Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

The biggest non-league senior play-off, between Cove Rangers and Spartans, drew 655 people for the second leg. I can't find a figure for the first leg but I think it was lower. There was a combined 2,300 or so at the two L2 play-off matches this season, the biggest tie in the senior non-league calendar.
At last year's Junior Cup Final there were 4,300 supporting Glenafton alone.
I find it disappointing that Talbot, Glenafton and Cumnock, three clubs far bigger and more successful than any club in the EoS or LL, get called diddy teams, as one poster here has done. Fans of the pyramid ought to ask themselves why its so unappealing to the the heartland of non-league football in Scotland, and maybe look at how to address their concerns rather than resort to name-calling.

1,400 at Kelty for league decider when the travelling support may have been 50 at best. They were getting 250/300 a game in the "diddy" league.

They alone have shown the potential that is there for many clubs regardless of what league they play in or whether they have a big sponsor or money man behind them. They have a long term plan and it appears to be working.

If they can get that level of interest in a "diddy" league, what could a Linlithgow or Talbot generate long term if they lose the Junior shackles? They already have the facilities.

[Burnsythebinman]

if its crowd sizes that count then junior league crowds aren't far off some league 2, lowland or highland league teams

[Guest]

2 hours ago, PastyMan said:

31st of April?

Sounds legit

Still taking late applications it appears.

[welshbairn]

Was there any regional breakdown of the questionnaire the SFJA ran on joining the Pyramid? I'm interested in the breakdown of the North Region clubs. 

[tombrown]

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

The biggest non-league senior play-off, between Cove Rangers and Spartans, drew 655 people for the second leg. I can't find a figure for the first leg but I think it was lower. There was a combined 2,300 or so at the two L2 play-off matches this season, the biggest tie in the senior non-league calendar.

At last year's Junior Cup Final there were 4,300 supporting Glenafton alone.

I find it disappointing that Talbot, Glenafton and Cumnock, three clubs far bigger and more successful than any club in the EoS or LL, get called diddy teams, as one poster here has done. Fans of the pyramid ought to ask themselves why its so unappealing to the the heartland of non-league football in Scotland, and maybe look at how to address their concerns rather than resort to name-calling.

There was 2.145 at the first play off.cove won 4 nil think that counted for a poor 2nd leg turn out.dont think iv'e seen a post which says the juniors in total are diddy teams.have seen it the other way around.why does the crowd seem that important its the football we watch is it not.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, tell_me_more said:

Whatiffery, I'm asking about why the pyramid leagues supposedly have a monopoly on those benefits DRS quoted.

Yes its a  shambles there's no sponsor, my team won it last year, but sponsor or not it is still the highlight of the non-league season by a country mile as will be illustrated by the attendance on sunday and the mass community involvement for the two teams involved.

The clubs are to blame as much as anyone for part of the fiasco with their insistance on playing too many cups and at the wrong time of the year.

Personally I am not against the pyramid with a few amendments to be added, but not under the impression it is the be all and end all to non league clubs.

 

Silly question I am sure but how many fans of their team in the junior cup final are concerned about what winning it brings in monetary terms to their club...its the occasion and the cup...….or have I got it wrong again.?

[Gimme]

Silly question I am sure but how many fans of their team in the junior cup final are concerned about what winning it brings in monetary terms to their club...its the occasion and the cup...….or have I got it wrong again.?

That's a fair point but there's no point chasing the dream if the club goes bust as a result, something the clubs need to consider that probably doesn't cross the mind of the majority of fans.

[Jason King]

Lets say there are 5000 people at the cup final on Sunday paying in and they pay an average of £10 each, that's £50,000 take off 20% for VAT and you have £40,000 left - what is the gate split for the clubs?

Edited May 25, 2018 by Jason King

[BoomShakalaka]

15 minutes ago, BENJI BOY said:

Silly question I am sure but how many fans of their team in the junior cup final are concerned about what winning it brings in monetary terms to their club...its the occasion and the cup...….or have I got it wrong again.?

Its all about the junior cup ....

....No community club, No better grounds, no forward thinking committees with vision but just about the junior cup.

BTW The Junior cup is important but not the sole importance which you keep referring to.

[Burnie_man]

43 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Was there any regional breakdown of the questionnaire the SFJA ran on joining the Pyramid? I'm interested in the breakdown of the North Region clubs. 

I saw something that suggested 75% of North and East said Yes, 55% of West.

[Robert James]

21 minutes ago, tombrown said:

There was 2.145 at the first play off.cove won 4 nil think that counted for a poor 2nd leg turn out.dont think iv'e seen a post which says the juniors in total are diddy teams.have seen it the other way around.why does the crowd seem that important its the football we watch is it not.

No offence to Cowdenbeath, but Cove Rangers deserved to have been promoted. Very progressive club, and a newly built ground in Aberdeen next season. Will the 2018/19 playoff be  Cove v Kelty ?

The SPFL should change the rules and automatically relegate the bottom Division 2 club each season, replaced by the HFL/SLL playoff winners. Once this is established, say 2022, the penultimate SPFL club could be paired against the HFL/SLL playoff losers.

This would further incentivise pyramid clubs (and crowds). It would also make it less difficult for relegated clubs (East Stirling), to get back to the SPFL. 

[Stag Nation]

24 minutes ago, Jason King said:

Lets say there are 5000 people at the cup final on Sunday paying in and they pay an average of £10 each, that's £50,000 take off 20% for VAT and you have £40,000 left - what is the gate split for the clubs?

16.67% for VAT, leaving £41,667. Every little helps.

[welshbairn]

Just now, Burnie_man said:

I saw something that suggested 75% of North and East said Yes, 55% of West.

I suppose it would just be removing the Junior tags from the Northern Leagues and the NRJFA for most teams, unlike the South where's there's a choice. I doubt there would be any rebels forming their own set up. The problem would be finding enough teams over the years willing and able to upgrade to HL standards, after the likes of Banks o'Dee have gone up.

[Stag Nation]

2 hours ago, tell_me_more said:

Yes its a  shambles there's no sponsor, my team won it last year, but sponsor or not it is still the highlight of the non-league season by a country mile.

Strange. In ten years of attending non-league football (Highland League and then EoS), I don't remember anyone ever mentioning Junior football, let alone their cup. And that was in the days when the final attracted real crowds.

[HTG]

2 hours ago, GordonS said:

The biggest non-league senior play-off, between Cove Rangers and Spartans, drew 655 people for the second leg. I can't find a figure for the first leg but I think it was lower. There was a combined 2,300 or so at the two L2 play-off matches this season, the biggest tie in the senior non-league calendar.

At last year's Junior Cup Final there were 4,300 supporting Glenafton alone.

I find it disappointing that Talbot, Glenafton and Cumnock, three clubs far bigger and more successful than any club in the EoS or LL, get called diddy teams, as one poster here has done. Fans of the pyramid ought to ask themselves why its so unappealing to the the heartland of non-league football in Scotland, and maybe look at how to address their concerns rather than resort to name-calling.

I only said that it risks being left behind.  I'm not saying it's there yet.  It's clearly unappealing because there is no WoS league. Set one up and watch what happens. The heartland will drop junior football - unless it's administered by junior football 

[pie n beans]

EOSL applications has been extended for another fortnight.

[Jason King]

22 minutes ago, Stag Nation said:

16.67% for VAT, leaving £41,667. Every little helps.

Ah yes, because the ticket price includes the VAT, d'oh!

[Burnie_man]

I suppose it would just be removing the Junior tags from the Northern Leagues and the NRJFA for most teams, unlike the South where's there's a choice. I doubt there would be any rebels forming their own set up. The problem would be finding enough teams over the years willing and able to upgrade to HL standards, after the likes of Banks o'Dee have gone up.

Switching from NRJFA to NoSFL would be fairly straightforward, the SJFA dont appear to care too much about the north and never have.

The sticking point is prom/rel to HFL. That would need firmed up. Given the LL requires entry licence only and not floodlights I think the HL need to relax that rule to get things working, maybe give 3 years dispensation to promoted clubs to get them in place.

There appears to be the will to join the pyramid according to the survey results.

[Robert James]

22 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I suppose it would just be removing the Junior tags from the Northern Leagues and the NRJFA for most teams, unlike the South where's there's a choice. I doubt there would be any rebels forming their own set up. The problem would be finding enough teams over the years willing and able to upgrade to HL standards, after the likes of Banks o'Dee have gone up.

IMO the SJFA needs to combine the North & Tayside/Perthshire clubs into one combined region.   If accepted by the PWG/Highland League clubs (?) it would provide a much stronger northern pyramid feeder league, and give a better balanced structure overall.

Junior club Montrose Roselea voluntarily transferred from the East to the North Region.

[welshbairn]

13 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

 

Switching from NRJFA to NoSFL would be fairly straightforward, the SJFA dont appear to care too much about the north and never have.

The sticking point is prom/rel to HFL. That would need firmed up. Given the LL requires entry licence only and not floodlights I think the HL need to relax that rule to get things working, maybe give 3 years dispensation to promoted clubs to get them in place.

There appears to be the will to join the pyramid according to the survey results.

 

Unless you cut the HL down to under 14 and abolish the Cups there will be a need for midweek games, especially in a bad winter.  I'm hugely against that. Better would be some collective and central fund to help subsidise essential upgrades for the Superleague Champions. One up. one down and no play offs or it would be too expensive. 

Edited May 25, 2018 by welshbairn