Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

15 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Who were they Burnie_man 

Oh cmon, we've been over this umpteen times before (which you don't like doing lol), although it's gratifying to see one of them is still stuck in the LL despite their SPFL ambitions.

[newcastle broon]

16 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Oh cmon, we've been over this umpteen times before (which you don't like doing lol), although it's gratifying to see one of them is still stuck in the LL despite their SPFL ambitions.

Clubs you said So Spartans and.............  

[Burnie_man]

20 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Oh cmon, we've been over this umpteen times before (which you don't like doing lol), although it's gratifying to see one of them is still stuck in the LL despite their SPFL ambitions.

.....and this isn't the thread to go over it once again. Move on.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Burnie_man

[Fifes Elite Force]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

Kelty are only interested in the Licence, if they could have remained Junior with a Licence the same as Linlithgow, that is what would have happened. They weren't interested when there were still LL places up for grabs.

I think you're probably correct as to what is attainable with regards to integrating the Juniors is concerned, a LL West and LL East is the sane way forward, but sanity is not in abundance in Scottish football.

It wouldn't take a lot just to plug the West and East Juniors in below the LL as a feeder, it raises other issues with how you then deal with the EoSFL and SoSFL but nothing that couldn't be overcome. 

This however requires clubs at the top end of the Junior game to demand it, but nobody is talking.

Has this been confirmed anywhere by a Kelty Committee member?

In terms of not applying previously I think Kelty are probably in a better place they were a few years ago facilities wise and team wise etc which probably contributed to them wanting to move up to the next level now rather than back then. Plus obviously the recent discussions about reconstruction not really being very fruitful at junior level which I think has been explained to you on other threads.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Fifes Elite Force

[Fifes Elite Force]

24 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Oh cmon, we've been over this umpteen times before (which you don't like doing lol), although it's gratifying to see one of them is still stuck in the LL despite their SPFL ambitions.

What a bitter man

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, Fifes Elite Force said:

What a bitter man

Anything interesting to contribute on the future of Junior football?

[Fifes Elite Force]

I certainly do and they have probably been suggested by the many decent posters on this forum already too.

Would you say the following quote speaks of a man that isn't bitter? Considering some of your posts on the Kelty threads it's not surprising TBF.  

"although it's gratifying to see one of them is still stuck in the LL despite their SPFL ambitions. "

 

[newcastle broon]

23 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

.....and this isn't the thread to go over it once again. Move on.

Talking to yersel 

Na Spartans you were alleging to so who were the other EoSFL clubs you state hurried along the LL in 6 weeks.... 

[Burnie_man]

21 minutes ago, Fifes Elite Force said:

I certainly do and they have probably been suggested by the many decent posters on this forum already too.

Would you say the following quote speaks of a man that isn't bitter? Considering some of your posts on the Kelty threads it's not surprising TBF.  

"although it's gratifying to see one of them is still stuck in the LL despite their SPFL ambitions. "

 

Not at all it’s just fact, and of course the ultimate irony of the situation 5/6 years ago is that if the LL hadn’t been implemented in such a hasty manner (and the SJFA hadn’t been so hostile to it), then your club Kelty could well have been part of the Pyramid long before now.

However, you may not know that given your club weren’t interested in the Pyramid at the time and only embraced it when you found out you couldn’t get your SFA Licence and remain Junior.

[Fifes Elite Force]

Considering on my first post on this thread I pointed out they probably weren't interested in the LL back then and then I listed the reasons why they probably weren't.

Just to be clear you don't take pleasure/satisfaction for a team missing out on their goals and therefore definitely not bitter?

In fairness I think consolidation in the LL is not too bad TBF, I'm not sure why you would think that's terrible achievement you can take pleasure from?

[Burnie_man]

Considering on my first post on this thread I pointed out they probably weren't interested in the LL back then and then I listed the reasons why they probably weren't.
Just to be clear you don't take pleasure/satisfaction for a team missing out on their goals and therefore definitely not bitter?
In fairness I think consolidation in the LL is not too bad TBF, I'm not sure why you would think that's terrible achievement you can take pleasure from?

I'm not going to go into the why's and wherefores of this as it's old news, but as I said above, we might all be in a better position now if it wasn't for the undue haste of the LL being pushed through and you can point the finger at various clubs and individuals at the time. I spoke with a then SFA official who as good as admitted that certain officials connected with the EoSFL wanted the LL pushed through as they could see it would be the easiest way to achieve their SFL ambitions without the challenge of big Junior clubs. It didn't quite work out like that for some who thought they were better than they were eg. Spartans.

In addition, we are where we are due in part to Junior clubs not speaking out in favour of engaging with the Pyramid. A few did but many more didn't and talked it down along with the SJFA.

It happens to this day, nothing has been learnt. Nobody is talking about the impact of the Pyramid and how it will affect the Junior game.

[Fifes Elite Force]

I didn't mention anything about the haste of the lowland league being set up or the agenda of any body back then either so I have no idea why you are replying to my post on that subject. The only thing I have done is put more meat on the bones on the reasons why Kelty probably weren't interested at the time which hasn't been drawn out when others (including yourself) have been talking about Kelty on this thread.

 

And also that you come across as bitter with one of your posts

[Fifes Elite Force]

I do agree though that clubs really need to start talking and pushing for change collectively as it seems the SJFA are quite happy the way it is.

 

The problem I think you have and its been happening since the formation of he super leagues is all the clubs have different priorities on what they want depending on their size/ambition/fanbase/budget etc. I know guys who follow some fife clubs want to go back to the old fife regional league for example which many clubs will oppose.

 

Do we know how many clubs in both super leagues favour some sort of pyramid system into the EOS or LL and how many are completely opposed?

Edited June 29, 2017 by Fifes Elite Force

[Burnie_man]

I can handle being accused of being called bitter, I’ve been called much worse  :-)

As far as Kelty are concerned, the position of the club at the time should have been immaterial to understanding the concept of a Pyramid and recognising the long term benefits. This isn’t just a Kelty thing, this applies to all Junior clubs.  I was on the committee of my club at the time, hence my attendance at most of these meetings, and despite being a lowly district league club with poor facilities we could see that this was the way forward for the game long term, some other clubs did as well, at opposite ends of the Junior game.   We could see that the Junior/Senior divide was a nonsense, as was the glass ceiling for those at the top end of the game.

Didn’t matter of course, the SJFA/Tom Johnston and those opposed to it played a blinder with tales of £150k toilet blocks, floodlights, lack of fans at EoSFL clubs, Licencing costs, travelling to Peterhead on a Tuesday night etc etc.  despite the fact that for 95% of Junior clubs nothing would change anyway, at least in the short term.

As for how many clubs are in favour/opposed, there was a survey of members a few years back, one asked if you would be interested in becoming (at that time) an SFL club, I think 27/30 responded positively.  There was another one asking clubs if they were in favour of the concept of a Pyramid, I believe that over 90% said they were (someone can correct me if my memory is failing with the exact figures). These were surveys from the SJFA. Didn’t make a blind bit of difference.

IMO, Bo’ness will be playing their last season in Junior football next season. No disrespect, but that may cause even bigger ripples than Kelty leaving.

[newcastle broon]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

 

I'm not going to go into the why's and wherefores of this as it's old news, but as I said above, we might all be in a better position now if it wasn't for the undue haste of the LL being pushed through and you can point the finger at various clubs and individuals at the time. I spoke with a then SFA official who as good as admitted that certain officials connected with the EoSFL wanted the LL pushed through as they could see it would be the easiest way to achieve their SFL ambitions without the challenge of big Junior clubs. It didn't quite work out like that for some who thought they were better than they were eg. Spartans.


 

 

So who were the various clubs and officials then Burnie?

[Burnie_man]

So who were the various clubs and officials then Burnie?

Here comes my shadow again.. I'm not telling you as I was told in confidence at the time. Spartans was the obvious one, even you saw that, and let's just say that very few in the EoSFL at the time objected to the LL being brought in at 6 weeks notice.

[newcastle broon]

8 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

 

Here comes my shadow again.. I'm not telling you as I was told in confidence at the time. Spartans was the obvious one, even you saw that, and let's just say that very few in the EoSFL at the time objected to the LL being brought in at 6 weeks notice.

 

Confidential enough for ye tae spout pish without backing it up on an Internet fitba forum 

 

[The Mantis]

17 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

 

Here comes my shadow again.. I'm not telling you as I was told in confidence at the time. Spartans was the obvious one, even you saw that, and let's just say that very few in the EoSFL at the time objected to the LL being brought in at 6 weeks notice.

 

I doubt there's anybody else you can lump in with Spartans despite insinuating that some people 'as good as said'. I know our secretary at Whitehill (who's up with all the Hampden bigwigs etc) was excited by the idea of the LL being on a par with the HL and giving us a more professional setup to compete in but nothing more sinister than that.

Edited June 29, 2017 by The Mantis

[Burnie_man]

Confidential enough for ye tae spout pish without backing it up on an Internet fitba forum [emoji38]
 

Is there rules to say I need to back it up because some nobody demands it? You know as well as I do that this is how it happened, however as ever you want to have a go at me rather than address the points under discussion.

You're the guy that wanted your club to go Junior remember cos you were fed up with the LL, so I'm normally at a loss what you're on about half the time.

[Fifes Elite Force]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

I can handle being accused of being called bitter, I’ve been called much worse  :-)

As far as Kelty are concerned, the position of the club at the time should have been immaterial to understanding the concept of a Pyramid and recognising the long term benefits. This isn’t just a Kelty thing, this applies to all Junior clubs.  I was on the committee of my club at the time, hence my attendance at most of these meetings, and despite being a lowly district league club with poor facilities we could see that this was the way forward for the game long term, some other clubs did as well, at opposite ends of the Junior game.   We could see that the Junior/Senior divide was a nonsense, as was the glass ceiling for those at the top end of the game.

Didn’t matter of course, the SJFA/Tom Johnston and those opposed to it played a blinder with tales of £150k toilet blocks, floodlights, lack of fans at EoSFL clubs, Licencing costs, travelling to Peterhead on a Tuesday night etc etc.  despite the fact that for 95% of Junior clubs nothing would change anyway, at least in the short term.

As for how many clubs are in favour/opposed, there was a survey of members a few years back, one asked if you would be interested in becoming (at that time) an SFL club, I think 27/30 responded positively.  There was another one asking clubs if they were in favour of the concept of a Pyramid, I believe that over 90% said they were (someone can correct me if my memory is failing with the exact figures). These were surveys from the SJFA. Didn’t make a blind bit of difference.

IMO, Bo’ness will be playing their last season in Junior football next season. No disrespect, but that may cause even bigger ripples than Kelty leaving.

I think so as well tbh. Bo' ness are a much more established name in the super league so I think it will raise more heads. Additionally I don't think Kelty moving is really a big deal to the Bonnyriggs and Linlithgows in the league but once Bo'ness jump ship I think those sorts of clubs will consider jumping if they aren't already considering it. I don't see any of the other fife teams really being up for it in the short or medium term.

I think we all agree that the SJFA are really not doing enough generally to try and find a way to modernise the junior side of the game and without doing something soon really risk losing quite allot of their bigger teams. I suppose their argument might be if there is a pyramid set up with promotion they would lose these teams anyway that way. Maybe the best thing for them to do is agree or at least put forward a proposal to some sort of playoff system similar to the one the League 2 and lowland league have and let the east and west champions fight it out and then playoff against a team to get into their respective professional league above. At least then they can say the route is there rather than risk a bunch of resignations over the course of a few years which could have a large impact on sponsorship etc.

 

I think the time for sticking heads in the sand has already gone tbh and really need to be on the front foot to try and influence what comes next or be left out of the loop potentially losing clubs/cash

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by Fifes Elite Force