Jump to content

My daft laddie Junior football questions


GordonS

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, Ian38018 said:

Pedantic on my part here, I know - but I once had it pointedly impressed upon me by a committee member that the club is Thornton HIBS, not Hibernian.

The Benburb business has always puzzled me, for the community by that name in Northern Ireland is such a modestly-sized place, I cannot imagine it gave rise to two junior clubs.  I know there was a Battle of Benburb, which was won by the Republican (i.e Catholic) side.  So perhaps the clubs were named in recognition of this victory?  All very puzzling.   

On the pedantic side the term Republican in connection to Irish history is about 150 years forward in time from the Battle of Benburb in 1646.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 215
  • Created
  • Last Reply
5 hours ago, Glenconner said:

On the pedantic side the term Republican in connection to Irish history is about 150 years forward in time from the Battle of Benburb in 1646.

Quite correct.  i think perhaps the term "Confederate" is more appropriate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, bluedragon said:

I had a quick look at this great blog that gives a great summary of the origins of today’s club.

http://benburbfc.blogspot.co.uk/2009/08/benburb-final-chapter-and-new-beginning.html

Here is a short extract:

"So the Benburb of today appear to be a new club that started playing their first match on 15 October 1898 with the committee having no connection with the previous Benburb club……. We can only speculate again as to the use of the Benburb name by the new committee. Was it a bid to honour and recapture the spirit of the previous Benburb club- 'the most successful Junior team in Glasgow'?

Or was it a play to the mood of the time? The Glasgow Junior League was conscious of the clubs that could lure good crowds and there were moves afoot to jettison the least supported clubs. Did the new club hope to give itself a head start by adopting the name of a previously popular club in Junior circles?"

This idea of giving a perception of a link between the old and the new clubs is supported by an advertisement in The Derry Journal of 30 December 1898 for a match at Celtic Park on 31 December 1898 under the banner “First visit to Derry of the Great Benburb (Glasgow)”. The “Great” prefix was earned by the old club but used to attract spectators.

Earlier in the link it mentions that the new club bought the kit from the old club. The old club played in green and white. The new club later changed to Royal blue.

This suggests that today’s Benburb adopted its name for practical and economic reasons.

The first Benburb was formed in Govanhill in 1886 and played until 1895. This team merged with Crown Athletic in 1895 to form Oatlands that almost immediately collapsed. The second Benburb were formed straight away and played in Oatlands and survived until  July 1898 when the Council took over their ground to create Richmond Park. So it looks as if the Irish derivation is from the club formed in 1886.

bluedragon, have you ever came across a Junior team in your research called Greyfriars playing in the Oatlands area?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Glenconner said:

bluedragon, have you ever came across a Junior team in your research called Greyfriars playing in the Oatlands area?

My starting point is the excellent Club Directory on the Scottish Football Historical Archive. It says that Greyfriars FC were based in Polmadie  and played between 1932 and 1940 but from 1932 to 1938 operated as St Francis when they were in the Scottish Junior Football League. They played at Friary Park.

I found league records for both clubs. Some of these league records are incomplete but are mostly sufficient to give you an idea of how they were doing in each season.

St Francis

Scottish Junior Football League (West):

1932/33 13th out of 14 clubs

1933/34 8th out of 17 clubs

1934/35 2nd out of 18 clubs

1935/36 1st equal on points out of 17 clubs. The four clubs equal on points at the top played off for the West division title. St Francis record was Won 1 Drew 1 Lost 1. Rothesay Royal Victoria were undefeated and went on to beat Forth Rangers in the Championship play-off.

1936/37 In the league but no record unfortunately.

Greyfriars 

Central Junior Football League (East):

1937/38 In the league but no record unfortunately.

1938/39 14th out of 14 clubs

1939/40 In the league but no record unfortunately.

The newspapers of the day covered the connection (or not!) between St Francis and Greyfriars.

The Kirkintilloch Herald - Wednesday 7 July 1937 gave a report from the Management Committee of the Scottish Junior League held on Friday 2 July 1937. It reported:

“The question of St Francis was discussed. The team tendered their resignation, and a new club, Greyfriars, was started in the same district and secured admission to the Central League. It is contended that St Francis and Greyfriars are one and the same club, and in contravention of Rule 13 of the Scottish Association to leave one League to join another without the sanction of the League with whom they were connected. The matter will be reported to the parent body [Scottish Junior Football Association] for investigation.”

This was duly dealt with by the SJFA and the same newspaper reported on 21 July 1937:

“At the Emergency Committee of the Scottish Junior FA in Glasgow on Wednesday night [14 July 1937], the Scottish Junior League, who objected to Greyfriars club being included in the membership of the Scottish Central League, failed to convince the delegates that the new club and St Francis were the same organisation with a change of name. No action was, therefore, taken.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, bluedragon said:

My starting point is the excellent Club Directory on the Scottish Football Historical Archive. It says that Greyfriars FC were based in Polmadie  and played between 1932 and 1940 but from 1932 to 1938 operated as St Francis when they were in the Scottish Junior Football League. They played at Friary Park.

I found league records for both clubs. Some of these league records are incomplete but are mostly sufficient to give you an idea of how they were doing in each season.

St Francis

Scottish Junior Football League (West):

1932/33 13th out of 14 clubs

1933/34 8th out of 17 clubs

1934/35 2nd out of 18 clubs

1935/36 1st equal on points out of 17 clubs. The four clubs equal on points at the top played off for the West division title. St Francis record was Won 1 Drew 1 Lost 1. Rothesay Royal Victoria were undefeated and went on to beat Forth Rangers in the Championship play-off.

1936/37 In the league but no record unfortunately.

Greyfriars 

Central Junior Football League (East):

1937/38 In the league but no record unfortunately.

1938/39 14th out of 14 clubs

1939/40 In the league but no record unfortunately.

The newspapers of the day covered the connection (or not!) between St Francis and Greyfriars.

The Kirkintilloch Herald - Wednesday 7 July 1937 gave a report from the Management Committee of the Scottish Junior League held on Friday 2 July 1937. It reported:

“The question of St Francis was discussed. The team tendered their resignation, and a new club, Greyfriars, was started in the same district and secured admission to the Central League. It is contended that St Francis and Greyfriars are one and the same club, and in contravention of Rule 13 of the Scottish Association to leave one League to join another without the sanction of the League with whom they were connected. The matter will be reported to the parent body [Scottish Junior Football Association] for investigation.”

This was duly dealt with by the SJFA and the same newspaper reported on 21 July 1937:

“At the Emergency Committee of the Scottish Junior FA in Glasgow on Wednesday night [14 July 1937], the Scottish Junior League, who objected to Greyfriars club being included in the membership of the Scottish Central League, failed to convince the delegates that the new club and St Francis were the same organisation with a change of name. No action was, therefore, taken.”

Thanks for the above, bluedragon.

The old man used to mention them but for some reason i thought they (Greyfriars) were around much earlier. Now realise he's seen them play, him being from along the road in Cumberland St and a teenager in the 1930s. Grey being the colour of habit Franciscan monks wore, clever lot in the Juniors sussing out the connection. Sounds like another League of the Cross team in origin. I've never heard of Friary Park, too late in the day for it being the Fauldhouse St/Glasgow Hibs ground or the Richmond Park site or the old Roseberry/Shawfield Juniors ground. Must have been further up Polmadie Rd.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now that we have lost Kelty Hearts from the juniors, does anyone know what the story was with Kelty Rangers?  They seem to appear in the Fife league for 65/66 but don't appear for 70/71.  Just wondering if the people who ran club went on to create the Hearts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Glenconner said:

Thanks for the above, bluedragon.

The old man used to mention them but for some reason i thought they (Greyfriars) were around much earlier. Now realise he's seen them play, him being from along the road in Cumberland St and a teenager in the 1930s. Grey being the colour of habit Franciscan monks wore, clever lot in the Juniors sussing out the connection. Sounds like another League of the Cross team in origin. I've never heard of Friary Park, too late in the day for it being the Fauldhouse St/Glasgow Hibs ground or the Richmond Park site or the old Roseberry/Shawfield Juniors ground. Must have been further up Polmadie Rd.

That connection passed over my head completely when looking at the two clubs! I have had a quick look at a few maps, etc.

St Francis Roman Catholic Church and Friary was at 403-405 Cumberland Street at the corner with Sandyfaulds Street and is now the St Francis Community Centre. Looking at today’s Google satellite view there is a football pitch opposite the Community Centre. There is also another one next to the nearby Blackfriars Primary School. From looking at a few maps from the 1930’s that area opposite the Church does not appear to have been built on. That might be the site of Friary Park rather than Polmadie, and ties in with what your Dad remembered.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, bluedragon said:

That connection passed over my head completely when looking at the two clubs! I have had a quick look at a few maps, etc.

St Francis Roman Catholic Church and Friary was at 403-405 Cumberland Street at the corner with Sandyfaulds Street and is now the St Francis Community Centre. Looking at today’s Google satellite view there is a football pitch opposite the Community Centre. There is also another one next to the nearby Blackfriars Primary School. From looking at a few maps from the 1930’s that area opposite the Church does not appear to have been built on. That might be the site of Friary Park rather than Polmadie, and ties in with what your Dad remembered.

Long time ago now but sure he mentioned Greyfriars played out at Oatlands and until you posted it i'd never heard of St Francis FC. The old fella mentioned a League of the Cross hall in Errol St, Gorbals. I'd guess Greyfriars/St Francis has orginally been a juvenile team from further back and headed down the Junior path. Certainly seems to have been a whole host of teams playing out Oatlands way back in the day. Glasgow Hibs played in a ground in Fauldhouse St for a season but the ground had been used by another team before that and again after Glasgow Hibs went defunct. Eventually the land was turned over for tenements. The only team that seems to held on was Shawfield Juniors. And the ground (Roseberry Park) lasted another 35 years in council hands.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Jambo'ness said:

Now that we have lost Kelty Hearts from the juniors, does anyone know what the story was with Kelty Rangers?  They seem to appear in the Fife league for 65/66 but don't appear for 70/71.  Just wondering if the people who ran club went on to create the Hearts.

There was a Kelty Rangers that played from 1901 until disbanding in 1929 just as the 1929/30 season was starting.

There were two clubs formed in Kelty in 1930:

Kelty Our Boys - Juvenile 1930 to 1935 before moving to Juniors.

Kelty North End Rangers – Junior

There is a suggestion that these two clubs merged and became Kelty Rangers in 1947. Their last season in the Fife County Junior Football League was 1946/47 when Our Boys finished in last place in the 18-club league and North End Rangers finished in 14th place. The new club joined the Fife County Junior Football League from the 1947/48 season and finished 19th out of 20 clubs in that first season. They improved and achieved a 3rd place finish in the 1951/52 season. They continued as Juniors up to and including the 1953/54 season before having a spell back in the Juvenile ranks. They returned to Junior football in the Fife County Junior Football League in the 1965/66 season until their final season in 1969/70.

Today’s Kelty Hearts were formed in 1975 as Juveniles and joined the Juniors in 1980. I don't know of any personnel connections between today's club and Kelty Rangers. Someone else will know I am sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/28/2017 at 08:44, bluedragon said:

Thanks for the post about Dave Marshall. That was a remarkable achievement in any era. I have a note that he joined Airdrieonians from Linlithgow Rose on 29 August 1963 and had 6½ seasons, scoring 51 league goals, at Broomfield. I also have a note, but cannot verify it, that he scored 24 goals in 27 appearances in the 1965/66 season when Airdrie won promotion from the old Second Division. Although they were second they scored 107 goals, 29 more than champions Ayr United. He had shorter spells at Cowdenbeath and Forfar before returning to Rose in June 1972.

Back in those days players went up through the ranks from juvenile through the juniors to a senior club and possibly then to a senior club in a higher league.  Nowadays it seems it works the opposite way.  The top clubs hoover up all the potential stars and drop most of them to lower seniors and the process continues down into the juniors.  That's why the Rose a couple of seasons back had only one player, I think, who hadn't played senior.

Davie Marshall didn't spend long with the Rose before he was attracting the attention of the seniors and Airdrie won his signature.  He was allowed to stay until the Rose were knocked out of the Cup, which happened to be the fourth round, so we lost him for the rest of the league fixtures.  I believe that was a standard procedure around that time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, th1stleandr0se said:

Back in those days players went up through the ranks from juvenile through the juniors to a senior club and possibly then to a senior club in a higher league.  

Here are some daft Laddie questions!

I have always thought that, on paper at least, the Juvenile-Junior-Senior structure gave an excellent route for players. I say “on paper” because I have been trying to understand the re-instatement rules governing Senior players wanting to revert back to the Juniors but have always filed it under “too difficult”!

Here is a summary of what I think:

1.      From the very early days there has been antagonism between Senior and Junior football and mostly, but not exclusively, generated from issues surrounding players moving between the grades.

2.      The resolution of the Intermediate dispute in 1931 saw a recognition of Junior contracts by Senior football, a standard £75 transfer fee was introduced and the provisional signing arrangements put in place to stop Senior clubs signing a player on the eve of a Junior Cup tie and depriving the Junior club of the player's service when they were still involved in the Cup.

3.      Junior football took a very protective stance and while they could not stop the grade being a naturally stepping stone for players on the way up they were not going to make it easy for experienced players on the way down.

4.      Re-instatement was the method of controlling the numbers of ex-Senior players returning to play Junior football. As a rule of thumb the SJFA looked favourably at young players who had moved up from the Juniors to a Senior club but were released after just a season. You were likely to be refused if you were an older ex-Senior player or had already been re-instated in a previous season, i.e. you already had two goes at Senior football.

5.      Applications for reinstatement in the 1930’s varied between 100-300 each year and a minority of those applications were accepted.

6.      These rules applied well into the 1950’s.

So here are my daft Laddie questions:

1.      Is this summary broadly on the right lines? If not I would be interested to know.

2.      What options did a player have to continue playing football if he was say 26, released by his Senior club and then his application for re-instatement to the Juniors was rejected?

3.      In the 1950’s  I have read that a Juvenile player who was signed directly by a Senior club and then did not make the grade could not then move to a Junior club on his release. In connection with this I have seen an example of such a player moving from his Juvenile club, playing  a game for a Junior club before playing for his Senior club. The Senior club was protecting the young player’s position in case things did not work out in Senior football. Does that sound correct?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At some point, you had to be registered with a Junior club prior to moving Senior if you then subsequently wanted to be re-instated.

I use the example of John Greig, often listed as being with Whitburn Juniors, but in fact never went anywhere near Central Park. He "signed" in order to be able to play Junior should he not make it in the Seniors. What the rules were surrounding this I don't know, but it was common practice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A whole number of famous players signed Junior forms and never saw the inside of a Junior ground. It was done to protect them in the event they never made it at Senior level. Plus the Junior club of choice on the day got a few quid. That's why you still here old stories of Junior chairmen/secretaries going through the front doors of Ibrox and Celtic Park and meeting the likes Bill Struth and Robert Kelly. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, th1stleandr0se said:

Davie Marshall didn't spend long with the Rose before he was attracting the attention of the seniors and Airdrie won his signature.  He was allowed to stay until the Rose were knocked out of the Cup, which happened to be the fourth round, so we lost him for the rest of the league fixtures.  I believe that was a standard procedure around that time.

By chance I came across a reference to Davie Marshall in the excellent book “Scotland in the Sixties” by Ronnie McDevitt. In recalling the World Cup qualifying match in Cyprus in 1968 he wrote:

On the day of the match Colin Stein had an unexpected reminder of his home town as the players prepared to set off from Famagusta for the match “There was a guy called Davie Marshall who played with Linlithgow Rose and went on to play for Airdrie, I always remember that his brother was one of the soldiers and he came on the team bus and said, what are you doing here? My brother should have been playing instead of you!”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another example of a player who went from Juvenille to Senior with an incidental  stop off at a Junior club was Brian Marjoribanks who had been a very successful striker in the juvenile game, He was earmarked for, I think, Hibernian but as a back-up he signed for Kilsyth and actually played in one pre-season friendly. We thought we had found a challenger for Alex Querries position but he moved up immediately. In the event he did not make it at the top level but became an extremely good anateur golfer and was for many years a sports commentator with Radio Scotland. I seem to remember that in the 50's & 60's junior clubs were limited to a maximum of two reinstatements per season and I believe that the maximum age was 26 as already stated.

Regarding players who had signed a provisional form to go Senior, I believe the rule was that as long as the junior club was still involved in the Scottish they could hold on to him. We lost Billy Wallace that way in 1958 in mid season although he did play a few more games for us after our defeat by Arniston  Rangers in the Scottish. His great friend and team mate, Jim Storrie, did remain at Kilsyth till the end of the season though. Both went on to extremely successful Senior careers although unfortunately Jim passed away a couple of years ago.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for educating me on re-instatement.

I have just been reading a debate on the pros & cons of reinstatement in the Evening Times of 28 July 1956. It was clearly a hot topic at that time. Views were sought from personalities in Junior and Senior football -  5 Junior and 3 Senior.

Tommy Walker (Hearts) and John Haddow (Clyde) were all in favour of reinstatement. They said stepping up from Junior to Senior is not always straightforward and some players may take the step too early and they should be able to return to Junior football and not go out of the game.  Tommy Walker made the point that managers can over-estimate the ability of young players and he would feel awkward if there was no reinstatement and he had forced a young player out of football by releasing him.  Jimmy McGrory (Celtic) believed if a player had to serve a two-year spell in the Juniors before stepping up then perhaps re-instatement would not be required.

The view of the Junior officials is diverse. The Vice President of the Glasgow Junior FA said he had changed his mind and was now in favour. Supporters craved instant success. Clubs are not given the time to build a team and a team recruited from amateurs and juveniles will be too young and inexperienced. A team needs the experience that re-instatement provides. The President of the West of Scotland JFA was completely against the “artificial” placement of Juvenile players with Junior clubs by Senior clubs on which there have several posts and examples. He was in favour of a player being reinstated if he had two years Junior service. The Secretary of Benburb and the President of Largs Thistle shared the same view and were completely against reinstatement as it would make players think twice before stepping up. The President of the Central League was in favour of re-instatement. Garrelburn - He was Alan Johnston of Kilsyth Rangers. He quoted  two players Kilsyth wanted to reinstate as examples of players who were far too young to be forced out of the game. They were John Bryden (20) released by Stirling Albion and Robert Bryans (19) who had played for Stirling Albion and Dunfermline.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...