Junior football, what is the future?

[newcastle broon]

14 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

 

Is there rules to say I need to back it up because some nobody demands it? You know as well as I do that this is how it happened, however as ever you want to have a go at me rather than address the points under discussion.

You're the guy that wanted your club to go Junior remember cos you were fed up with the LL, so I'm normally at a loss what you're on about half the time.

 

Junior aye cause there's more teams local. Common sense sees that 

Would I go junior now? Na the LL is going from strength to strength, like you said what if one of the likelier bigger outfits (bigger than Kelty)  were to make the move 

Not having a go ya sensitive  wee soul just you keep harping on aboot the LL withoot the facts to back it up. 

 

[Burnie_man]

11 minutes ago, The Mantis said:

I doubt there's anybody else you can lump in with Spartans despite insinuating that some people 'as good as said'. I know our secretary at Whitehill (who's up with all the Hampden bigwigs etc) was excited by the idea of the LL being on a par with the HL and giving us a more professional setup to compete in but nothing more sinister than that.

For clubs in the East of Scotland League at that time, it was undoubtedly a forward step, no debate there.  The point I was making was that the option was there to bring in the LL with a seasons notice with promotion to the SFL, but certain clubs/people pushed for it to be implemented the following season ie at 6 weeks notice in the full knowledge that there was no way at all that any Junior club would be on board with that, and that turned out to be the case. Hence we had a 12 team? LL, no Junior clubs, and no promotion spot in the first season, basically a glorified East of Scotland Premier.

[Burnie_man]

29 minutes ago, Fifes Elite Force said:

I think so as well tbh. Bo' ness are a much more established name in the super league so I think it will raise more heads. Additionally I don't think Kelty moving is really a big deal to the Bonnyriggs and Linlithgows in the league but once Bo'ness jump ship I think those sorts of clubs will consider jumping if they aren't already considering it. I don't see any of the other fife teams really being up for it in the short or medium term.

I think we all agree that the SJFA are really not doing enough generally to try and find a way to modernise the junior side of the game and without doing something soon really risk losing quite allot of their bigger teams. I suppose their argument might be if there is a pyramid set up with promotion they would lose these teams anyway that way. Maybe the best thing for them to do is agree or at least put forward a proposal to some sort of playoff system similar to the one the League 2 and lowland league have and let the east and west champions fight it out and then playoff against a team to get into their respective professional league above. At least then they can say the route is there rather than risk a bunch of resignations over the course of a few years which could have a large impact on sponsorship etc.

 

I think the time for sticking heads in the sand has already gone tbh and really need to be on the front foot to try and influence what comes next or be left out of the loop potentially losing clubs/cash

 

Agreed. The Juniors as an organisation will die a slow death if they continue to stick their heads in the sand.  Linlithgow are already fully Licenced, if Bo’ness go as I think they will, then that will have them thinking about where everything is headed, a lot of fresh blood is on their committee these days and not all of them think like their predecessors.

However, that’s only in the East.  It doesn’t look likely that any West clubs will take the plunge into the SoSFL (rightly so IMO) and will stick with what they have unless there is a realistic avenue for them to become involved.

Here’s a scenario, would the East Region (or a bloc of Lothians based clubs) consider breaking away, merge with the EoSFL and join the Pyramid? The SJFA top table is now dominated by West Region officials...

[Fifes Elite Force]

34 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Agreed. The Juniors as an organisation will die a slow death if they continue to stick their heads in the sand.  Linlithgow are already fully Licenced, if Bo’ness go as I think they will, then that will have them thinking about where everything is headed, a lot of fresh blood is on their committee these days and not all of them think like their predecessors.

However, that’s only in the East.  It doesn’t look likely that any West clubs will take the plunge into the SoSFL (rightly so IMO) and will stick with what they have unless there is a realistic avenue for them to become involved.

Here’s a scenario, would the East Region (or a bloc of Lothians based clubs) consider breaking away, merge with the EoSFL and join the Pyramid? The SJFA top table is now dominated by West Region officials...

That's sort of the scenario I was alluding to which I think might happen if it continues the way it is just now and the SJFA do nothing. I think I mentioned earlier although I think the super league has been a good thing (I probably see it from a Kelty perspective) there are still plenty of junior teams (or fans at least) that don't and would be happy to go back to the regional leagues again. If a large section of super league clubs left, will there be teams that are overly fussed for taking their place long term in an East wide junior league given the clubs with traditionally bigger supports are the ones probably in the group of the ones leaving and there might be less sponsorship cash to pay for travel etc for the teams left? We could end up with no super league in the east juniors at all if the clubs remaining decide it's no longer viable. Of course this is only guess work really and until these clubs left we don't know what will happen but it's probably why the SJFA should be the ones on the front foot on this since they have the most to lose and if they aren't on the front foot they will not be the ones influencing change and will end up out the loop completely.

 

I don't know enough about the west coast teams or what their thinking is behind the whole pyramid system so I can't really comment on what they might want to do, However from a financial perspective getting into the big Scottish cup is quite lucrative and some might see entry into that as quite attractive especially if the old east junior teams start getting glamorous ties or even if they do well in the lowland league.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Fifes Elite Force

[clash city rocker]

If teams like Kelty , Bo'ness and others of similar standard Lithgae etc leave the juniors you may well see a return to regional leagues especially in East as a self preservation move. Would Super League be quite so super without those teams ?

My opinion is than no West team will leave the juniors.

[Fifes Elite Force]

7 minutes ago, clash city rocker said:

If teams like Kelty , Bo'ness and others of similar standard Lithgae etc leave the juniors you may well see a return to regional leagues especially in East as a self preservation move. Would Super League be quite so super without those teams ?

My opinion is than no West team will leave the juniors.

There does seem to be less appetite for it in the short term anyway from the west coast teams. Burnie mentioned earlier the SJFA is heavily influenced and made up of west coast people. Perhaps they are quite happy that the west coast might be unaffected by whats going on and aren't really fussed about what happens in the East which would explain why they aren't being proactive. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by Fifes Elite Force

[rednblack]

If teams like Kelty , Bo'ness and others of similar standard Lithgae etc leave the juniors you may well see a return to regional leagues especially in East as a self preservation move. Would Super League be quite so super without those teams ?
My opinion is than no West team will leave the juniors.

The west is the heart and soul of junior football is. The west area we are in is full of senior sides, bigger ones and smaller ones all crammed in an area, the vast majority of the west fans will have senior side and will enjoy both grades and what they have to offer and the thought of there junior team moving to a senior set up or climbing some pyramid means little to them what matters to them is local pride and getting one over neighbours .

[HTG]

There are enough west teams who would be interested if it were a proper pyramid. The problem is you can't deal with issues in isolation. The whole thing is a sham. The SPL and SFL took longer to think up the new name of SPFL than it took to "implement" the pyramid. I'm sure there was a UEFA driver sitting behind the sudden haste to create a semblance of a pyramid but I can't recall where I think I got that from. 

There is no intention whatsoever to do anything up north (having actually done close to f**k all). Making no provision for the massive north:south population demographic  (and therefore depth in terms of volume and standard) was confirmation that not a single f**k was given about how utterly shite this pyramid model is/was.

[Burnie_man]

13 minutes ago, rednblack said:

The west is the heart and soul of junior football is. The west area we are in is full of senior sides, bigger ones and smaller ones all crammed in an area, the vast majority of the west fans will have senior side and will enjoy both grades and what they have to offer and the thought of there junior team moving to a senior set up or climbing some pyramid means little to them what matters to them is local pride and getting one over neighbours .

C'mon, it's no different to West Lothian or Midlothian or Fife. As for the Pyramid, you do realise that for the vast majority of clubs, they'd be playing the same teams if the whole non-league set-up came together.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Burnie_man

[Hillonearth]

35 minutes ago, Fifes Elite Force said:

There does seem to be less appetite for it in the short term anyway from the west coast teams. Burnie mentioned earlier the SJFA is heavily influenced and made up of west coast people. Perhaps they are quite happy that the west coast might be unaffected by whats going on and aren't really fussed about what happens in the East which would explain why they aren't being proactive. 

I'd go further than that - there's zero appetite as things stand. Kidding on a situation is workable when it clearly isn't doesn't equal proactivity. 

The SoSL, the so-called west "feeder" has virtually no geographic congruence with the West region, consisting as it does entirely of teams from Dumfries & Galloway, with one newly-elected  Ayrshire outlier.

West Region presence in D&G? One team.

For a variety of historical reasons, there is no pre-existing non-league senior setup in the west central belt to conveniently use as a pyramid bolt-on as has been done with the EoSL; using the SoS as a makeshift one using the flawed logic of "Well, it's sort of in the west..." shows just how little understanding and care the initial concept was mooted with.

 

[Arthurlie1981]

There does seem to be less appetite for it in the short term anyway from the west coast teams. Burnie mentioned earlier the SJFA is heavily influenced and made up of west coast people. Perhaps they are quite happy that the west coast might be unaffected by whats going on and aren't really fussed about what happens in the East which would explain why they aren't being proactive. 

 

 

It's nothing to do with that at all imo. For west clubs to apply they have to go to either the SOS or the EOS. The cost of this would be horrendous plus the loss of income if joining either of these leagues. The SFA have the power to end this debate by just implementing the pyramid across the board, but they won't do that and it will always be more east centric.

 

I can't comment on the ins and out what the EOS league did or didn't do. All I know was that there was no encouragement from either the SFA or the SJFA.

 

Unless the SFA wants it to change nothing will.

[clash city rocker]

59 minutes ago, Fifes Elite Force said:

There does seem to be less appetite for it in the short term anyway from the west coast teams. Burnie mentioned earlier the SJFA is heavily influenced and made up of west coast people. Perhaps they are quite happy that the west coast might be unaffected by whats going on and aren't really fussed about what happens in the East which would explain why they aren't being proactive. 

Geographically East teams are better placed for a pyramid than West teams. It has to be seriously tempting for clubs like Bo'ness to follow Kelty. If a was a Bo'ness or Lithgae fan a would want to have a crack at it. Wish something could be done for West clubs to have the choice as it stands very much doubt any of them will take the plunge.

[Fifes Elite Force]

Fair enough folks, tbh like I said earlier I don't really know much about the west juniors and was only speculating really.

 

From a financial perspective I'm sure kelty worked out they would be better off by joining the senior set up. Obviously that could be different for the west teams

[Che Dail]

6 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

 

It's nothing to do with that at all imo. For west clubs to apply they have to go to either the SOS or the EOS. The cost of this would be horrendous plus the loss of income if joining either of these leagues. The SFA have the power to end this debate by just implementing the pyramid across the board, but they won't do that and it will always be more east centric.

 

I can't comment on the ins and out what the EOS league did or didn't do. All I know was that there was no encouragement from either the SFA or the SJFA.

 

Unless the SFA wants it to change nothing will.

The SFA is an Association of clubs, not an Authority.

If the clubs want change they need to initiate it themselves, based on what's best for them.

If the 16 West Region Super League clubs want to join the pyramid and all the benefits it would bring, they could each apply for a license and more or less create the same league they're in now.  

The obvious difference being that before a ball is kicked each season they'd receive their SFA payment and would have participation in the Scottish Cup to look forward to. 

And a fixture list.

Same principle applies to East Region clubs.

[Burnie_man]

24 minutes ago, HTG said:

There are enough west teams who would be interested if it were a proper pyramid. The problem is you can't deal with issues in isolation. The whole thing is a sham. The SPL and SFL took longer to think up the new name of SPFL than it took to "implement" the pyramid. I'm sure there was a UEFA driver sitting behind the sudden haste to create a semblance of a pyramid but I can't recall where I think I got that from. 

There is no intention whatsoever to do anything up north (having actually done close to f**k all). Making no provision for the massive north:south population demographic  (and therefore depth in terms of volume and standard) was confirmation that not a single f**k was given about how utterly shite this pyramid model is/was.

Pretty much spot on, however, we are where we are.

Junior clubs do have the power to begin to change things, either by voting as a body to seek discussions with SFA re integration (highly unlikely), or by a group of clubs taking matters into their own hands and seeking discussions directly.

What is absolutely certain is that little will change if clubs do not speak to one another on the matter, certainly not in the West, whilst in the East it may a slow drip towards the EoSFL.

[HTG]

28 minutes ago, Fifes Elite Force said:

Fair enough folks, tbh like I said earlier I don't really know much about the west juniors and was only speculating really.

 

From a financial perspective I'm sure kelty worked out they would be better off by joining the senior set up. Obviously that could be different for the west teams

To be honest, Kelty wouldn't have given the EoS league a backward glance if they could have secured their licence as junior team.  And the reason they've been able to both develop as much as they have in terms of infrastructure for a licence and to deal with the undoubted extra costs they are going to incur next season is because they have access to funding which few others can expectto get close to matching. 

Most junior teams couldn't get near to the level of investment we've seen at Kelty over the last 4 or 5 years. 

[Sheep77]

11 minutes ago, HTG said:

To be honest, Kelty wouldn't have given the EoS league a backward glance if they could have secured their licence as junior team.  And the reason they've been able to both develop as much as they have in terms of infrastructure for a licence and to deal with the undoubted extra costs they are going to incur next season is because they have access to funding which few others can expectto get close to matching. 

Most junior teams couldn't get near to the level of investment we've seen at Kelty over the last 4 or 5 years. 

Should you not be going round the arches 

[HTG]

14 minutes ago, Sheep77 said:

Should you not be going round the arches 

Stuck at Birmingham Airport waiting for Flymaybe to give a f**k. They've no idea it's Fair E'en - although you'd think they would have it on the calendar. Arseholes. 

[Dipple burn]

8 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

The SoS route isn't a viable route at all for Junior clubs, its a nonsense.

It's not a nonsense if you don't want a club to progress. No doubt the SFA would be well aware that Talbot would never entertain such a proposal so we are booted into touch. Thankfully the license is not an issue with us and we keep progressing with the facilities at Beechwood.

[Baxter's Nutmeg]

1 hour ago, Dipple burn said:

It's not a nonsense if you don't want a club to progress. No doubt the SFA would be well aware that Talbot would never entertain such a proposal so we are booted into touch. Thankfully the license is not an issue with us and we keep progressing with the facilities at Beechwood.

Talbot would love to have the license for entry into the senior Scottish Cup.