PB 4.2 Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 Just now, Loondave1 said: I will rephrase to being better off fiscally.Feel free to be embarrassed on other peoples behalf.What is that all about though.Im embarrassed that you feel the need to be embarrassed for other peoples opinions.We can all sleep easy now. Perhaps you should have said "better off fiscally". Because that's a million miles away from "Fiscally unviable". Your vote for Labour doesn't really square with getting the best deal for Scotland though, does it? Given that their inability to run the country has saddled the taxpayer with 12 figure PFI debt and they were happy to cut Scotland's budget by up to £8billion per annum. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 Perhaps you should have said "better off fiscally". Because that's a million miles away from "Fiscally unviable". Your vote for Labour doesn't really square with getting the best deal for Scotland though, does it? Given that their inability to run the country has saddled the taxpayer with 12 figure PFI debt and they were happy to cut Scotland's budget by up to £8billion per annum. The only hope for real change lies at Westminster and the Labour party.For all the supposed things Indy might bring it ain't happening and hypothetical scenarios about it are pointless.If you wish to spend decade after decade hearing about Indy being round the next corner that's your choice.Mine is for something that has a real possibility.PFI ?? Yes a shitty Blairite idea but things have moved on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB 4.2 Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 Just now, Loondave1 said: The only hope for real change lies at Westminster and the Labour party.For all the supposed things Indy might bring it ain't happening and hypothetical scenarios about it are pointless.If you wish to spend decade after decade hearing about Indy being round the next corner that's your choice.Mine is for something that has a real possibility.PFI ?? Yes a shitty Blairite idea but things have moved on. Yet your argument unravels during sentence one. You complain about me waiting on the hypothetical scenario of indyref2, or if you prefer 3 years. You're clinging to hope about real change at Westminister. I've seen nothing but a switch to neo-liberal ideologies during my lifetime at Westminister from parties blue and red. You've endured a lifetime of disappointment waiting for change, which won't happen. I'm happy to wait a year or two for indyref2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 Yet your argument unravels during sentence one. You complain about me waiting on the hypothetical scenario of indyref2, or if you prefer 3 years. You're clinging to hope about real change at Westminister. I've seen nothing but a switch to neo-liberal ideologies during my lifetime at Westminister from parties blue and red. You've endured a lifetime of disappointment waiting for change, which won't happen. I'm happy to wait a year or two for indyref2. The fact you think it's a "year or two" for Indy2 let alone winning it shows the degree of delusion.Change in the UK is a real possibility and in a timescale that could be potentially months.Regardless of that i consistently fail to see any real radically left policies from the SNP. Just enough lip service to keep people onboard.Indy is over for decades,federalism maybe but Indy ? Not a hope. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB 4.2 Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 Just now, Loondave1 said: The fact you think it's a "year or two" for Indy2 let alone winning it shows the degree of delusion.Change in the UK is a real possibility and in a timescale that could be potentially months.Regardless of that i consistently fail to see any real radically left policies from the SNP. Just enough lip service to keep people onboard.Indy is over for decades,federalism maybe but Indy ? Not a hope. Nice rehash job. Change in the UK has been a "real possibility" for centuries. You're championing of the failed nation state absolutely show degrees of delusion, with blinkers on if you can't see any left-wing policies from the SG. Given that you've failed with the "change is more probable with Westminister" Schtick, perhaps you might outline how the UK has served Scotland well fiscally and why we'd be uniquely the only country in the world unable to control tax and spend? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 Change in the UK is a fucking nonsense when Corbyn keeps whipping his MPs to walk shoulder to shoulder with the Tories in to the voting lobbies.Its independence supporters who are deluded though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Nice rehash job. Change in the UK has been a "real possibility" for centuries. You're championing of the failed nation state absolutely show degrees of delusion, with blinkers on if you can't see any left-wing policies from the SG. Given that you've failed with the "change is more probable with Westminister" Schtick, perhaps you might outline how the UK has served Scotland well fiscally and why we'd be uniquely the only country in the world unable to control tax and spend? Change in the UK is a fucking nonsense when Corbyn keeps whipping his MPs to walk shoulder to shoulder with the Tories in to the voting lobbies.Its independence supporters who are deluded though. Yes they are.And clearly they are also increasingly rattled at the direction politics is moving.I voted Remain and the majority Out so that's democracy unfortunately.Mitigating it's effects is the goal but you just keep throwing your toys out of the pram. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 .Mitigating it's effects is the goal but you just keep throwing your toys out of the pram. In what way is voting with a right wing government 'mitigating its effects'? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Nice rehash job. Change in the UK has been a "real possibility" for centuries. You're championing of the failed nation state absolutely show degrees of delusion, with blinkers on if you can't see any left-wing policies from the SG. Given that you've failed with the "change is more probable with Westminister" Schtick, perhaps you might outline how the UK has served Scotland well fiscally and why we'd be uniquely the only country in the world unable to control tax and spend? I notice you have appointed yourself judge of where my "schtick" has failed as an impartial arbiter....JC4PM or Indy2 victory ? Which has a glimmer of hope ? Change is more likely at WM than Indy2.Unpalatable to you understandably but it is factual as polling and bookmaker odds will confirm.Nats are really getting rattled as Nationalism presumably trumps Socialism in the mind of a Nationalist.Rallying round nationalism brings many strange bedfellows together each projecting a wholly different vision on a flag.I will give it a miss.Goodnight. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 In what way is voting with a right wing government 'mitigating its effects'? The Labour Party agreed that Brexit is happening and are not attempting to stop it occuring but as many other parties will do are trying to make the best of it through amendments.I feel we are just going down the tiresome not voting the same as the SNP is voting with the Tories routine.Im quite happy to support the democratic but to my mind bad decision to leave Europe and see politicians try to make the best of it.You can just keep foot stamping and shouting "red tories" or some such.The electorate are getting bored of that fortunately. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 6 minutes ago, Loondave1 said: The Labour Party agreed that Brexit is happening and are not attempting to stop it occuring but as many other parties will do are trying to make the best of it through amendments.I feel we are just going down the tiresome not voting the same as the SNP is voting with the Tories routine.Im quite happy to support the democratic but to my mind bad decision to leave Europe and see politicians try to make the best of it.You can just keep foot stamping and shouting "red tories" or some such.The electorate are getting bored of that fortunately. Mmmm.....a page or two ago, you said you would support independence if it was "fiscally viable." You were challenged All of a sudden it has to be "better off fiscally" Shifting goalposts and all that. Fir aw yer shite about being a socialist, like many supporters of the branch office, the base political instinct of nationalism comes first. Goodnight britnat 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 35 minutes ago, Loondave1 said: The Labour Party agreed that Brexit is happening and are not attempting to stop it occuring but as many other parties will do are trying to make the best of it through amendments.I feel we are just going down the tiresome not voting the same as the SNP is voting with the Tories routine.Im quite happy to support the democratic but to my mind bad decision to leave Europe and see politicians try to make the best of it.You can just keep foot stamping and shouting "red tories" or some such.The electorate are getting bored of that fortunately. Labours Ian Murray tried to mitigate the worst effects of brexit with an amendment to protect custom union membership tonight. Corbyn whipped against it. Please keep up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 A waiting party of government can't vote on custom union membership right now when the public hasn't shown any clear willingness to go against Brexit. Trying to turn Ian Murray and Chuku Umunna into principled politicians is really odd as well. They're opportunists. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, NotThePars said: A waiting party of government can't vote on custom union membership right now when the public hasn't shown any clear willingness to go against Brexit. Trying to turn Ian Murray and Chuku Umunna into principled politicians is really odd as well. They're opportunists. Oh dear.....public opinion superceding doing what is right. Have a feeling the labour party have been down this road before? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 I truly don't know what they expect to happen if Labour suddenly came out against Brexit other than a crushing Tory majority. The two parties that stood explicitly against Brexit lost seats and/ major party figures. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 1 minute ago, NotThePars said: I truly don't know what they expect to happen if Labour suddenly came out against Brexit other than a crushing Tory majority. The two parties that stood explicitly against Brexit lost seats and/ major party figures. Short term losses. Long term gains 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Labour's current stance could easily see them replace a Tory party that's potentially months if not weeks away from imploding. There's nothing to suggest that coming out against Brexit atm will do anything other than consign us to another decade of Conservative majorities. Plenty of that 4 million that flocked back in 2017 came from people that voted for Brexit and/ or UKIP. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 1 minute ago, NotThePars said: Labour's current stance could easily see them replace a Tory party that's potentially months if not weeks away from imploding. There's nothing to suggest that coming out against Brexit atm will do anything other than consign us to another decade of Conservative majorities. Plenty of that 4 million that flocked back in 2017 came from people that voted for Brexit and/ or UKIP. Doesn't make it right......and all sane folk know it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Labours Ian Murray tried to mitigate the worst effects of brexit with an amendment to protect custom union membership tonight. Corbyn whipped against it. Please keep up. Corbyn whipping against Ian Murray's amendment is not the same as endorsing every Tory proposal much as Nats would like to portray it as such.Any party nationally that succeeded in totally derailing Brexit would be heavily punished electorally.Pragmatism and "slowly slowly catchee monkey". A fair few Nationalists are anti Europe as well although you would never know by the way it's represented by some people.This is the adult world not the neat tidy "with us or against us" simplistic view so beloved of Nationalists. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Nats Nationalists Nationalists. Obsessed. There are labour MP's who are remainers who are just as upset at this but that won't fit your pathetic agenda.It seems a total waste of time to support a party who,when in opposition, don't really oppose much.Then when they get into government they spend their time trying to be Tory lite. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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