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Players capped at Junior and Senior level


bluedragon

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There is an earlier thread on Junior players capped as amateur internationals. That discussion moved on to players capped at Junior and Senior level and I thought it was better to start another thread as I am sure others who may not have followed the amateur thread will be able to add to the list of names. It would be great to get other contributions or possibilities as we can check them out.

Here is the current list of players who won Junior and Full caps

Matt Armstrong (Port Glasgow and Aberdeen) ? Junior caps & 3 Full caps

Alex Bennett (Rutherglen Glencairn and Celtic/Rangers) 3 (+1 to be confirmed) & 11

John Brown (Shawfield and Clyde) 2 & 1

Jimmy Brownlie (Blantyre Victoria and Third Lanark) 1 & 16

Donald Colman (Maryhill and Aberdeen) ? & 4

Pat Crerand (Duntocher Hibs and Celtic/Manchester United) 3 & 16

Andy Cunningham (Newmilns and Rangers ) 1 & 12

Kenny Dalglish (Cumbernauld United & Celtic/Liverpool) 1 & 102

Dixie Deans (Neilston Juniors and Celtic) 1 & 2

Bobby Dougan (Shawfield and Heart of Midlothian) 3 & 1

Jimmy Gordon (Renfrew Victoria and Rangers) 2 & 10

Dougie Gray (Mugiemoss and Rangers) 2 & 10

Bobby Hogg (Royal Albert and Celtic) 3 & 1

Jimmy Johnstone (Blantyre Celtic and Celtic) 1 & 23

James Lawrence (Glasgow Perthshire and Newcastle United) 1 & 1

Tommy Low (Parkhead and Rangers) ? & 1

Alec Scott (Bo'ness United and Rangers/Everton) 3 & 16

Dave Mackay (Newtongrange Star and Heart of Midlothian/Tottenham Hotspur) 1 & 22

Peter Nellies (Douglas Water Thistle and Heart of Midlothian) 1 & 2

Willie Pettigrew (East Kilbride Thistle and Motherwell) 2 & 5

James Raeside (Parkhead and Third Lanark) 1 & 1

Harry Rennie (Greenock Volunteers and Heart of Midlothian/Hibernian) 1 & 13

Scot Symon (Dundee Violet and Rangers) 1 & 1

Bobby Walker (Dalry Primrose and Heart of Midlothian) 1 & 29

Benny Yorston (Mugiemoss and Aberdeen) 1 & 1

A few points:

1) the clubs listed are only those where they won their caps.

2) The Junior caps number includes matches played for the SJFA XI against non-international opposition, i.e. England. Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

3) Alex Bennett – the Junior records have him listed playing against Ireland and England in 1902 & 1903, i.e. 4 games but that is being checked.

4) Matt Armstrong, Donald Colman, Tommy Low – we know from other sources that they won  Junior caps but a first look at the Junior records do not have these players listed. However, we know these records are not necessarily complete and so these players may have been late call ups for injuries, not spelt correctly in the newspapers, etc, etc. I am concentrating on these players first.

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Thanks. I have been back to check but I cannot find John White. I also had a quick check on the Bonnyrigg Rose website and a biography written by his son but there is no mention. If anyone knows more please do let me know.

You raise a good issue – some of the names that are “missing” are as interesting as the ones selected! Some players you might have expected to see, especially in the early days, were voted out in the elections process for each position.  In 1932 the newspapers wrote about the election for the match against Ireland and said:  Walker led until the last lap, when Donnelly just breasted the tape to win the position”. “Walker” was 16 years old Tommy Walker of Linlithgow Rose (later of Heart of Midlothian, Chelsea and Scotland) who went on to win his first Senior International Cap at just 19 years of age despite missing Junior selection.

Since my first post I have received help on the three players where I did not have the number of Junior caps won. Here they are:

Matt Armstrong (Port Glasgow and Aberdeen) 1 Junior cap & 3 Full caps

Donald Colman (Maryhill and Aberdeen) 2 (+1 to be confirmed) & 4

Tommy Low (Parkhead and Rangers) 1 & 1

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Thanks. I have Gordon Greer winning three Scotland B caps rather than full international caps between 1905 and 1907.  I am still trying to find him as a Junior Internationalist. The first Junior cap playing for a Port Glasgow club in the list I have was a player called H Bolton in 1902. However, these records are not 100% complete.

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4 hours ago, paul-r-cfc said:


106 years between that and his first senior cap. Quite an achievement.....

Oops! I should have checked that before pressing “send”! To add insult to injury I have missed off Gordon’s full caps. My apologies. I am still trying to find any SJFA XI games he may have played.

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4 hours ago, Standalone said:

Jim Scott  Bo'ness United.

Thanks for that which highlights an error.

We have three entries for Scott (Bo’ness United) playing Junior Internationals in 1953, 1955 and 1959 and all playing on the right wing.

The 1953 game might be Alex who signed by Rangers in July 1953 and so may have been farmed back out to Bo’ness and so still able to play for Junior Scotland 5 months later in December 1953.

The 1959 game must be Jim Scott who joined Hibernian in October 1958 and may have been farmed back out to Bo’ness and able to play for Junior Scotland 3 months later in January 1959.

Who was the Scott who played in 1955? It cannot be Alex who was an established Senior at that time and Jim was only 14 years of age.

Can you help?

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12 hours ago, bluedragon said:

Thanks for that which highlights an error.

We have three entries for Scott (Bo’ness United) playing Junior Internationals in 1953, 1955 and 1959 and all playing on the right wing.

The 1953 game might be Alex who signed by Rangers in July 1953 and so may have been farmed back out to Bo’ness and so still able to play for Junior Scotland 5 months later in December 1953.

The 1959 game must be Jim Scott who joined Hibernian in October 1958 and may have been farmed back out to Bo’ness and able to play for Junior Scotland 3 months later in January 1959.

Who was the Scott who played in 1955? It cannot be Alex who was an established Senior at that time and Jim was only 14 years of age.

Can you help?

 1953 & 55 was Alex, 1959 was Jim. Both signed for their senior clubs while playing for Bo'ness on what was known as a Provisional Form.

 An agreement was made between the clubs to leave the player with their junior club to gain more experience. This generally took the shape of leaving a player until the end of a season or leaving when the junior club lost interest in the Scottish Junior Cup.

 The latter was the case with Alex who played with Bo'ness in a Scottish 6th round tie on the Saturday, was immediately called up and played with Rangers on the following Wednesday night. This happened in March 1955,by the end of that season he was as you say an established senior.

 Cheers.

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59 minutes ago, Standalone said:

 1953 & 55 was Alex, 1959 was Jim. Both signed for their senior clubs while playing for Bo'ness on what was known as a Provisional Form.

 An agreement was made between the clubs to leave the player with their junior club to gain more experience. This generally took the shape of leaving a player until the end of a season or leaving when the junior club lost interest in the Scottish Junior Cup.

 The latter was the case with Alex who played with Bo'ness in a Scottish 6th round tie on the Saturday, was immediately called up and played with Rangers on the following Wednesday night. This happened in March 1955,by the end of that season he was as you say an established senior.

 Cheers.

Thank you for clarifying that. I have also been advised to add Paul Wilson to the list who won his Senior cap with Celtic (1975) before his Junior cap (1980) with Blantyre Celtic. Another player already on the list but worth a mention is Harry Rennie. He was capped at half back as a Junior. When he moved to the Seniors he was named as a reserve for the full Scotland team again as a half back. At the end of the 1896/97 season he decided he would become a goalkeeper and won all his Full caps between the sticks!

Here is the up-to-date list including these latest two amendments.

Matt Armstrong (Port Glasgow and Aberdeen) 1 Junior cap & 3 Full caps

Alex Bennett (Rutherglen Glencairn and Celtic/Rangers) 3 (+1 to be confirmed) & 11

John Brown (Shawfield and Clyde) 2 & 1

Jimmy Brownlie (Blantyre Victoria and Third Lanark) 1 & 16

Donald Colman (Maryhill and Aberdeen) 2 (+1 to be confirmed) & 4

Pat Crerand (Duntocher Hibs and Celtic/Manchester United) 3 & 16

Andy Cunningham (Newmilns and Rangers ) 1 & 12

Kenny Dalglish (Cumbernauld United & Celtic/Liverpool) 1 & 102

Dixie Deans (Neilston Juniors and Celtic) 1 & 2

Bobby Dougan (Shawfield and Heart of Midlothian) 3 & 1

Jimmy Gordon (Renfrew Victoria and Rangers) 2 & 10

Dougie Gray (Mugiemoss and Rangers) 2 & 10

Bobby Hogg (Royal Albert and Celtic) 3 & 1

Jimmy Johnstone (Blantyre Celtic and Celtic) 1 & 23

James Lawrence (Glasgow Perthshire and Newcastle United) 1 & 1

Tommy Low (Parkhead and Rangers) 1 & 1

Alec Scott (Bo'ness United and Rangers/Everton) 2 & 16

Jim Scott (Bo’ness United and Hibernian) 1 & 1

Dave Mackay (Newtongrange Star and Heart of Midlothian/Tottenham Hotspur) 1 & 22

Peter Nellies (Douglas Water Thistle and Heart of Midlothian) 1 & 2

Willie Pettigrew (East Kilbride Thistle and Motherwell) 2 & 5

James Raeside (Parkhead and Third Lanark) 1 & 1

Harry Rennie (Greenock Volunteers and Heart of Midlothian/Hibernian) 1 & 13

Scot Symon (Dundee Violet and Rangers) 1 & 1

Bobby Walker (Dalry Primrose and Heart of Midlothian) 1 & 29

Paul Wilson (Blantyre Celtic and Celtic) 1 & 1

Benny Yorston (Mugiemoss and Aberdeen) 1 & 1

 

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56 minutes ago, holmparkheroes said:

Ian Wallace, Yoker and Coventry ? & 3

Thank you for that. I have found him being capped once on 7 April 1974 versus England at Glenrothes. Scotland won 4:1 with Ian scoring one of the goals. He looks like another player who was farmed out. I have him signing for Dumbarton on 29 September 1973 and made his first debut just short of a year later on 10 August 1974. He has been added to the list:

Ian Wallace (Yoker Athletic and Coventry City) 1 & 3

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15 hours ago, Sir Kenneth of Eadie said:

..Another Yoker player hit the dizzy heights. Sam English.

 

14 hours ago, holmparkheroes said:

English wasn't Scottish, he was Irish ( apologies for leaving the Welsh out )

Thanks to you both for mentioning Sam English. I'll mention the Welsh later on!

Alongside listing the Junior/Full internationals I am also trying to establish when the SJFA XI stopped being a team selected from Scottish-born players at Junior clubs to being open to all players at Junior clubs.

Sam English is a good example.

His form at Yoker in the early 1930’s that attracted the attention of Aberdeen and Arsenal, as well as Rangers, meant that he was one of the top Junior players of the day. However, I cannot find him being mentioned in the Junior international selection election process or playing in any trial matches. This suggests that Yoker did not put his name forward for selection as he was ineligible. So did the SJFA restrict the Junior Scots to Scottish-born players at that time?

The only clue I have is that in 1930 the North Wales Coast FA (it provided the “Wales” team that played Scotland) decided to only select Welsh-born players. The area the association covered meant that many English and Irish players played for North Wales clubs. At the same time there was an influx of Scottish Senior players who were on the Open to Transfer List at their Scottish League club and were effectively frozen out of Scottish football. This status meant that they were also prevented from playing for Football League clubs in England. However, these players were able to find professional engagements in North Wales. After the Second World War the Welsh-born qualification was lifted but the SJFA would not let them select Scots.

I have not set out (yet!) to find the first non-Scot to play for Junior Scotland but I did come across Sheffield-born Steve Hancock (Newtongrange Star) playing in 1971.

As ever, if any one can shed any light on this it would be very much appreciated.

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21 hours ago, Standalone said:

 The latter was the case with Alex who played with Bo'ness in a Scottish 6th round tie on the Saturday, was immediately called up and played with Rangers on the following Wednesday night. This happened in March 1955,by the end of that season he was as you say an established senior.

 Cheers.

I seem to recall that he scored a hat trick on his debut, it was against Falkirk I think.

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53 minutes ago, garrellburn said:

I seem to recall that he scored a hat trick on his debut, it was against Falkirk I think.

Correct. Score was 4-1 to Rangers. Another interesting fact was that the other goal was scored by another former Bo'ness player,Willie Gardiner and both were

Falkirk Bairns

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7 minutes ago, Standalone said:

Correct. Score was 4-1 to Rangers. Another interesting fact was that the other goal was scored by another former Bo'ness player,Willie Gardiner and both were

Falkirk Bairns

Great memories! I assume Willie Gardiner is the “Gardiner (Bo’ness United)” I have listed who won three Junior caps in 1951 scoring three goals?

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