Junior players capped as Amateur Internationals - help please

[bluedragon]

Only 16 players were capped for Scotland at Amateur level whilst playing for a Junior club. I have not been able to confirm the given name(s) for five of those players and I wonder if anyone can help please? Here they are:

Finlayson L Tranent (1974) - is he Lindsay?

McGowan T Duntocher Hibernian (1973) – no clues.

McLean A Dundee Anchorage (1939) – again no clues.

McMillan A Ashfield (1970) – I think he might be Angus "Gus"?

Paton W Glenafton Athletic (1963) – I think he might be William "Billy"?

Thank you.

[larkyforever]

Tommy Ewing of Larkhall Thistle was capped at Amateur, Junior and Full International level.

If what you mean is Junior players who signed amateur forms rather than professional at Junior level, I am unsure?

[bluedragon]

Thanks. Yes – these players signed amateur forms for a Junior club and were then capped at Amateur level whilst playing Junior football. Does that make sense?

Some of the 16 players were in jobs, e.g. banking, that prohibited a second, paid job, i.e. semi-professional football. McGowan played for Duntocher Hibs when the club re-joined the Juniors but chose to play an amateur squad.

[bluedragon]

Thanks to help received we are now only missing one forename (T McGowan) and still looking for confirmation that L Findlayson is “Lindsay”. Alex McLean (Dundee Anchorage) actually played for a similarly looking amateur team (Dundee YMCA Anchorage) and so he has been taken off the list.

Here is the complete list as we have it but I am very happy to be challenged! For clarification the list is of players who were capped at Amateur International level for Scotland while signed for a Junior club. So the list only shows Tommy Barr’s one amateur cap won at Lanark United and not the 21 caps won as a Queen’s Park player.   Similarly Bobby Murray (Irvine Meadow XI) was capped three times when playing for the Metropolitan Police.

6 players were capped at both Junior and Amateur levels while playing for their Junior clubs. The Junior caps numbers are only for matches v England, Wales, Northern Ireland & the Republic of Ireland and do not include other SJFA XI matches.

The bad Winter of 1963 meant that the Amateur International against England was postponed and eventually played at Hampden Park on the evening of 15 March 1963. The Junior International against Northern Ireland was played at Firhill the following afternoon. Ian Prentice (Irvine Meadow XI) played in both matches.

Here are the six players with Amateur and Junior caps:

Gordon Armstrong (Troon Juniors) - 1 Amateur cap & 1 Junior cap

Angus "Gus" McMillan (Ashfield) - 1 & 2

William "Billy" Paton (Glenafton Athletic) - 1 & 1

John "Ian" Prentice (Irvine Meadow XI) - 4 & 1

William Stirling McDerment (Johnstone Burgh) - 1 & 1

James I Stewart (Greenock Juniors) - 2 & 1

….. and the nine players with Amateur caps:

Thomas Barr (Lanark United) - 1 Amateur cap

Lindsay Finlayson (Tranent Juniors) - 1

Alan S Johnstone (Irvine Meadow XI) - 1

Victor Matassa (Benburb) - 2

Alan McFarlane (Duntocher Hibs) - 4

T McGowan (Duntocher Hibs) - 1

Robert "Bobby" Murray (Irvine Meadow XI) - 1

Edward "Eddie" O'Neil (Thorniewood United) - 3 + 1 as sub.

William Ritchie (Cumnock Juniors) -1

[HibeeJibee]

Presume you've been using the Junior Internationals spreadsheet found in the Scottish Football Historical Archive website plus the Amateur Internationals book published a couple of years again by Brian McColl (itself based on a 1980s publications by a Canadian expatriot whose name escapes me), which is where I would have gone to look for corroborating info.


Regarding larkyforever's point - until the mid 1970s the Scotland Amateur team was run by the SFA (apart from a short spell under SAFA auspices IIRC) and it was literally that, open to anyone who was an amateur hence the majority of caps went to Queen's Park players. Various players from across the Scottish League would feature alongside those from senior non-league, junior and amateur. When the FA abolished amateur status in 1974? and the Amateur Home Nations tournament went with it, the SFA wound-up its amateur team and in the decades since the SAFA has operated its own "Scotland Amateur" team using players who feature in the SAFA's own amateur leagues only.

[HibeeJibee]

24 minutes ago, bluedragon said:

The bad Winter of 1963 meant that the Amateur International against England was postponed and eventually played at Hampden Park on the evening of 15 March 1963. The Junior International against Northern Ireland was played at Firhill the following afternoon. Ian Prentice (Irvine Meadow XI) played in both matches.

I've the programme for that tie, and to illustrate my point the Scotland Amateur XI contained - 6 Queen's Park players, 1 Dundee Utd, 1 Dunfermline Athletic, 1 Eyemouth Utd, 1 Irvine Meadow (Prentice), plus Richard Gough's father who was doing his National Service in the 3rd Parachute Regiment and playing for the British Army national team .

Previous year's line-up is given with Prentice featuring again, 7 Queen's Park, 1 Dumbarton, 1 Partick Thistle and 1 Jordanhill Technical College.

[bluedragon]

59 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

Presume you've been using the Junior Internationals spreadsheet found in the Scottish Football Historical Archive website plus the Amateur Internationals book published a couple of years again by Brian McColl (itself based on a 1980s publications by a Canadian expatriot whose name escapes me), which is where I would have gone to look for corroborating info.


Regarding larkyforever's point - until the mid 1970s the Scotland Amateur team was run by the SFA (apart from a short spell under SAFA auspices IIRC) and it was literally that, open to anyone who was an amateur hence the majority of caps went to Queen's Park players. Various players from across the Scottish League would feature alongside those from senior non-league, junior and amateur. When the FA abolished amateur status in 1974? and the Amateur Home Nations tournament went with it, the SFA wound-up its amateur team and in the decades since the SAFA has operated its own "Scotland Amateur" team using players who feature in the SAFA's own amateur leagues only.

Thanks HibeeJibee. Yes I have used both of those references and in fact I have helped Brian compile both of them. The late George Campbell is the name you are thinking of. George Campbell’s family kindly gave us access to all his original work and that inspired us to extend the records to include the other Home Nations and Great Britain. Brian was also able to add opposition line-ups, referees, attendances, etc. which are now more easily accessible in newspaper archives than when George did his original work. We are also now including forenames.

Thanks for commenting on larkyforever's point. We finish our records in 1974 when the Home Internationals ceased after the English FA ended Amateur status. However, as you point out, there has been a Scotland amateur team after 1974. Also as you recall the Scottish Amateur Football Association organised the team for a five-year period (1949-1954) and one single game in 1932 otherwise it was the SFA until 1974.

Junior players are a rarity but in the early 1970’s the SFA actively canvassed the SJFA to be alerted to good amateur players in the Junior ranks and that is probably the reason why there are comparatively more amateur caps in the 1970’s.

Finally, it is worth pointing out that Queen’s Park took their league responsibilities first and their contribution to the Scotland Amateur team second. When we have found an international with relatively few Queen’s Park players involved we have gone back to the League records to find the club had an important league match on the same date. In 1967 Queen’s Park players left the touring Great Britain squad to return to Glasgow to play in a league match.

And finally finally!  I have so far not found a Scot who was capped at Amateur, Junior and Full International levels. However, I have found Phil Woosnam playing for Wales against Scotland at all three levels.

[Nugent4nil]

A couple of seasons ago Alan MacPherson was with Arthurlie he also played for Scotland but I am not sure if it was just before/after or when he was there but its around that timescale.

[HibeeJibee]

Thanks for that Bluedragon.

Btw, in SJFA Centenary Book it says on p189 there were 22 players capped at Amateur level while playing Junior. You've discounted McLean of Dundee Anchorage. What about the other 6... Buchanan, McKenzie and McPherson of Clydebank (1930, 1930 & 1934); McGolgin of Port Glasgow (1954); Simpson of Kennoway (1938); and Peattie of St Monace (1936)?

[bluedragon]

3 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Thanks for that Bluedragon.

Btw, in SJFA Centenary Book it says on p189 there were 22 players capped at Amateur level while playing Junior. You've discounted McLean of Dundee Anchorage. What about the other 6... Buchanan, McKenzie and McPherson of Clydebank (1930, 1930 & 1934); McGolgin of Port Glasgow (1954); Simpson of Kennoway (1938); and Peattie of St Monace (1936)?

Thanks HibeeJibee. Your post was an opportunity to re-check the list. This is what we have on the six players you have mentioned. If anyone has any better information on any of these please do let me know.

Mick McColgan – All the newspaper reports surrounding his one game in 1954 gave his club as Port Glasgow Hibs that was an amateur team in the town.

Hector Simpson and William Peattie - played for Kennoway and St Monace Swifts respectively when, as Gogsy has said, were not Junior teams at the time they were capped.

W McKenzie - was capped in 1930 when Clydebank had both a Senior and Junior club under that name. We have found him playing for Clydebank in the Scottish League Division 2.

William McPherson – played for Clydebank High School FP

William Buchanan – he played for Clydebank and in the Scottish newspapers that was his club affiliation when the team was announced in February 1930.  However, he was a schoolteacher in Darlington and was playing for that town’s club when he was capped. We have taken Darlington as his club.

[HibeeJibee]

Cheers. This is all very interesting (to me anyway !)... You've established that 6 players gained both Junior and Amateur caps. Do you have figures or names for players capped at Senior and Junior, or Senior and Amateur?

[bluedragon]

Here is the list of amateur and senior caps as we have it. If you (or anyone else) spot any players missing I am very happy to check it out.

Bobby Clark (Queen's Park) 8 amateur caps & 17 full caps

Peter Cormack (Hibernian) 5 & 9

Jim Cruikshank (Queen's Park) 2 & 6

Donald Ford (Heart of Midlothian) 9 & 3

Jack Harkness (Queen's Park) 2 & 11

David Holt (Queen's Park) 4 & 5

John Little (Queen's Park) 3 & 1

Peter Lorimer (Leeds United) 7 & 21

Bert McCann (Dundee United/Queen's Park) 6 & 5

Tommy McLean (Kilmarnock) 4 & 6

Ronnie Simpson (Queen's Park) 3 & 5

1) The clubs are the one where they won their amateur caps.

2) I have not checked it out but I think only Peter Cormack, Donald Ford, Peter Lorimer and Tommy McLean won amateur and full caps at the same club.

3) Peter Cormack, Peter Lorimer and Tommy McLean were probably always destined for professional careers but were capped at around 17 years of age before they had signed professional forms.

4) Sir Alex Ferguson (Queen's Park) won one Amateur cap but his appearances for the full Scotland team were in the 1967 World tour where the games were classed as unofficial

5) In an earlier post larkyforever mentioned Tommy Ewing as a possible triple internationalist.  Tommy won 2 full caps whilst at Partick Thistle but I cannot find him in the Junior or Amateur listings. There could be a numbers of reasons, e.g. late injury call off, junior selection was in the reserve XI, etc. Happy to check further if there are some clues.

 

 

[HibeeJibee]

Thanks, again very interesting.

Jim Cruickshank got quite a set - Schoolboy, Amateur, U23, Scottish League and Scotland - while Ronnie Simpson capped Amateur, GB Amateur, Scottish League, "B", Scotland!

[bluedragon]

I have now learned that it was Thomas McGowan who won an Amateur cap while at Duntocher Hibs and it was indeed Lindsay Finlayson who did the same at Tranent Juniors. Original question answered!

Here is a part-answer to your second question – how many players were capped at Junior and Full international level.

It is not a complete list. In the near future we are hoping to review the existing details of Junior Internationals on the Scottish Football Historical Archive and try and produce a definitive list. If you (or anyone else) can add some at this stage it would be appreciated. The Junior details include games played by the SJFA XI against other sides apart from England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

Pat Crerand (Duntocher Hibs) 3 Junior caps & 16 Full caps

Andy Cunningham (Newmilns) 1 & 2

Kenny Dalglish (Cumbernauld United) 1 & 102

Bobby Dougan (Shawfield) 3 & 1

Dougie Gray (Mugiemoss) 2 & 10

Bobby Hogg (Royal Albert) 3 & 1

Jimmy Johnstone (Blantyre Celtic) 1 & 23

Alec Scott (Bo'ness United) 3 & 16

Dave Mackay (Newtongrange Star) 1 & 22

Peter Nellies (Douglas Water Thistle) 1 & 2

Willie Pettigrew (East Kilbride Thistle) 2 & 5

Bobby Walker (Dalry Primrose) 1 & 29

Benny Yorston (Mugiemoss) 1 & 1

 

[Brig O'Lea]

On 17/08/2017 at 13:35, bluedragon said:

I have now learned that it was Thomas McGowan who won an Amateur cap while at Duntocher Hibs and it was indeed Lindsay Finlayson who did the same at Tranent Juniors. Original question answered!

Here is a part-answer to your second question – how many players were capped at Junior and Full international level.

It is not a complete list. In the near future we are hoping to review the existing details of Junior Internationals on the Scottish Football Historical Archive and try and produce a definitive list. If you (or anyone else) can add some at this stage it would be appreciated. The Junior details include games played by the SJFA XI against other sides apart from the England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

Pat Crerand (Duntocher Hibs) 3 Junior caps & 16 Full caps

Andy Cunningham (Newmilns) 1 & 2

Kenny Dalglish (Cumbernauld United) 1 & 102

Bobby Dougan (Shawfield) 3 & 1

Dougie Gray (Mugiemoss) 2 & 10

Bobby Hogg (Royal Albert) 3 & 1

Jimmy Johnstone (Blantyre Celtic) 1 & 23

Alec Scott (Bo'ness United) 3 & 16

Dave Mackay (Newtongrange Star) 1 & 22

Peter Nellies (Douglas Water Thistle) 1 & 2

Willie Pettigrew (East Kilbride Thistle) 2 & 5

Bobby Walker (Dalry Primrose) 1 & 29

Benny Yorston (Mugiemoss) 1 & 1

 

Dixie Deans (Neilston Juniors) 1 & 2

[bluedragon]

Thanks Gogsy. I think the SJFA Centenary Book only says Peattie of St Monance was capped at Amateur level whilst playing Junior and not that he was also capped at Junior level.  However, as we know that St Monance was not a Junior club at that time Peattie could not have been capped at Junior level and I cannot find him as a Junior international for another club around that time. I am therefore not sure how the SJFA Centenary Book lists him in that way. George Campbell’s book on amateur internationals (written in 1989) has St Monance Swifts in the “other clubs” and not in the “Juniors” in the analysis .

So in short it looks as if the SJFA Centenary Book might be incorrect. Unless of course anyone knows anything different. 

[bluedragon]

 

9 hours ago, Brig O'Lea said:

Dixie Deans (Neilston Juniors) 1 & 2

Thanks Brig O'Lea  - Dixie duly added to the list.