My daft laddie Junior football questions

[aberfeldy]

If I was alive in 1934 I'd be able to tell you why we're called Lochore Welfare even though we play in Crosshill

[garrellburn]

7 hours ago, bluedragon said:

In previewing a Dennistoun Waverley v Bo’ness United Junior Cup tie on 7 February 1947 the Bo'ness Journal, and Linlithgow Advertiser said:

“The Dennistoun was originally a breakaway from the famous Bridgeton Waverley.”

Dennistoun Waverley initially played in the Scottish Junior League. Their first attempt to join the Central League in 1939 was “not entertained” at the Central League AGM. Their application came forward again this time at the SJFA AGM in 1940 and the Glasgow JFA delegates were told to leave the room while it was discussed. This caused a stooshie. They were eventually admitted in 1941. On the face of it the breakaway may not have been amicable.

Didn't know Mr Robertson was involved as far back as that. He is 'never entertained' by anything raised at the meetings in my experience.

[Sandgrownun]

On ‎19‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 10:30, bluedragon said:

I still cannot find where I heard about the origins of Shotts Bon Accord's name. However, I believe the club was a Juvenile club after the Second World War before moving up to the Juniors in 1950. Hannah Park lies virtually at the end of the long street named Bon Accord Crescent. It sounds as if the club may have taken its name from the street that pre-dated the football club. Perhaps the street has the mining origins? 

I attempted to research this some time ago but was thwarted after being told by the Mitchell Library that the records for the building of Bon Accord Crescent were in the Motherwell Heritage Centre who then maintained, 'No, they were transferred to the Mitchell some time ago.' Impasse, stymie, dead-end, checkmate.

I had been looking to find out why Bon Accord had been chosen as the name and it soon became clear that the crescent begat the football club which was founded in 1944 (they never played anything other than as Juniors though) although fundraising took six long years before the club was ready to start playing.

An elderly aunt of mine remembered moving to 70 Bon Accord Crescent (as a newbuild) in the early thirties but the buildings closest to Hannah Park were actually constructed in the early part of the century. The earliest mention I found was of a Lithuanian miner seeking British nationality in about 1906. His address was given as 4 Bon Accord Crescent.

I have also read various historical accounts of pits in the Shotts area and have never come across anything that would suggest the street is named after a mine.

As I head for my seventies, I suspect I'll never find the real answer but I'm beginning to assume there must be an Aberdeen connection - maybe an Aberdonian businessman who relocated to Shotts in the late 19th century and took on a role in local politics? Fanciful perhaps but I have time on my hands these days.

 

[Glenconner]

What's being debated is the add ons rather than the geographical location. Glasgow Perthshire is easily answered by being an offshoot of the Glasgow Perthshire Society. It wouldn't take much to figure out Kirkintilloch Rob Roy or Campsie Black Watch. Doubt we'll ever know why Waverley was added on to Bridgeton.

[bluedragon]

46 minutes ago, Sandgrownun said:

I attempted to research this some time ago but was thwarted after being told by the Mitchell Library that the records for the building of Bon Accord Crescent were in the Motherwell Heritage Centre who then maintained, 'No, they were transferred to the Mitchell some time ago.' Impasse, stymie, dead-end, checkmate.

I had been looking to find out why Bon Accord had been chosen as the name and it soon became clear that the crescent begat the football club which was founded in 1944 (they never played anything other than as Juniors though) although fundraising took six long years before the club was ready to start playing.

An elderly aunt of mine remembered moving to 70 Bon Accord Crescent (as a newbuild) in the early thirties but the buildings closest to Hannah Park were actually constructed in the early part of the century. The earliest mention I found was of a Lithuanian miner seeking British nationality in about 1906. His address was given as 4 Bon Accord Crescent.

I have also read various historical accounts of pits in the Shotts area and have never come across anything that would suggest the street is named after a mine.

As I head for my seventies, I suspect I'll never find the real answer but I'm beginning to assume there must be an Aberdeen connection - maybe an Aberdonian businessman who relocated to Shotts in the late 19th century and took on a role in local politics? Fanciful perhaps but I have time on my hands these days.

 

Thanks for that and explaining the long period from formation of the club to playing. I see on a map that Dee Street is a continuation of Bon Accord Crescent and so that supports the Aberdonian connection idea. The only Bon Accord mine I found was in Australia!

[bluedragon]

52 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

What's being debated is the add ons rather than the geographical location. Glasgow Perthshire is easily answered by being an offshoot of the Glasgow Perthshire Society. It wouldn't take much to figure out Kirkintilloch Rob Roy or Campsie Black Watch. Doubt we'll ever know why Waverley was added on to Bridgeton.

I think what I have learnt is that team suffixes are not as obvious as they seem at first sight. So Kirkintilloch Rob Roy were named after a defunct curling club and the Juvenile club Campsie Black Watch took their name from a Junior club of the same name that played between 1891 and 1898 about 50 years before the Juvenile club. was formed. Undoubtedly the source of the names are Sir Walter Scott’s hero and the Army Regiment respectively but it is not a direct link.

[Glenconner]

4 minutes ago, bluedragon said:

I think what I have learnt is that team suffixes are not as obvious as they seem at first sight. So Kirkintilloch Rob Roy were named after a defunct curling club and the Juvenile club Campsie Black Watch took their name from a Junior club of the same name that played between 1891 and 1898 about 50 years before the Juvenile club. was formed. Undoubtedly the source of the names are Sir Walter Scott’s hero and the Army Regiment respectively but it is not a direct link.

I'm still trying to find out the English rugby club that gave it's monicker to a Senior club from Govan.

[Hillonearth]

20 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

I'm still trying to find out the English rugby club that gave it's monicker to a Senior club from Govan.

Cheltenham Sevco?

I'm sure I once read somewhere the team they actually got their name from was Swindon Rangers FC - back then the distinction between rugby and football was a bit blurred, hence the likes of West of Scotland FC and Hull FC dating from around that time who actually play rugby.

 

[garrellburn]

Sandgrownun,

I attempted to research this some time ago but was thwarted after being told by the Mitchell Library that the records for the building of Bon Accord Crescent were in the Motherwell Heritage Centre who then maintained, 'No, they were transferred to the Mitchell some time ago.' Impasse, stymie, dead-end, checkmate.

I had been looking to find out why Bon Accord had been chosen as the name and it soon became clear that the crescent begat the football club which was founded in 1944 (they never played anything other than as Juniors though) although fundraising took six long years before the club was ready to start playing.

 

I also visited the Motherwell Heritage centre fairly recently to do somew research on one of our players, Ian Goodall, who had gone to Motherwell in the late 1940's, didn't get much on him but got diverted (as you do in these places) with loads of stuff on other Lanarkshire clubs.

Shotts had a profusion of football clubs in the interwar period and even earlier. The ones that there is some infirmation on include Shamrock - late 19th century; Bluebell - around 1924; Battlefield - junior 1928-32;  Empire - 1930, possibly a cafe team; Victoria - early 1940's. A lot of info and photos of Bon Accord cup winning team of 1958.

Also some stuff on other junior clubs such as Douglasdale and Douglas Water Thistle. Its out there, just takes a bit of digging to find it.

[Glenconner]

Thanks for the info on Dennistoun Waverley being a Junior Club. I was under the impression they were a Juvenile club, i also didn't realise they had a home ground in Haghill? So who was the team that played in Carntyne Dog Track?

[bluedragon]

2 hours ago, Glenconner said:

Thanks for the info on Dennistoun Waverley being a Junior Club. I was under the impression they were a Juvenile club, i also didn't realise they had a home ground in Haghill? So who was the team that played in Carntyne Dog Track?

Bridgeton Waverley

Bridgeton Waverley were the team that had a short stay at Carntyne dog track.

I had a quick look at some Glasgow history sites to see if, by chance, there were any hints on the origins of their name. Sadly not but I found this interesting quote about the early days of the club that gives a location of where some of the early players came from.

“Later some of the older boys who frequented “Stewarts Corner” assumed control of affairs and a few of the founders were given the order of the back seat.”

Dennistoun Waverley

I have had a closer look at the story of their first few years. Here it is.

The first mention I can find of Dennistoun Waverley is the club preparing for their first season in Junior football in 1939/40. They had secured a ten-year lease on their Haghill ground. Officials were John Murphy (President), R Reid (Vice President), DB M’Donald (Treasurer), W Killen (General Secretary) and Andy Moffatt (Team Secretary).  They had also appointed a social club convener (Mr Downs) who had previously worked at Third Lanark. They engaged ex-Bridgeton Waverley people Archie McPhee and Willie Curle as (I think!) trainer and groundsman respectively. The club’s application to join the SJFA was agreed at the SJFA AGM on 17 June 1939. They also joined the Junior North Eastern Association

On Thursday 29 June 1939 Dennistoun Waverley, Johnstone Victoria, Vale Emmett, Uddington United and Harp all applied to join the Central League as there were three vacancies created by Duntocher Hibs, Springfield Athletic and Greyfriars finishing bottom in the previous season. These three clubs all applied for re-election and were successful. However, Dennistoun quickly got fixed up in the Scottish Junior League for the new season.

Although the club had staged a Juvenile Tournament on their new ground, their first league match was on Saturday 29 July 1939 when they entertained Rothesay Royal Victoria. They did well in their first season winning the West section of the two-section Scottish Junior League and taking eventual Champions Forth Rangers to a replay in the play-off.

They had another go at applying to join the Central League for the 1940/41 season but this time they were a SJFA member club applying to change leagues. More complicated! The application was agreed at the Central League AGM on 2 August 1940 but was subject to the agreement of the SJFA at its AGM on 7 August. At this AGM the Central League delegates, who were in favour of Dennistoun and Royal Albert being admitted, were told to leave the room while a vote was taken. Neither club was admitted. The Glasgow JFA then weighed in at their own meeting on 12 August the outcome of which was a protest to the SJFA as to how the parent body had handled the consideration of the applications.

Dennistoun Waverley then took their protest to the Emergency Committee of the SFA on 21 August. The SFA turned the protest down. Dennistoun were incensed. They felt the only way for the club to continue to play during the War was to join the Central League as the Scottish Junior League was likely to have to close down (which it did) for the duration of the War. However, the Glasgow JFA had not finished! They were not impressed with the SJFA merely saying that their “protest had been noted” and decided to lodge another one. Without a league membership Dennistoun were forced to survive on friendlies and cup matches. Eventually at the Central League AGM on 27 June 1941 the club was admitted for the 1941/42 season. They remained in the Central League for the remainder of its existence when it resigned during the 1968/69 season.

[Dreghorn]

Thank you for your interesting post on these old clubs.

Can you tell me what colours Dennistoun wore?  Sometimes they are listed as Red, others Yellow and Black.

Do you have any old photos of the side or their ground?

[bluedragon]

1 hour ago, Dreghorn said:

Thank you for your interesting post on these old clubs.

Can you tell me what colours Dennistoun wore?  Sometimes they are listed as Red, others Yellow and Black.

Do you have any old photos of the side or their ground?

Here are a couple of links:

Haghill Park

http://nonleaguescotland.org.uk/Lost/dennistoun.htm

Team

http://urbanglasgow.co.uk/archive/dennistoun-waverley-fc-early-1950s__o_t__t_3552.html

I am afraid I cannot help on the colours as in the team photographs I have seen (all helpfully in black & white!) there have been several different designs and what look like different colours. Can anyone else help?

[dreggin]

Spoiler

 

I can see that Haghill Park was an ash park and that remembered me, the other ash parks were Pollok, Perthshire and St Rochs but there must be other ash parks but my old brain is not working correctly

[Viewparker]

2 hours ago, Dreghorn said:

Thank you for your interesting post on these old clubs.

Can you tell me what colours Dennistoun wore?  Sometimes they are listed as Red, others Yellow and Black.

Do you have any old photos of the side or their ground?

I was taken to see one of my first games of football to see Dennistoun Waverley in the mid 60s. The park was at the bottom of Birkenshaw Street and I'm sure they played in red and white. Over 50 years ago but I'm sure over 50,000 attended or maybe it was 50. 

[garrellburn]

1 hour ago, dreggin said:

  Hide contents

 

I can see that Haghill Park was an ash park and that remembered me, the other ash parks were Pollok, Perthshire and St Rochs but there must be other ash parks but my old brain is not working correctly

Ashfield (of course), Shawfield, Strathclyde, Maryhill Harp, possibly St Anthony & Glencairn were all either ash or hard packed earth with no more than a grass fringe round the edges. I'm going back almost sixty years so memory might be a little bit unreliable.

Does anyone remember Carfin Emeralds, not a junior side, but a very interesting history?

[bluedragon]

Just to round off the Dennistoun Waverley story their last match was on 16 November 1968 and it was a 3:5 home defeat by Ashfield in a Central League match.  The club’s decision to resign was reported on 22 November citing financial issues and not wanting to get further into debt. They made it clear that their decision was final and that there would be no return. The club’s match secretary at the end was David Moffatt, son of the club’s first match secretary.

[Glenconner]

So Bridgeton Waverley, Dennistoun Waverley, Parkhead Juniors, Shawfield and Strathclyde all went defunct in the 1960s?

[Lokloyal]

And tying in to the decline of Cities as junior football areas when the small rural villages of Fife and Ayrshire  then started to come to the fore.

[bluedragon]

5 hours ago, Glenconner said:

So Bridgeton Waverley, Dennistoun Waverley, Parkhead Juniors, Shawfield and Strathclyde all went defunct in the 1960s?

Maryhill Harp can also be added to that list and beyond the 1960's Bailleston. Here is my list:

Shawfield (1960), Bridgeton Waverley (1962), Parkhead (1963), Strathclyde (1965), Dennistoun Waverley (1968), Maryhill Harp (1967) and Baillieston (2005).