmes - Scotland scorers: Bell, Pettigrew 2, Steele 2 (1 penalty)

Laurie Swan was originally selected in the starting XI but failed a fitness test immediately before the game and substitute Gibby Kerr took his place leaving just a goalkeeper on the bench. I am not sure if Laurie was fit enough to sit on the bench as a substitute to be used in a real emergency or whether he stripped just for the photograph and then took no further part in proceedings.

Here are the names of the fifteen people in the photograph. Can anyone else add more names to faces?

Starting XI:

John Young (Carluke Rovers)

Jim Scott (Cumbernauld United)

Sandy Calder (Mugiemoss)

John Crooks (Cumnock)

Jackie Mordue (Cambuslang Rangers)

Gibby Kerr (Lanark United)

John Cummings (Cambuslang Rangers)

Brian Bell (Kello Rovers)

Willie Pettigrew (East Kilbride Thistle) – sitting middle of front row with the ball at his feet

Billy Steele (Benburb) – sitting second from the right

Willie McCallum (Cambuslang Rangers)

Substitutes:

Davie Nicholls (Dundee Osborne) – goalkeeper

Laurie Swan (Newburgh) – standing far left

Manager:

Davie McLaggan (Cambuslang Rangers) – standing back row extreme right

Trainer/Physio:

Dunky Black (Irvine Meadow XI) - crouching front row extreme left

 

[bluedragon 62]

For those of you following this thread here is a quick update.

We have identified 354 matches that cover internationals, county matches, benefit games and trials played by the SJFA XI. The information on the international matches is largely complete although we are missing some goal scorers from early matches and a few other bits and pieces. The main gaps are in the non-international matches where we know there are many more and of those we know about some line-ups are unknown and other details are sketchy.

In all the matches we have it produces a list of 2,033 players and of those we do not have a forename(s) or even a first initial for 102 .

We have had great help from posters here in the past and so I thought I would try again with the up-to-date list of these 102 players. As ever, any help will be very much appreciated.

I have divided the players into two lists – Present clubs and Defunct clubs. The lists are in alphabetical order of club and the year after each player’s name is the year they played for the SJFA XI.

A quick word on the definition of “Present” and “Defunct”.  I have taken this quite literally. So Girvan [1] is not today’s Girvan club that dates from 1944. Similarly Benburb [1] is an earlier club with the same name as today’s club. Although Mugiemoss was one of the two clubs that amalgamated to form Dyce FC I have treated it as defunct. Any mistakes in the definitions will be mine so do let me know.

PRESENT CLUBS

Arniston Rangers [2] - Mable  (1923)

Ashfield - Bain  (1912); Dewar  (1905); Dysart  (1901)

Blantyre Victoria - Hutchison  (1904); Robertson  (1915)

Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic - Easton  (1898)

Cambuslang Rangers [2] - McIntosh  (1921)

Darvel - Findlay  (1927); Nisbet  (1906)

Glasgow Perthshire - Bennie  (1927); Houston  (1899); Keith  (1926); Knox  (1927); McDonald  (1900); McKay  (1921)

Kilsyth Rangers [2] - Brown  (1922)

Maryhill - Johnstone  (1921)

Muirkirk - Grant  (1915)

Renfrew - Brown  (1916 & 1920)

Saltcoats Victoria (2) - Struthers  (1965)

Shettleston - Jamieson  (1924)

Vale of Clyde - Cunningham  (1899); Linnen  (1899); Smith  (1904); Whyte  (1898); Hillis  (1925)

Yoker Athletic - Kennedy  (1927); Prentice  (1891)

DEFUNCT CLUBS

Airdrieonians 'A' - McKinlay  (1896)

Argyll (Aberdeen) - Cotton  (1926)

Benburb [1] - Leslie  (1890)

Blantyre Celtic - Hannigan  (1924); Stewart  (1920)

Burnbank Athletic [1] - Wallace  (1897)

Burnbank Athletic [2] - Hunter  (1927); Thomson  (1920)

Cadzow Oak - McNair  (1901)

Cadzow St Anne's - McNulty  (1926)

Cambuslang Hibernian - McCue  (1896)

Captain Colt's Rovers - Boag  (1896)

Coalburn - Kerr  (1929)

Corporation Cleansing Department - Wilson  (1928)

Crown Athletic [1] - McCulloch  (1893); Young  (1895)

Dalry Primrose - McDonald  (1898)

Dalziel Rovers - Irvine  (1907); Johnston  (1901)

Denny Athletic - Buist  (1905)

Douglas Water Thistle - Henderson  (1913)

Drongan - Morrison  (1920)

Dumbarton Albion - Cairney  (1898)

Dunaskin Lads - Logan  (1921)

Dundee Arnot - Graham  (1908)

Dundee Harp - Donald  (1922)

Dunrobin Athletic - Taylor  (1890)

Duntocher Hibernian [1] - Grieve  (1904); Smith  (1899)

Earnock Rovers [2]  - Miller  (1909)

Edinburgh Renton [1] - Grant  (1897); Winton  (1899)

Edinburgh Rosebery - Hay  (1922); Short  (1922)

Errol - Scott  (1963)

Girvan (1) - Murray  (1920)

Grange Rovers - McIntosh  (1931); McNair  (1905)

Hamilton West End Rangers - Gray  (1889 & 1890); Rowan  (1889); Sneddon  (1890)

Harthill Athletic [1] - Halliday  (1897)

Kelburne - Murray  (1896)

Lenzie [2] - Grey  (1897)

Maryhill Myrtle - Shearer  (1893)

Milngavie - Kyle  (1890); Ross  (1891)

Moore Park - Hosie  (1897)

Mossend Celtic - McNamee  (1893)

Mugiemoss - Tough  (1911)

Muirkirk Ex-Service Athletic - Welsh  (1920)

Neilston Victoria - Gowans  (1906)

Nithsdale Wanderers - Hastings  (1963)

Old Kilpatrick [3] - Stewart  (1922)

Parkhead - Murray  (1898); Nicol  (1897)

Possilpark - McFarlane  (1889)

Renfrew Victoria - Campbell  (1904); Wylie  (1895)

Shotts United - Timmins  (1917)

St Johnstone YMCA - Paterson  (1926)

St Ninian's Thistle - Clark  (1908)

Stevenston Thistle - McMaster  (1917)

Stirling Emmet [2] - Walls  (1923)

Strathclyde [2] - Brown  (1903); Crum  (1898); Harley  (1900); Leslie  (1900); Martin  (1913); McMurray  (1927); Montgomery  (1897)

Thornliebank Juniors - Steveley  (1898)

Woodburn - Gibson  (1889)

Edited March 10 by bluedragon

[naetshirt 4]

For those of you following this thread here is a quick update.
We have identified 354 matches that cover internationals, county matches, benefit games and trials played by the SJFA XI. The information on the international matches is largely complete although we are missing some goal scorers from early matches and a few other bits and pieces. The main gaps are in the non-international matches where we know there are many more and of those we know about some line-ups are unknown and other details are sketchy.
In all the matches we have it produces a list of 2,033 players and of those we do not have a forename(s) or even a first initial for 102 .
We have had great help from posters here in the past and so I thought I would try again with the up-to-date list of these 102 players. As ever, any help will be very much appreciated.
I have divided the players into two lists – Present clubs and Defunct clubs. The lists are in alphabetical order of club and the year after each player’s name is the year they played for the SJFA XI.
A quick word on the definition of “Present” and “Defunct”.  I have taken this quite literally. So Girvan [1] is not today’s Girvan club that dates from 1944. Similarly Benburb [1] is an earlier club with the same name as today’s club. Although Mugiemoss was one of the two clubs that amalgamated to form Dyce FC I have treated it as defunct. Any mistakes in the definitions will be mine so do let me know.
PRESENT CLUBS
Arniston Rangers [2] - Mable  (1923)
Ashfield - Bain  (1912); Dewar  (1905); Dysart  (1901)
Blantyre Victoria - Hutchison  (1904); Robertson  (1915)
Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic - Easton  (1898)
Cambuslang Rangers [2] - McIntosh  (1921)
Darvel - Findlay  (1927); Nisbet  (1906)
Glasgow Perthshire - Bennie  (1927); Houston  (1899); Keith  (1926); Knox  (1927); McDonald  (1900); McKay  (1921)
Kilsyth Rangers [2] - Brown  (1922)
Maryhill - Johnstone  (1921)
Muirkirk - Grant  (1915)
Renfrew - Brown  (1916 & 1920)
Saltcoats Victoria (2) - Struthers  (1965)
Shettleston - Jamieson  (1924)
Vale of Clyde - Cunningham  (1899); Linnen  (1899); Smith  (1904); Whyte  (1898); Hillis  (1925)
Yoker Athletic - Kennedy  (1927); Prentice  (1891)
DEFUNCT CLUBS
Airdrieonians 'A' - McKinlay  (1896)
Argyll (Aberdeen) - Cotton  (1926)
Benburb [1] - Leslie  (1890)
Blantyre Celtic - Hannigan  (1924); Stewart  (1920)
Burnbank Athletic [1] - Wallace  (1897)
Burnbank Athletic [2] - Hunter  (1927); Thomson  (1920)
Cadzow Oak - McNair  (1901)
Cadzow St Anne's - McNulty  (1926)
Cambuslang Hibernian - McCue  (1896)
Captain Colt's Rovers - Boag  (1896)
Coalburn - Kerr  (1929)
Corporation Cleansing Department - Wilson  (1928)
Crown Athletic [1] - McCulloch  (1893); Young  (1895)
Dalry Primrose - McDonald  (1898)
Dalziel Rovers - Irvine  (1907); Johnston  (1901)
Denny Athletic - Buist  (1905)
Douglas Water Thistle - Henderson  (1913)
Drongan - Morrison  (1920)
Dumbarton Albion - Cairney  (1898)
Dunaskin Lads - Logan  (1921)
Dundee Arnot - Graham  (1908)
Dundee Harp - Donald  (1922)
Dunrobin Athletic - Taylor  (1890)
Duntocher Hibernian [1] - Grieve  (1904); Smith  (1899)
Earnock Rovers [2]  - Miller  (1909)
Edinburgh Renton [1] - Grant  (1897); Winton  (1899)
Edinburgh Rosebery - Hay  (1922); Short  (1922)
Errol - Scott  (1963)
Girvan (1) - Murray  (1920)
Grange Rovers - McIntosh  (1931); McNair  (1905)
Hamilton West End Rangers - Gray  (1889 & 1890); Rowan  (1889); Sneddon  (1890)
Harthill Athletic [1] - Halliday  (1897)
Kelburne - Murray  (1896)
Lenzie [2] - Grey  (1897)
Maryhill Myrtle - Shearer  (1893)
Milngavie - Kyle  (1890); Ross  (1891)
Moore Park - Hosie  (1897)
Mossend Celtic - McNamee  (1893)
Mugiemoss - Tough  (1911)
Muirkirk Ex-Service Athletic - Welsh  (1920)
Neilston Victoria - Gowans  (1906)
Nithsdale Wanderers - Hastings  (1963)
Old Kilpatrick [3] - Stewart  (1922)
Parkhead - Murray  (1898); Nicol  (1897)
Possilpark - McFarlane  (1889)
Renfrew Victoria - Campbell  (1904); Wylie  (1895)
Shotts United - Timmins  (1917)
St Johnstone YMCA - Paterson  (1926)
St Ninian's Thistle - Clark  (1908)
Stevenston Thistle - McMaster  (1917)
Stirling Emmet [2] - Walls  (1923)
Strathclyde [2] - Brown  (1903); Crum  (1898); Harley  (1900); Leslie  (1900); Martin  (1913); McMurray  (1927); Montgomery  (1897)
Thornliebank Juniors - Steveley  (1898)
Woodburn - Gibson  (1889)

Very interesting reading and great to see someone with such a passion for the Junior game. Can anyone tell me if there are any International trials or matches planned for 2018? Something I personally would like to attend

[bluedragon 62]

On 21/03/2018 at 10:31, naetshirt said:

Very interesting reading and great to see someone with such a passion for the Junior game. Can anyone tell me if there are any International trials or matches planned for 2018? Something I personally would like to attend

Thanks. It has been very interesting gathering all the details. We have come across some interesting characters and stories along the way! We currently have 361 matches. We are still trying to find forenames for around 100 players but they are all from 1931 and earlier and when the newspapers just used surnames.

I think you will have a wait to see the Junior Scotland team play again. The Quadrangular tournament, last held in October 2017, is not an annual event.  

Going back to “interesting characters and stories” and Dunipace…….

We have found another Westwater from Dunipace from 1908 to add to the others mentioned earlier on in the thread. The last two are related but what about the first two? Do we have four generations of the same family?

John Westwater (Dunipace) played for SJFA XI against Aberdeenshire JFA in 1908.

George Westwater (Dunipace) capped three times in 1924

Willie Westwater (Dunipace) capped in 1952 and went on to play for Kilsyth Rangers and won the Junior Cup with them.

Alan Westwater, son of Willie, was capped for Australia in the late 1960’s and played in all three matches against Scotland in the 1967 Scotland World Tour.

Edited March 23 by bluedragon

[bluedragon 62]

6 hours ago, bluedragon said:

Thanks. It has been very interesting gathering all the details. We have come across some interesting characters and stories along the way! We currently have 361 matches. We are still trying to find forenames for around 100 players but they are all from 1931 and earlier and when the newspapers just used surnames.

I think you will have a wait to see the Junior Scotland team play again. The Quadrangular tournament, last held in October 2017, is not an annual event.  

Going back to “interesting characters and stories” and Dunipace…….

We have found another Westwater from Dunipace from 1908 to add to the others mentioned earlier on in the thread. The last two are related but what about the first two? Do we have four generations of the same family?

John Westwater (Dunipace) played for SJFA XI against Aberdeenshire JFA in 1908.

George Westwater (Dunipace) capped three times in 1924

Willie Westwater (Dunipace) capped in 1952 and went on to play for Kilsyth Rangers and won the Junior Cup with them.

Alan Westwater, son of Willie, was capped for Australia in the late 1960’s and played in all three matches against Scotland in the 1967 Scotland World Tour.

I have just been told of two more Westwaters at Dunipace.

In 1912 John Westwater was joined by his brother William in the first team and another brother, Peter, in the A team.

[BenBo 0]

When’s the next set of fixtures?

[bluedragon 62]

As a few more matches emerge we have only one missing forename from 1931 and after. Can anyone help with the forename of a former Glenafton Athletic full back with the surname Jaap?

He was at Glenafton in 1961. I do not think he played Senior football.  There was a Calum Jaap who played in the 1970’s and very early 1980’s. He was a centre half, had a brief spell with Queen’s Park but mostly played in the Juniors (including Kilwinning Rangers, Ardrossan Winton Rangers, Troon & Irvine Victoria). He may be a relation given the uncommon surname.

Thank you.

[bluedragon 62]

3 hours ago, bluedragon said:

As a few more matches emerge we have only one missing forename from 1931 and after. Can anyone help with the forename of a former Glenafton Athletic full back with the surname Jaap?

He was at Glenafton in 1961. I do not think he played Senior football.  There was a Calum Jaap who played in the 1970’s and very early 1980’s. He was a centre half, had a brief spell with Queen’s Park but mostly played in the Juniors (including Kilwinning Rangers, Ardrossan Winton Rangers, Troon & Irvine Victoria). He may be a relation given the uncommon surname.

Thank you.

Problem solved! 

A friend has found that “Jaap” is actually the John L Japp who also played against Northern Ireland in 1961 before going on to have a season at Third Lanark (1961/62) and Hamilton Academical (1962/63).

For those interested we hope to make another, updated version of the database available soon. We are doing some last checks at present. For those who have helped so far there are still gaps that need to be filled! As always, we would also be very interested if anyone spots any errors or has additional information.

We have 2,070 players named but are still looking for some line-ups and goalscorers in the 363 matches we have listed.