The Aberdeen Mega-Hyper New Stadium Thread

[Dunty]

On 08/12/2017 at 23:15, scoobles said:

There may be benefits to the club but that's debatable.
The city centre suffers as travelling fans won't enter it due to location.
City based fans will still be stuck in buses whilst away fans are halfway to Dundee.
Midweek games will see lower crowds and winter/spring games will probably drop.
AECC would have been ideal but
..

Loirston would have been ideal. It's just as far from the city centre as AECC. Yes we'd need shuttle buses but they'd be much shorter journeys, and there was always the possibility of re-opening Cove train station.

Club say in their latest update in the application they don't have the room at Loirston anymore. From looking at it I think they can still build a stadium, but could only manage a few hundred parking spaces, and it would cost an extra £11m than having everything on one site in Kingsford on account the council don't appear to want to offer any help whatsoever. (AECC site another that could work but council aren't prepared to hand it over without a huge fee).

[HibsFan]

Dunty it's time to face facts and the facts are that Milne is an utter shyster just like Robinson was at Hearts. He's had decades to avoid this situation and hasn't because he cares about money and nothing else. The Kingsford plan is a joke and it's pretty funny that only a minority of Aberdeen fans can see this fact.

[Dunty]

6 minutes ago, HibsFan said:

Dunty it's time to face facts and the facts are that Milne is an utter shyster just like Robinson was at Hearts. He's had decades to avoid this situation and hasn't because he cares about money and nothing else. The Kingsford plan is a joke and it's pretty funny that only a minority of Aberdeen fans can see this fact.

What's your solution?

If it's "just rebuild Pittodrie" then see above posts.

[EdTheDuck]

10 minutes ago, Dunty said:

Loirston would have been ideal. It's just as far from the city centre as AECC. Yes we'd need shuttle buses but they'd be much shorter journeys, and there was always the possibility of re-opening Cove train station.

Club say in their latest update in the application they don't have the room at Loirston anymore. From looking at it I think they can still build a stadium, but could only manage a few hundred parking spaces, and it would cost an extra £11m than having everything on one site in Kingsford on account the council don't appear to want to offer any help whatsoever. (AECC site another that could work but council aren't prepared to hand it over without a huge fee).

We get it.

If we don't build at Kingsford then it's Abergeddon, the end of football for the North East as we know it.

I would be more inclined to buy into Kingsford if we hadn't heard all these arguments before. f**k me, not so long ago if we didn't build at Loirston it was going to be part-time football and a capacity similar to Cliftonhill. It was the only option, the only option!!!

Maybe Milne's cries of all-of-nothing in the past have made me cynical about his proclamations. If The Rangers have to start over in Div 3 it will be a disaster for Scottish football. If we don't implement the 10 team league it will be a disaster for Scottish football. If we don't implement the 12-12-18 set-up it will be a disaster for Scottish football. If we don't move to Kingsford it will be a disaster for AFC.

I don't buy it.  Simple as that.  There is something amiss, we're not getting the whole story or the story we are getting is bent.

[Dunty]

8 minutes ago, EdTheDuck said:

We get it.

If we don't build at Kingsford then it's Abergeddon, the end of football for the North East as we know it.

I would be more inclined to buy into Kingsford if we hadn't heard all these arguments before. f**k me, not so long ago if we didn't build at Loirston it was going to be part-time football and a capacity similar to Cliftonhill. It was the only option, the only option!!!

Maybe Milne's cries of all-of-nothing in the past have made me cynical about his proclamations. If The Rangers have to start over in Div 3 it will be a disaster for Scottish football. If we don't implement the 10 team league it will be a disaster for Scottish football. If we don't implement the 12-12-18 set-up it will be a disaster for Scottish football. If we don't move to Kingsford it will be a disaster for AFC.

I don't buy it.  Simple as that.  There is something amiss, we're not getting the whole story or the story we are getting is bent.

It's easy to say you don't believe something and suggest Milne is at it. But I didn't see a single alternative in your post.

[EdTheDuck]

10 minutes ago, Dunty said:

It's easy to say you don't believe something and suggest Milne is at it. But I didn't see a single alternative in your post.

I have stated that I want to stay at Pittodrie and I do not buy your regurgitation of the Official Line that it is impossible.

What is wrong with a 17,000 - 18,000 capacity? You say we would lose money from those (few) occasions we get higher attendances than that.

However, I counter with we will not always be Best of The Rest. In the bad seasons to come, at Pittodrie, even the very worst seasons, we know we will still average around 9,500 because we did so under McGhee and others. Relocate to the sticks and we'll be lucky to average 9,500 in a mediocre season, never mind a truly shite season.

[Dunty]

14 minutes ago, EdTheDuck said:

I have stated that I want to stay at Pittodrie and I do not buy your regurgitation of the Official Line that it is impossible.

You don't buy it, but then you don't seem to have any idea how it would be possible either.

14 minutes ago, EdTheDuck said:

What is wrong with a 17,000 - 18,000 capacity? You say we would lose money from those (few) occasions we get higher attendances than that.

You want us to spend millions on a smaller stadium, reducing our capability of paying that debt off.

That makes no financial sense at all. 

14 minutes ago, EdTheDuck said:

However, I counter with we will not always be Best of The Rest. In the bad seasons to come, at Pittodrie, even the very worst seasons, we know we will still average around 9,500 because we did so under McGhee and others. Relocate to the sticks and we'll be lucky to average 9,500 in a mediocre season, never mind a truly shite season.

That isn't a counter argument at all. If you were saying that building a smaller stadium would save us money, then that would be a counter argument. I wouldn't agree with it but I could at least see where you're coming from.

But putting ourselves into unmanageable debt isn't a counter argument, it's just more stupidity.

[EdTheDuck]

22 minutes ago, Dunty said:

You don't buy it, but then you don't seem to have any idea how it would be possible either.

You want us to spend millions on a smaller stadium, reducing our capability of paying that debt off.

That makes no financial sense at all. 

That isn't a counter argument at all. If you were saying that building a smaller stadium would save us money, then that would be a counter argument. I wouldn't agree with it but I could at least see where you're coming from.

But putting ourselves into unmanageable debt isn't a counter argument, it's just more stupidity.

..aaaand there we have it. Anyone with a different POV is stupid, we just don't understand because we're thick.

The debt for Kingsford has reduced from at least £20M to £7M according to you despite the cost of the build rising from $40M to £50M but we're stupid? Maybe we have found that elusive Magic Money Tree? You demand answers but fill your posts with unashamed "Party Doctrine" based on the decrees of The Great Leader and nothing else?

If I wasn't a gentleman I would probably use swear words at you but I won't

 

[HibsFan]

4 hours ago, Dunty said:

What's your solution?

If it's "just rebuild Pittodrie" then see above posts.

My solution would be to wait things out, as always in football people come and go, but stadiums can be there for hundreds of years. Milne is an utter fraud and, without being too morbid, if you wait for his death, I'm sure you'll see that Pittodrie is perfectly viable as a football ground once again.

[fatshaft]

18 hours ago, Aberdeen Cowden said:

Of course it’s a punt. Planning permission already refused (twice) for the site. It’s of little value  so any losses will be minimal.

How much would the site be worth if it were sold with outline planning permission?

It's not worth anything, it's not outline planning permission, a price is agreed subject to planning already, the only planning that is being sought is for the stadium and and training grounds.

 

Again, what is this "punt"? What is the "developer" which you're now saying is AFC, going to cash in here?  They're not in it to make money, they're in it to build a new stadium. The Piries will cash in on a piece of land with no value at all, but the price isn't changing based on planning, if planning fails they will have somehwere for their coos again but nae sillar

 

 

EDIT: Do you mean that AFC have already bought the land for a small sum in the expectation it will be worth more with planning permission? I think that's what you're trying to say, if so then you are incorrect as per above. The land won't be used for anything else building wise, hence the Piries are crossing their fingers that the planning goes through so that AFC will buy the land at the agreed price, no planning, no sale. 

Edited December 10, 2017 by fatshaft

[HibeeJibee]

5 hours ago, EdTheDuck said:

We get it.

If we don't build at Kingsford then it's Abergeddon, the end of football for the North East as we know it.

I would be more inclined to buy into Kingsford if we hadn't heard all these arguments before. f**k me, not so long ago if we didn't build at Loirston it was going to be part-time football and a capacity similar to Cliftonhill. It was the only option, the only option!!!

Maybe Milne's cries of all-of-nothing in the past have made me cynical about his proclamations. If The Rangers have to start over in Div 3 it will be a disaster for Scottish football. If we don't implement the 10 team league it will be a disaster for Scottish football. If we don't implement the 12-12-18 set-up it will be a disaster for Scottish football. If we don't move to Kingsford it will be a disaster for AFC.

I don't buy it.  Simple as that.  There is something amiss, we're not getting the whole story or the story we are getting is bent.

Did he not recently come out with some very precise figure on what crowds would drop to if you don't relocate, then get called out, it becoming apparent he'd really just made it up for effect? I can't remember what it was but lets say 7,600 - precise enough to imply capacity restrictions - but it was actually a "prediction" assuming worse players, tumbling down league, no EL, etc.?

EDIT:  Similarly the stuff about having to play European games in Glasgow. Obviously prospect that stirs footballing and indeed north-east pride and emotions, but why would Pittodrie become unusable, and if so why not Tannadice or Tynecastle/ER?

Edited December 10, 2017 by HibeeJibee

[DA Baracus]

Just fill in Rubislaw and use that

[strichener]

6 hours ago, EdTheDuck said:

I have stated that I want to stay at Pittodrie and I do not buy your regurgitation of the Official Line that it is impossible.

What is wrong with a 17,000 - 18,000 capacity? You say we would lose money from those (few) occasions we get higher attendances than that.

However, I counter with we will not always be Best of The Rest. In the bad seasons to come, at Pittodrie, even the very worst seasons, we know we will still average around 9,500 because we did so under McGhee and others. Relocate to the sticks and we'll be lucky to average 9,500 in a mediocre season, never mind a truly shite season.

*Start sarcasm*

Well that is quite obviously nonsense, the £8.5m economic case is based around increasing the attendance to 13,500 at Kingston and staying put will see you down to 8,500.  An extra 5000 fans to see a shiny new stadium.

*End Sarcasm*

 

[strichener]

On 12/9/2017 at 15:59, fatshaft said:

It's not the norm because historically clubs didn't have fancy modern training facilities, but now that they do most havn't moved stadium because they were either able to redevelop on site or didn't need a new stadium at all.

Aberdeen have the chance here to get everything in one location which obviously make much better logistical sense, plus will save on costs by not doubling up on facilities therein.

 

As for redeveloping Pittodrie, there's some great work done by Tom-Widdows on Donstalk showing why a 12k capacity that the club keep referencing seems totally legit. 

 

Aberdeen can redevelop on site.  Aberdeen will not put any effort into showing that Pittodrie can be re-developed simply because they don't want this as a solution.  Their latest submissions still do not show that they have exhausted other possibilities.

The idea that the current site could only house a 12k stadium is almost as ludicrous as stating that Kingsford is the only option.

[strichener]

17 hours ago, Dunty said:

Yeh I agree the transport plan is shite, but only because like you say they're relying on just 100 buses and all coming the same busy route.

I suspect the club know fine well the buses won't be full to capacity and therefore it's pointless getting more. We all know, and the club know, fans will go by car and park in Westhill. Because why would you take the bus to the city centre then get another bus home when the car will do it in a quarter of the time?

Long term the only solution is more park and rides scattered around the city all heading straight to Kingsford.

Have you submitted this to ACC in support of NTK?  I thought that it was all just about NIBYISM rather than people with genuine concerns over traffic etc. 

I didn't see any costings for the provision of all these extra park and rides specifically to suit AFC.  It is easy to make a case for the financial viability of the site if you are offloading all the associated costs to the taxpayers.

[strichener]

Quote

This is the real reason that Pittodrie isn't suitable for redevelopment: Link

 

[kingjoey]

8 hours ago, HibsFan said:

Dunty it's time to face facts and the facts are that Milne is an utter shyster just like Robinson was at Hearts. He's had decades to avoid this situation and hasn't because he cares about money and nothing else. The Kingsford plan is a joke and it's pretty funny that only a minority of Aberdeen fans can see this fact.

Yep, Oor Stewartie only cares about money. Couldn’t care less about his club that he has put millions of his own into over the years, helped to get rid of our large debt, fought tooth and nail to keep our manager, not once but twice. What a shyster!

[Aberdeen Cowden]

2 hours ago, fatshaft said:

It's not worth anything, it's not outline planning permission, a price is agreed subject to planning already, the only planning that is being sought is for the stadium and and training grounds.

 

Again, what is this "punt"? What is the "developer" which you're now saying is AFC, going to cash in here?  They're not in it to make money, they're in it to build a new stadium. The Piries will cash in on a piece of land with no value at all, but the price isn't changing based on planning, if planning fails they will have somehwere for their coos again but nae sillar

 

 

EDIT: Do you mean that AFC have already bought the land for a small sum in the expectation it will be worth more with planning permission? I think that's what you're trying to say, if so then you are incorrect as per above. The land won't be used for anything else building wise, hence the Piries are crossing their fingers that the planning goes through so that AFC will buy the land at the agreed price, no planning, no sale. 

A "punt" in this case is buying something of little value because there isn't permission to do anything with it. Any losses would be minimal.

The Kingsford site would be worth millions with planning permission. Don't think the owners of the site will be getting much, do you?

[Aberdeen Cowden]

10 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

Yep, Oor Stewartie only cares about money. Couldn’t care less about his club that he has put millions of his own into over the years, helped to get rid of our large debt, fought tooth and nail to keep our manager, not once but twice. What a shyster!

Millions of his own?? Really.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Yep, Oor Stewartie only cares about money. Couldn’t care less about his club that he has put millions of his own into over the years, helped to get rid of our large debt, fought tooth and nail to keep our manager, not once but twice. What a shyster!

To be fair Robinson probably went in with the best of intentions as well