The Pyramid: A Proposed Structure

[daleboy1969]

Just noticed our village idiot has got involved on this thread, what I can't understand is this constant feeling in the East that lowland league and EOS league clubs have in some way such better facilities than our junior clubs,  this is utter nonsense most off the facilities in these leagues are below the standard off junior clubs ( although I do believe we need to bring our facilities upto a better standard) how these clubs have entry into the so called big Scottish cup while clubs like Auchinleck and others don't is at best laughable, but that doesn't mean we should jump ship to play these clubs, it's not long since clubs in these leagues were knocking on the juniors door ( 2 recently in the East region) if the clubs that make most noise on change were the ones regularly winning our premier cup then I would get worried, however until now that has not been the case. I believe junior football has more to offer in Scotland than the lower senior clubs. 

[AlanCamelonfan]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

Absolutely, but as long as TJ is paid a healthy salary to move pencils around a desk at Hampden then nothing will change.

Maybe it will take the likes of Bo'ness to follow Kelty the season after next to make him sit up and take notice because if they do then more clubs in the East are certain to follow, and I for one would rather this issue was dealt with in a constructive manner rather than a slow drip into the EoSFL. However as I said, I can see a scenario where the East eventually breaks away, or at least a significant percentage of clubs in 3-5 years time once the precedent has been set.

 

OR see that it doesn't work for Kelty and either kelty come back or everyone else doesn't want to move.  There is 60 clubs left in the Juniors.  ONly Bo'ness have said an interest. Linlithgow Rose don't seem to be interested in a move.  Bonnyrigg depends who you listen too.  It actually isn't the will of the clubs to go. Bo'ness may go but I feel they will change their tune.

[Burnie_man]

Just now, AlanCamelonfan said:

OR see that it doesn't work for Kelty and either kelty come back or everyone else doesn't want to move.  There is 60 clubs left in the Juniors.  ONly Bo'ness have said an interest. Linlithgow Rose don't seem to be interested in a move.  Bonnyrigg depends who you listen too.  It actually isn't the will of the clubs to go. Bo'ness may go but I feel they will change their tune.

Possible. However Kelty will walk the EoS and be a LL club this time next year.  Bo'ness will follow next year, they want Licenced as well. After that? who knows but I bet Linlithgow's interest increases if their rivals go, and it isn't only the big hitters keeping tabs on this, more clubs will follow.

[Burnie_man]

27 minutes ago, daleboy1969 said:

Just noticed our village idiot has got involved on this thread, what I can't understand is this constant feeling in the East that lowland league and EOS league clubs have in some way such better facilities than our junior clubs,  this is utter nonsense most off the facilities in these leagues are below the standard off junior clubs ( although I do believe we need to bring our facilities upto a better standard) how these clubs have entry into the so called big Scottish cup while clubs like Auchinleck and others don't is at best laughable, but that doesn't mean we should jump ship to play these clubs, it's not long since clubs in these leagues were knocking on the juniors door ( 2 recently in the East region) if the clubs that make most noise on change were the ones regularly winning our premier cup then I would get worried, however until now that has not been the case. I believe junior football has more to offer in Scotland than the lower senior clubs. 

Kelty have won two of the last three Superleague titles and are gone, prior to that Bo'ness won three Superleagues in five years and they are racing certainties to follow Kelty. Thats five winners in the last eight seasons gone or going. The only other winners in that time are Linlithgow (once) who are already Licenced and Bonnyrigg (twice), the latter had a great run in the Scottish this season and want more of the same.

How much more noise do you want?

[itzdrk]

I think that having the Highland and Lowland as they are should stay, its below them any new structure should be in place.

My reasoning is that (its not a slight at the juniors for once ) it provides a bit of a filter league (or stepping stone) so that you arent asking clubs straight off to go from their regional football into a full scale national league.  

Is there any logistical reason that the juniors couldn't keep their structure and 10,000 cups and just enter en masse at the same level as EoS & SoS? 

[Che Dail]

1 hour ago, marconi said:

this unhealthy obsession with a pyramid system seems to be an east of scotland  thing. the west juniors and s o s league have  no interest in a pyramid system  so it will not happen any time in the near future.  there is no obvious advantage in either the competetive or financial projections  to make them change their posotion. so could we please have a rest from this topic until something  changes

I'm afraid to say that the pyramid system is here to stay whether you like it or not, and I think the conversation and action around it will continue to gain momentum over time.  It forms part of the One National Plan, Scotland United: A 2020 Vision which places emphasis on grassroots, performance, growth, improved financial returns and leadership.

It's not an East / West thing - it is about uniting clubs, not dividing them.   

However, it is not mandatory - everyone has a choice to either take what's on offer or leave it, based on what's best for them.

Have a read, there's a lovely diagram of a pyramid on page 7   :  http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/SFAPublications/ScottishFAPublications2015-16/Scotland United II.pdf

[GLENAFTON93]

This is the only place the Pyramid is talked about whether you like it or not, i have heard no interest in it at any ground,club,pub or from any other supporters, its just not a topic of conversation no matter how you and others bring it up. And this is my own personal feeling and nothing to do with my own club.

[Che Dail]

47 minutes ago, daleboy1969 said:

Just noticed our village idiot has got involved on this thread, what I can't understand is this constant feeling in the East that lowland league and EOS league clubs have in some way such better facilities than our junior clubs,  this is utter nonsense most off the facilities in these leagues are below the standard off junior clubs ( although I do believe we need to bring our facilities upto a better standard) how these clubs have entry into the so called big Scottish cup while clubs like Auchinleck and others don't is at best laughable, but that doesn't mean we should jump ship to play these clubs, it's not long since clubs in these leagues were knocking on the juniors door ( 2 recently in the East region) if the clubs that make most noise on change were the ones regularly winning our premier cup then I would get worried, however until now that has not been the case. I believe junior football has more to offer in Scotland than the lower senior clubs. 

It's not just about facilities - the licensing criteria also focuses on a club's governance, youth player pathway, SFA Quality Mark, Legal, Admin, Finance, Codes of Conduct etc - nothing beyond the achievements of any well run organisation.  Not all EoS clubs have a license btw, that's why LTHV didn't get promoted to LL this season.

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, GLENAFTON93 said:

This is the only place the Pyramid is talked about whether you like it or not, i have heard no interest in it at any ground,club,pub or from any other supporters, its just not a topic of conversation no matter how you and others bring it up. And this is my own personal feeling and nothing to do with my own club.

I talk about it quite a bit at games and out with the interwebby. When a club like Kelty leaves, people talk about it and want to know more.

You never know, you might enjoy the big Scottish next season and want more of it.......

[Che Dail]

16 minutes ago, GLENAFTON93 said:

This is the only place the Pyramid is talked about whether you like it or not, i have heard no interest in it at any ground,club,pub or from any other supporters, its just not a topic of conversation no matter how you and others bring it up. And this is my own personal feeling and nothing to do with my own club.

Ok, fair comment - thanks.

[GLENAFTON93]

15 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I talk about it quite a bit at games and out with the interwebby. When a club like Kelty leaves, people talk about it and want to know more.

Well sorry to say we dont have your twin over here in the West doing the same thing at any game ive been too, and again the talk about Kelty that ive heard is, i see Kelty have moved leagues, who Kelty?

[rednblack]

This is the only place the Pyramid is talked about whether you like it or not, i have heard no interest in it at any ground,club,pub or from any other supporters, its just not a topic of conversation no matter how you and others bring it up. And this is my own personal feeling and nothing to do with my own club.

I agree it's just not talked about at any game you go to in our leagues.

[kefc]

I think this is a brilliant setup proposed on the 1st post but I'm almost certain EOS & SOS Leagues or clubs won't be shifted below Junior clubs.

These leagues are SFA affiliated,  I can't see the SJFA being allowed to be moved above them, any future reconstruction if there is any then I'd think the SJFA clubs would move in under these leagues. These leagues are run with help and a good relationship from the SFA. The SJFA quite possibly have shot themselves in the foot due to non engagement. Clubs will have to take it upon themselves to get into the pyramid if they so wished, if they don't and reconstruction is done in time then ambitious clubs could find themselves at tier 7 or 8.

Since we have made our move we have found out the EOS League help all clubs with 4 separate insurance policies free, free defibrillator, 4 SPFL Mitre Delta matchballs worth £115 each along with the fixture list, u20 League. This is the same in the Lowland League.

Money obviously plays a massive part in building a club in terms of facilities, infrastructure and the squad there's no point any club hiding that, also the publicity being part of the pyramid can give you off the national competitions is huge if successful. Over the last month there's been increases in participation prize money in the national cups which is club changing money if invested well for small clubs.

East Kilbride as Lowland League winners are in the Betfred a Group Stage, if they finish 5th from the 5 in the group they receive minimum £17,000 up from £15,000 last season. This doesn't include Matchday income from a guaranteed 2 home matches - http://spfl.co.uk/news/article/betfred-cup-boost-for-spfl-clubs/

The top 4 clubs in the Lowland League get into the Irn Bru Cup, again the money was increased this year, £3,000 just for playing in the 1st round. - http://spfl.co.uk/news/article/spfl-reveal-updated-irn-bru-cup-format/

Then you have the William Hill Scottish Cup where the money is huge, anything from £5,000 to £10's or possibly £100's of thousands as Bonnyrigg found out.

The SFA are rewarding their clubs which is increasing each season, this will help improve and build there non league member clubs. The SJFA are not entertained which is a shame, massive, brilliant clubs having to generate their own income with no financial rewards, the Super League or Scottish Junior Cup winners enter at the very 1st prelim round of the Scot Cup which kinds of tells the story. 

This isn't a plug for the EOS or Lowland League but these are facts that really hits home to us at Kelty that we made the correct decision, we feel wanted and appreciated like im sure all clubs involved do.

[welshbairn]

Inverness City would need to field over 60's with bus passes. Although they already have too much travelling, and might not exist next season, so carry on.

[Che Dail]

1 hour ago, itzdrk said:

My reasoning is that (its not a slight at the juniors for once ) it provides a bit of a filter league (or stepping stone) so that you arent asking clubs straight off to go from their regional football into a full scale national league.

 

One reason why Linlithgow are historically reluctant to move is exactly that, i.e. beyond the LL they could be in for trips to Elgin, Peterhead, Montrose etc twice a season. They're a relatively big fish in a small pond at the moment, and moving out of that as things currently stand would mean that they might not enjoy the same level of success as they've enjoyed over the years as a top Junior club - a completely rational point of view and understandable.

But if the leagues are regionalized below the top two pro leagues (as per Denmark) then you remove this barrier - by bringing some of the established senior clubs into the third tier, economies are made for all clubs, and those leagues become more interesting.  

Sustainable community clubs like Linlithgow (500+playing members), Bonnyrigg (900+ playing members), Spartans (1000+ playing members) could in time be one or two jumps away from competing alongside Raith, Dunfermline, Falkirk etc.  

To me the pyramid needs to be worked out from the top down to support best v best at the highest level, and to support clubs in the leagues below them.

 

 

[Hillonearth]

54 minutes ago, itzdrk said:

I think that having the Highland and Lowland as they are should stay, its below them any new structure should be in place.

My reasoning is that (its not a slight at the juniors for once ) it provides a bit of a filter league (or stepping stone) so that you arent asking clubs straight off to go from their regional football into a full scale national league.  

Is there any logistical reason that the juniors couldn't keep their structure and 10,000 cups and just enter en masse at the same level as EoS & SoS? 

I don't see it happening en masse for a few reasons - sheer weight of numbers - 160-odd clubs -  would mean swamping any pre-existing structure, and moreover with that sheer amount of stakeholders it's very difficult to present a unified front.

For every Pollok, Linlithgow or Talbot there are two or three clubs out of that 160-odd for whom success is merely continuing to exist...for that reason there many of them are deeply risk-averse and unlikely to take any sort of precipitate leap of faith, run as they are by a few normally older volunteers.

As things stand I can see a few more East clubs jumping ship, much less so in the West.

P.S - 10,000 cups?

Four - two of which most of us would happily get rid of

[Che Dail]

31 minutes ago, kefc said:

I think this is a brilliant setup proposed on the 1st post but I'm almost certain EOS & SOS Leagues or clubs won't be shifted below Junior clubs.

These leagues are SFA affiliated,  I can't see the SJFA being allowed to be moved above them, any future reconstruction if there is any then I'd think the SJFA clubs would move in under these leagues. These leagues are run with help and a good relationship from the SFA. The SJFA quite possibly have shot themselves in the foot due to non engagement. Clubs will have to take it upon themselves to get into the pyramid if they so wished, if they don't and reconstruction is done in time then ambitious clubs could find themselves at tier 7 or 8.

Since we have made our move we have found out the EOS League help all clubs with 4 separate insurance policies free, free defibrillator, 4 SPFL Mitre Delta matchballs worth £115 each along with the fixture list, u20 League. This is the same in the Lowland League.

Money obviously plays a massive part in building a club in terms of facilities, infrastructure and the squad there's no point any club hiding that, also the publicity being part of the pyramid can give you off the national competitions is huge if successful. Over the last month there's been increases in participation prize money in the national cups which is club changing money if invested well for small clubs.

East Kilbride as Lowland League winners are in the Betfred a Group Stage, if they finish 5th from the 5 in the group they receive minimum £17,000 up from £15,000 last season. This doesn't include Matchday income from a guaranteed 2 home matches - http://spfl.co.uk/news/article/betfred-cup-boost-for-spfl-clubs/

The top 4 clubs in the Lowland League get into the Irn Bru Cup, again the money was increased this year, £3,000 just for playing in the 1st round. - http://spfl.co.uk/news/article/spfl-reveal-updated-irn-bru-cup-format/

Then you have the William Hill Scottish Cup where the money is huge, anything from £5,000 to £10's or possibly £100's of thousands as Bonnyrigg found out.

The SFA are rewarding their clubs which is increasing each season, this will help improve and build there non league member clubs. The SJFA are not entertained which is a shame, massive, brilliant clubs having to generate their own income with no financial rewards, the Super League or Scottish Junior Cup winners enter at the very 1st prelim round of the Scot Cup which kinds of tells the story. 

This isn't a plug for the EOS or Lowland League but these are facts that really hits home to us at Kelty that we made the correct decision, we feel wanted and appreciated like im sure all clubs involved do.

Thanks,

Great info - eye opening - shows what is possible.

[The Mantis]

4 hours ago, ex-german exile said:

The junior game currently has loads of local derbies and club rivalries that attract fans to games, I'm not sure that playing Whitehill Welfare would have the same appeal.
 

Living halfway between Whitehill and Bonnyrigg, i.e. 1 mile from each, I wonder if you've ever been through here and are just a weeeee bit prejudiced. Same goes for Preston/Tranent.

[Bully Wee Villa]

I don't like it. We can't get promoted in a 1.75/10 system, let alone with 48 teams battling for, what, two promotion places?

There's really no need to regionalise before you get to current non-league clubs. Scotland isn't that big.

[itzdrk]

1 hour ago, Hillonearth said:

I don't see it happening en masse for a few reasons - sheer weight of numbers - 160-odd clubs -  would mean swamping any pre-existing structure, and moreover with that sheer amount of stakeholders it's very difficult to present a unified front.

For every Pollok, Linlithgow or Talbot there are two or three clubs out of that 160-odd for whom success is merely continuing to exist...for that reason there many of them are deeply risk-averse and unlikely to take any sort of precipitate leap of faith, run as they are by a few normally older volunteers.

As things stand I can see a few more East clubs jumping ship, much less so in the West.

P.S - 10,000 cups?

Four - two of which most of us would happily get rid of

It was with those small clubs in mind i thought of keeping the structure, essentially trying to mitigate risk to its lowest level.  Maybe im just missing something though.