Official Get The Challenge Cup In The Bin Thread

[Accies88]

12 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

Tbf, most of us dream of little else than having the opportunity to play the Scotland Domestic U-20s Draft Select XI (South) on a backpitch at the Oriam.

So twice a season you couldn't put up with that? Fair enough btw it's your choice I'm just saying it could work it's all hypothetical though lol.

[Rovers_Lad]

1 hour ago, Glenconner said:

How do you define pro?

Paying wages?

Buying and selling players.

Playing in an enclosed ground?

Taking money at the gate?

 

 

Ach poorly worded on my part.What I mean with regards pro is that few if any junior clubs harbour any ambition of becoming part of  the Scottish Professional League but happy to take money from it via SC

[Poet of the Macabre]

1 hour ago, Accies88 said:

Good win for our kids last night. All under 20's. I don't back the arse cheeks colt teams being in the bottom tier but the Sfa are trying to improve our young players. But at the same time I think they are diminishing the Challenge cup with colt teams taking part. If they want to help the progress of the youth they could bring back reserve team football and send some out on loan. Also the top division should be 16 teams. Say the top 16 clubs put there two best players youth players into a pool of of 32 then into 2 teams of 16. Creating two teams of the best talent in the country who say train together once a week or whatever. We could call them ScotA and ScotB or North and South?. Would the lower leagues fans be happy with these teams in the league? 

No.

I think most people would pick their club over Scotland any day of the week and if you actually want to improve young players then you need more high-quality coaching and better facilities. 

[The Moonster]

1 hour ago, Accies88 said:

Good win for our kids last night. All under 20's. I don't back the arse cheeks colt teams being in the bottom tier but the Sfa are trying to improve our young players. But at the same time I think they are diminishing the Challenge cup with colt teams taking part. If they want to help the progress of the youth they could bring back reserve team football and send some out on loan. Also the top division should be 16 teams. Say the top 16 clubs put there two best players youth players into a pool of of 32 then into 2 teams of 16. Creating two teams of the best talent in the country who say train together once a week or whatever. We could call them ScotA and ScotB or North and South?. Would the lower leagues fans be happy with these teams in the league? 

Why don't the top 16 clubs just loan out their best 32 players to the clubs in the lower leagues instead? Keeps the competition worthwhile, young players get full seasons of game time against seniors and fans are happy because they don't need to watch their team be the fodder for these young stars. The system you're suggesting would also require the top teams to club together and pay for the expense of this team (training, shirts, stadium rental etc.), whereas the loan system actually provides an opportunity for them to save money (and even make money in some cases) at the same time providing lower league teams with a bit of extra quality. Also, with the Development Loan being widely used these young players are still training full-time with their parent clubs and gaining game time - why does this need to change?

If the top clubs are so against actually using the system that's in place for their young players to gain experience then bring back the reserve league. There is absolutely no need to shoe-horn youth teams into the league system.

[peternapper]

17 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Why don't the top 16 clubs just loan out their best 32 players to the clubs in the lower leagues instead? Keeps the competition worthwhile, young players get full seasons of game time against seniors and fans are happy because they don't need to watch their team be the fodder for these young stars. The system you're suggesting would also require the top teams to club together and pay for the expense of this team (training, shirts, stadium rental etc.), whereas the loan system actually provides an opportunity for them to save money (and even make money in some cases) at the same time providing lower league teams with a bit of extra quality. Also, with the Development Loan being widely used these young players are still training full-time with their parent clubs and gaining game time - why does this need to change?

If the top clubs are so against actually using the system that's in place for their young players to gain experience then bring back the reserve league. There is absolutely no need to shoe-horn youth teams into the league system.

Get this in the post to the suits at the SPFL, you never know they may think why did we not think of this & then come up with a plan to claim they did.

[Accies88]

1 hour ago, The Moonster said:

Why don't the top 16 clubs just loan out their best 32 players to the clubs in the lower leagues instead? Keeps the competition worthwhile, young players get full seasons of game time against seniors and fans are happy because they don't need to watch their team be the fodder for these young stars. The system you're suggesting would also require the top teams to club together and pay for the expense of this team (training, shirts, stadium rental etc.), whereas the loan system actually provides an opportunity for them to save money (and even make money in some cases) at the same time providing lower league teams with a bit of extra quality. Also, with the Development Loan being widely used these young players are still training full-time with their parent clubs and gaining game time - why does this need to change?

If the top clubs are so against actually using the system that's in place for their young players to gain experience then bring back the reserve league. There is absolutely no need to shoe-horn youth teams into the league system.

Very true can see your point about being fodder. Aye and the loan system is prob best way . We have 4 at Bo'ness. The Clubs would never agree to a 16 top flight anyway. So the least that should happen is bringing reserve football back and teams should be encouraged to loan out at least 2 players who are under 20. As for the Colts in the Challenge cup i don't like it , wasn't that long ago we were in the bottom division and playing the colts would have pissed me off especially if we had got beat! Who knows if project brave will work I hope so!

[ATLIS]

2 hours ago, Poet of the Macabre said:

No.

I think most people would pick their club over Scotland any day of the week and if you actually want to improve young players then you need more high-quality coaching and better facilities. 

100% club over country.

Sick of the same old rubbish in the Scotland team, very little ambition and the same old players always in.

[Poet of the Macabre]

Quote

 

Albion Rovers fielded an ineligible player, Liam McGuigan, during their IRN-BRU Cup First Round fixture at home to Spartans, played last night (Tuesday, 15 August, 2017). The tie finished 0-0 after extra time, with Albion Rovers then winning the resulting penalty shoot-out 5-4.

Disciplinary proceedings have therefore been commenced against Albion Rovers. Pending the outcome of these proceedings, Albion Rovers and Spartans will both be in the draw for the Second Round of this season’s IRN-BRU Cup, being held tomorrow (Thursday, 17 August, 2017)

No further statement will be provided before the disciplinary process is completed.

 

DRAMA~!

[HibeeJibee]

Now in normal circumstances - and in the Scottish Cup - they'd be out of the cup... However in the league (was it Peterhead in SPFL1?) and with Livingston v Crusaders in this cup last year, they ordered a fine and replay IIRC. Was he unregistered? Suspended?

Stranraer and Cove were also fined for fielding ineligible players in last season's League Cup groupstage.


Btw, I've seen the Ross County "B" v Forfar crowd estimated at 250-300, admittedly by a home supporter.


EDIT: Spartans have been involved in a lot of such cases in recent years.

On credit side a replay was ordered v St Mirren in the Scottish Cup (insufficient U21 outfielders) and v Elgin in the Scottish Cup (player registered after date of first tie attempt). On the debit side they were stripped of the EOS League Cup v Whitehill for playing a cuptied substitute in the final; had a replay ordered v Elgin in the Scottish Cup (unregistered player); were expelled from the Scottish Cup v Culter plus South Challenge Cup v LTHV (incorrectly registered player); were expelled from the Lowland League Cup (listed triallist); and deducted 3pts in the EOS League (suspended player).

Suspect that's an unrivalled total.

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, HibeeJibee said:

Now in normal circumstances - and in the Scottish Cup - they'd be out of the cup... However in the league (was it Peterhead in SPFL1?) and with Livingston v Crusaders in this cup last year, they ordered a fine and replay IIRC. Was he unregistered? Suspended?

As far as I can see he is unregistered. He wasnt on the suspension list.

[Big Chief Toffee Teeth]

As far as I can see he is unregistered. He wasnt on the suspension list.

Leonidas and the other 299 can take a hike. We'll take a fine. If that's in line with those imposed on SPFL Premiership sides involved in administrative errors - and bear in mind we don't have full time clerical staff - a similar percentage-of-income type fine should amount to us shelling out £3.25. In fact, I'll stump up.

[ATLIS]

3 minutes ago, Big Chief Toffee Teeth said:

Leonidas and the other 299 can take a hike. We'll take a fine. If that's in line with those imposed on SPFL Premiership sides involved in administrative errors - and bear in mind we don't have full time clerical staff - a similar percentage-of-income type fine should amount to us shelling out £3.25. In fact, I'll stump up.

if your team messed up just accept it, we paid a hefty fine and a hefty price to get back over to play Crusaders again

[cmontheloknow]

7 hours ago, Rovers_Lad said:

 

 

Ach poorly worded on my part.What I mean with regards pro is that few if any junior clubs harbour any ambition of becoming part of  the Scottish Professional League but happy to take money from it via SC

But why should participation in a national cup have any bearing on ambitions in the league? I don't think it's unusual to enter two - in England for example a large amount of non-league clubs enter the FA Cup and also the FA Trophy or the FA Vase, depending on their level.

Almost the entirety of the Highland League has no interest in being part of the SPFL. They're only there as a feeder by accident of history and geography. It wasn't something they asked for as such, though they did get what they want - a closed shop with no way out the bottom despite interest from Banks O' Dee.

As far as I know, there are no current members of the South of Scotland League interested in promotion to the Lowland League. In the East of Scotland League there is a lack of clubs interested /able - Kelty will change this. Any Junior club committing to the pyramid has to join the EOS or the SOS - like kelty have. For the clubs in the West this is a massive backwards step - would you like to see your club play in the Fife Juniors? That's the kind of step down that it is. The SJFA are also a vindictive organisation and if a Junior club decided to leave the LL, they would have to rejoin the Junior world at the bottom - in the west that would mean a 4 division relegation and 3 promotions to get back to the top level - that could mean oblivion. Until the pathways are more fairly marked, and until a decent alternative exists in the West, Junior clubs would be wise to consider the ramifications of moving onwards.

Why we even have Junior / Amateur / Welfare FAs says so much about the poor governance of the game outwith the national leagues. All for one and each association for itself. As I understand it, the Junior FAs came about because of a lack of help for smaller clubs from the Senior one, the Amateur FA as a result of the SJFA accepting professionalism and the Welfare FA is a historical anachronysm whose ongoing existence baffles me.

 

[Billy Jean King]

Now in normal circumstances - and in the Scottish Cup - they'd be out of the cup... However in the league (was it Peterhead in SPFL1?) and with Livingston v Crusaders in this cup last year, they ordered a fine and replay IIRC. Was he unregistered? Suspended?

Stranraer and Cove were also fined for fielding ineligible players in last season's League Cup groupstage.


Btw, I've seen the Ross County "B" v Forfar crowd estimated at 250-300, admittedly by a home supporter.


EDIT: Spartans have been involved in a lot of such cases in recent years.

On credit side a replay was ordered v St Mirren in the Scottish Cup (insufficient U21 outfielders) and v Elgin in the Scottish Cup (player registered after date of first tie attempt). On the debit side they were stripped of the EOS League Cup v Whitehill for playing a cuptied substitute in the final; had a replay ordered v Elgin in the Scottish Cup (unregistered player); were expelled from the Scottish Cup v Culter plus South Challenge Cup v LTHV (incorrectly registered player); were expelled from the Lowland League Cup (listed triallist); and deducted 3pts in the EOS League (suspended player).

Suspect that's an unrivalled total.

Spartans Secretary 10 mins after every cup defeat !!!

[Rovers_Lad]

1 hour ago, cmontheloknow said:

But why should participation in a national cup have any bearing on ambitions in the league? I don't think it's unusual to enter two - in England for example a large amount of non-league clubs enter the FA Cup and also the FA Trophy or the FA Vase, depending on their level.

Almost the entirety of the Highland League has no interest in being part of the SPFL. They're only there as a feeder by accident of history and geography. It wasn't something they asked for as such, though they did get what they want - a closed shop with no way out the bottom despite interest from Banks O' Dee.

As far as I know, there are no current members of the South of Scotland League interested in promotion to the Lowland League. In the East of Scotland League there is a lack of clubs interested /able - Kelty will change this. Any Junior club committing to the pyramid has to join the EOS or the SOS - like kelty have. For the clubs in the West this is a massive backwards step - would you like to see your club play in the Fife Juniors? That's the kind of step down that it is. The SJFA are also a vindictive organisation and if a Junior club decided to leave the LL, they would have to rejoin the Junior world at the bottom - in the west that would mean a 4 division relegation and 3 promotions to get back to the top level - that could mean oblivion. Until the pathways are more fairly marked, and until a decent alternative exists in the West, Junior clubs would be wise to consider the ramifications of moving onwards.

Why we even have Junior / Amateur / Welfare FAs says so much about the poor governance of the game outwith the national leagues. All for one and each association for itself. As I understand it, the Junior FAs came about because of a lack of help for smaller clubs from the Senior one, the Amateur FA as a result of the SJFA accepting professionalism and the Welfare FA is a historical anachronysm whose ongoing existence baffles me.

 

Good lesson to me on the structure of lower league football and who wants what,who does what etc

Still dont agree with junior teams being in the SC

[BIGdavieT]

On 8/15/2017 at 18:45, Poet of the Macabre said:

Personally, I'm not even a fan of the Irish/Welsh teams. Makes no difference if it's a home game and only positive I can see is an away tie is an excuse for a piss up...which you could just do anyway without the football.

Sorry but to me that is absolute nonsense. I was lucky enough to be in Denmark for Queens' Europa League fixture and it was one of the best days in my life supporting Queens. I haven't been myself but even our away day friendlies in England have been enjoyable experiences for the fans I understand.

Now I'm not trying to say the Challenge Cup is as good as the Europa League! But same as a weekend city break?! Seriously?! Without any disrespect, as your team is Stirling you may not have experienced an away day like that before. 

Piss up or not, an away day in a new country, with the atmosphere and build up of the pubs beforehand, the match against an unknown team and the aftermath is an awesome experience. I'm actually quite excited about the draw later because of the prospect of an away day in Ireland or Wales. I will try to fly back for it if that is the draw!

I really think the addition of the Welsh / Irish teams is a great idea. Very interesting, and for smaller footballing nations like ours across Europe, a great way of diversifying the opposition which was especially needed in Scottish football with our 10 team setup. The only valid argument against it I can see is the precedent being set that allows the gruesome twosome (and other big clubs,) to compete across borders in some sort of Atlantic League. I would cautiously support some sort of setup like that in place of the League Cup, but I don't think the comparison is exactly the same because this is about giving small clubs who would otherwise never get any cross-border competition a taste of it. The precedent being set, IMO, is not the same and this is why I support the Irish/Welsh teams. 

The Colt teams however are setting a precedent that it is perfectly OK for U20s (or effectively B teams,) to participate equally along with our smaller clubs. I am completely against it and if we draw a colt team I will not attend the match. I actually wasn't aware of this year's mentors which make the whole thing even more farcical. Thankfully, the attendances suggest that nobody is interested in them, even Annan/D&G old firm fans couldn't be arsed to turn out.

[teekasule]

15 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

As far as I can see he is unregistered. He wasnt on the suspension list.

Was a simple admin error. The player was with the under 20s last season but was on holiday when the rest of the 20s team signed up for this season and he slipped through the net. Thankfully he hasnt been involved so far this season. 

[Steve McQueen]

I had an idea of the challenge cup being a proper cross border trophy for championship & Welsh/Irish clubs

Then league 1 & 2 have their own cup with some non league

Means team that have no chance of winning challenge cup could win a trophy.

[Clayhole Blue]

56 minutes ago, Steve McQueen said:

I had an idea of the challenge cup being a proper cross border trophy for championship & Welsh/Irish clubs

Then league 1 & 2 have their own cup with some non league

Means team that have no chance of winning challenge cup could win a trophy.

We already had our own cup - the Challenge Cup - which is now being hijacked to satisfy the whims of some balloon at Hampden.

Don't put the Challenge Cup in the bin - just put this Colts nonsense in the bin! 

[Poet of the Macabre]

On 17/08/2017 at 06:08, BIGdavieT said:

Sorry but to me that is absolute nonsense. I was lucky enough to be in Denmark for Queens' Europa League fixture and it was one of the best days in my life supporting Queens. I haven't been myself but even our away day friendlies in England have been enjoyable experiences for the fans I understand.

Now I'm not trying to say the Challenge Cup is as good as the Europa League! But same as a weekend city break?! Seriously?! Without any disrespect, as your team is Stirling you may not have experienced an away day like that before. 

Piss up or not, an away day in a new country, with the atmosphere and build up of the pubs beforehand, the match against an unknown team and the aftermath is an awesome experience. I'm actually quite excited about the draw later because of the prospect of an away day in Ireland or Wales. I will try to fly back for it if that is the draw!

I really think the addition of the Welsh / Irish teams is a great idea. Very interesting, and for smaller footballing nations like ours across Europe, a great way of diversifying the opposition which was especially needed in Scottish football with our 10 team setup. The only valid argument against it I can see is the precedent being set that allows the gruesome twosome (and other big clubs,) to compete across borders in some sort of Atlantic League. I would cautiously support some sort of setup like that in place of the League Cup, but I don't think the comparison is exactly the same because this is about giving small clubs who would otherwise never get any cross-border competition a taste of it. The precedent being set, IMO, is not the same and this is why I support the Irish/Welsh teams. 

The Colt teams however are setting a precedent that it is perfectly OK for U20s (or effectively B teams,) to participate equally along with our smaller clubs. I am completely against it and if we draw a colt team I will not attend the match. I actually wasn't aware of this year's mentors which make the whole thing even more farcical. Thankfully, the attendances suggest that nobody is interested in them, even Annan/D&G old firm fans couldn't be arsed to turn out.

lolwut

Obviously a European tie would be exciting but yes, a pointless game in a pointless competition, would not beat a piss up with my mates. 

Excited for more low three-figure crowds tomorrow - CAN YOU FEEL THE EXCITEMENT?!