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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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I realise now I used "part-time team" in the first response. But my meaning was only intended about the club due to the support and existing infrastructure.
I would never assume a club gaining promotion from a lower league would be able to compete without significant turnover in squad. Especially multiple leagues that Talbot would have to go through.
Even if I was daft enough to think the current squad was capable of such a feat as being competitive in League One, there would have to be the awareness of at best 4-5 years just to get there which would mean turnover in the squad as you can't beat time.


I hope everyone joins the pyramid, we’ve had a few shocking seasons where we’ve been in and around the bottom of League 2 but I don’t think we’ll ever be in any bother of dropping out the league and I would like to see it all freshened up, would like to see a strongish looking 5th tier in comparison to what it is now too.

If Cowden had been relegated into a league containing Kelty/Linlithgow/Bo’ness/Talbot or whoever I’m sure they wouldn’t have been as worried about relegation. Everyone would find their level.

It would give more scope to so many teams as to where their ceiling would be. Brechin/Cowden and Alloa have all managed to get into the championship on shite crowds, imagine a Kelty or whatever in the same league as a club like Dundee United or whoever.

Be class for them.
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1 hour ago, virginton said:

The town of Ayr has continually failed to put a credible senior team together for over 100 years; quite why anyone expects one of their county's bumpkin villages to do any better form tier 7 or 8 is a mystery.

Unlike Morton we've never played in the bottom tier of the SFL/SPFL, And we've been to a major cup final in my lifetime, as well as a couple of minor ones. And we've never lost 10 goals to Hamilton. 

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30 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

 


I hope everyone joins the pyramid, we’ve had a few shocking seasons where we’ve been in and around the bottom of League 2 but I don’t think we’ll ever be in any bother of dropping out the league and I would like to see it all freshened up, would like to see a strongish looking 5th tier in comparison to what it is now too.

If Cowden had been relegated into a league containing Kelty/Linlithgow/Bo’ness/Talbot or whoever I’m sure they wouldn’t have been as worried about relegation. Everyone would find their level.

It would give more scope to so many teams as to where their ceiling would be. Brechin/Cowden and Alloa have all managed to get into the championship on shite crowds, imagine a Kelty or whatever in the same league as a club like Dundee United or whoever.

Be class for them.

It's coming eventually, everything that's happened in the East of Scotland has opened it up. Clydebank are going senior again as well and others in the West will follow.

Other clubs that I can think of that have reached Tier 2 having been a fairly recent Tier 4 club and aren't full-time, Dumbarton and Stirling Albion. There are clubs outwith the SPFL that can replicate those type of feats. Doesn't mean it will happen of course, but there's the potential for it and that's why I would like to see the pyramid continue to grow.

EDIT:

Past ten seasons small part time clubs getting promoted to the First Division/Championship and their attendances:

Alloa - 643  (2018 Playoff), 551 (2013 Playoff)

Brechin City - 429 (2017 Playoff)

Cowdenbeath - 469 (2012 Champion), 427 (2010 Playoff)

Dumbarton - 657  (2012 Playoff)

Stirling Albion - 624 (2010 Champion)

 

Edited by FairWeatherFan
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39 minutes ago, RedEd said:

Unlike Morton we've never played in the bottom tier of the SFL/SPFL, And we've been to a major cup final in my lifetime, as well as a couple of minor ones. And we've never lost 10 goals to Hamilton. 

No you haven't, because the League Cup is not a major trophy. Of which you have won none and never will. And have spent fully half of the period since the four league system came into place in the 1970s slumming it in the seaside leagues. Founded in 1910 because the original two clubs in the town were stinking out Scottish football, Ayr United are Scottish football's oldest and least successful franchise club. 

Gutted for you. 

 

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No you haven't, because the League Cup is not a major trophy. Of which you have won none and never will. And have spent fully half of the period since the four league system came into place in the 1970s slumming it in the seaside leagues. Founded in 1910 because the original two clubs in the town were stinking out Scottish football, Ayr United are Scottish football's oldest and least successful franchise club. 
Gutted for you. 
 


You tell them VT

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No you haven't, because the League Cup is not a major trophy. Of which you have won none and never will. And have spent fully half of the period since the four league system came into place in the 1970s slumming it in the seaside leagues. Founded in 1910 because the original two clubs in the town were stinking out Scottish football, Ayr United are Scottish football's oldest and least successful franchise club. 
Gutted for you. 
 
Of course it's a major trophy.
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2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I don't think most Talbot fans think it, which is one of the reasons why most on this thread prefer to stay Junior. Everyone else simply looks at them as being one of the best part-time teams in the country. That's enough to get them to League One, possibly the Championship. Then all you have to do is throw some money at it like a Ross County or Gretna.

They're not even close to being one of the best part-time teams in the country at the moment. Looking at it realistically, their best possible outcome would be to become a Brechin-type permadiddy outfit in the lower leagues, but that's a long way off and would take a lot of luck and consistent good management. The greater potential for clubs to become credible national clubs surely lies in the East region; the demographics of a place like Linlithgow strongly suggest that a decent senior team could establish itself there. But given that the city of Aberdeen has still failed to get even two clubs into the national setup even that is likely to be a long way off. 

If the (non-Kelty) juniors were thrown in tomorrow directly beneath the Lowland League then I wouldn't back any of them to be in the national leagues by 2030, at least under the current play-off structure. 

Edited by vikingTON
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It's coming eventually, everything that's happened in the East of Scotland has opened it up. Clydebank are going senior again as well and others in the West will follow.
Other clubs that I can think of that have reached Tier 2 having been a fairly recent Tier 4 club and aren't full-time, Dumbarton and Stirling Albion. There are clubs outwith the SPFL that can replicate those type of feats. Doesn't mean it will happen of course, but there's the potential for it and that's why I would like to see the pyramid continue to grow.
EDIT:
Past ten seasons small part time clubs getting promoted to the First Division/Championship and their attendances:
Alloa - 643  (2018 Playoff), 551 (2013 Playoff)
Brechin City - 429 (2017 Playoff)
Cowdenbeath - 469 (2012 Champion), 427 (2010 Playoff)
Dumbarton - 657  (2012 Playoff)
Stirling Albion - 624 (2010 Champion)
 


Dumbarton and Stirling crowds are usually decent for part time, Alloa’s are shite though.

That figure really inflated by visits from Ayr and Raith. Infact you could take about 70 off it if you were to just take away their last game against Ayr. If you were to look at a Saturday home fixture against somebody like Stranraer you’d see a more accurate figure of their home support.

But aye, if Alloa/Brechin and Cowden can do it no reason why a few clubs outwith the leagues couldn’t do it now. Although it would be very tough. The Cowden team looking back was just ridiculous, some cracking players.
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4 minutes ago, virginton said:

They're not even close to being one of the best part-time teams in the country at the moment. Looking at it realistically, their best possible outcome would be to become a Brechin-type permadiddy outfit in the lower leagues, but that's a long way off and would take a lot of luck and consistent good management. The greater potential for clubs to become credible national clubs surely lies in the East region; the demographics of a place like Linlithgow strongly suggest that a decent senior team could establish itself there. But given that the city of Aberdeen has still failed to get even two clubs into the national setup even that is likely to be a long way off. 

If the (non-Kelty) juniors were thrown in tomorrow directly beneath the Lowland League then I wouldn't back any of them to be in the national leagues by 2030, at least under the current play-off structure. 

You'd not back Linlithgow, Bonnyrigg or Pollok to beat someone like Albion Rovers or Edinburgh City once over the next 12 years? 

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17 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

You'd not back Linlithgow, Bonnyrigg or Pollok to beat someone like Albion Rovers or Edinburgh City once over the next 12 years? 

First they'd have to get into the Lowland League, which restricts the flow of entrants to one or possibly two in any given season. If any of those clubs struggle with the step up then you're down one candidate already. Then they'd have to win the Lowland League; which is not a highly likely occurrence at least in the short term. Then they'd have to win a two-legged play-off against whichever souped-up village outfit stacked with ex-senior professionals wins the Highland League. And only then would they get the chance to beat a national league side; the fact that even a statistically woeful Cowdenbeath side haven't been flushed down the toilet two years in succession points to that not being an easy task.  I think it's quite likely that many of the strongest  initial entrants from the Junior game would run out of steam, pick up key injuries/suspensions and fall short before the middle of May. 

The number and difficulty of the hurdles placed before any of those teams is greater than most people assume. I wouldn't put money on that outcome at evens odds. 

 

Edited by vikingTON
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26 minutes ago, virginton said:

First they'd have to get into the Lowland League, which restricts the flow of entrants to one or possibly two in any given season. If any of those clubs struggle with the step up then you're down one candidate already. Then they'd have to win the Lowland League; which is not a highly likely occurrence at least in the short term. Then they'd have to win a two-legged play-off against whichever souped-up village outfit stacked with ex-senior professionals wins the Highland League. And only then would they get the chance to beat a national league side; the fact that even a statistically woeful Cowdenbeath side haven't been flushed down the toilet two years in succession points to that not being an easy task.  I think it's quite likely that many of the strongest  initial entrants from the Junior game would run out of steam, pick up key injuries/suspensions and fall short before the middle of May. 

The number and difficulty of the hurdles placed before any of those teams is greater than most people assume. I wouldn't put money on that outcome at evens odds.

You disqualified Kelty from discussion (even though they haven't been a Junior club for the past season), presumably because you think they have a shot at getting into the SPFL. Otherwise what would be the point of excluding them? So Kelty can do it, but no other Junior side can achieve the lofty goal of playing national football in the next 12 years.

And while I admit the current format isn't ideal for promotion to the SPFL, it's likely to be a format that will change to make it more likely. Hopefully it won't take until the 2030s for that to be true mind you.

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30 minutes ago, virginton said:

First they'd have to get into the Lowland League, which restricts the flow of entrants to one or possibly two in any given season. If any of those clubs struggle with the step up then you're down one candidate already. Then they'd have to win the Lowland League; which is not a highly likely occurrence at least in the short term. Then they'd have to win a two-legged play-off against whichever souped-up village outfit stacked with ex-senior professionals wins the Highland League. And only then would they get the chance to beat a national league side; the fact that even a statistically woeful Cowdenbeath side haven't been flushed down the toilet two years in succession points to that not being an easy task.  I think it's quite likely that many of the strongest  initial entrants from the Junior game would run out of steam, pick up key injuries/suspensions and fall short before the middle of May. 

The number and difficulty of the hurdles placed before any of those teams is greater than most people assume. I wouldn't put money on that outcome at evens odds. 

 

At last some reality . . So far 1 club has made it into the basement off Scottish football league and they struggle to remain  outside the relegation play offs. IT'S A MASSIVE LEAP . .EVEN GREATER TO START CLIMBING THE SCOTTISH LÈAGUE . We don't give league 1&2 clubs enough credit .they are miles above juniors best clubs ( and I genuinely believe the best juniors are better than the best lowland league) CUE THE DELUDED BULLIES 

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11 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

It was a lovely night at the Livingston game last night, should be nice tomorrow for our last home game as Juniors. Free entry to mark the occasion as well so more money for pies and a cornetto.

Hope the club don't regret giving up the £27.50.

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54 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

You disqualified Kelty from discussion (even though they haven't been a Junior club for the past season), presumably because you think they have a shot at getting into the SPFL. Otherwise what would be the point of excluding them? So Kelty can do it, but no other Junior side can achieve the lofty goal of playing national football in the next 12 years.

If an obvious front-runner doesn't emerge in either regional setup next season then they'll be well-placed to do so. Their decision to jump ship from the Juniors at an earlier date was sound and their timing of arrival in tier 5 is very favourable for them - it's likely to be their best shot at it. It will be far tougher for other clubs to repeat the trick though, as at least one Lowland League side will build a capable team for a while or the Lowland League winners will have to deal with yet another slushed-up, Inverness/Ross County tribute act from the Highland League. To get through each of those obstacles and then beat a national team - which has won three out of four ties so far - isn't so much a lofty goal as an uphill struggle for any club. 

Quote

And while I admit the current format isn't ideal for promotion to the SPFL, it's likely to be a format that will change to make it more likely. Hopefully it won't take until the 2030s for that to be true mind you.

I'm in favour of automatic relegation and a play-off for the 9th placed side, but there's not a chance of it happening until an even notionally 'big' club  from the national senior game finds itself marooned in the regional levels below. The only reason why play-offs were introduced to the bottom two national divisions was because Partick Thistle got relegated into a Second Division with Gretna and Morton in 2005 - the aim was as much to give 9th placed teams in the leagues another chance to stop 'big' teams from going down in the future (and the sorting of the divisions now suggests that it has broadly worked).  No such issue has arisen at the bottom of the national game - East Stirlingshire haven't been missed by anyone; Montrose or Cowdenbeath going down wouldn't have been the catalyst for change either. If Clyde or some other outfit with even faded delusions of grandeur and lots of media pals fall victim then there'll be an immediate push to increase the available promotion spots - but I don't think that's likely to happen before 2030 either.

Changes to the national tiers of the game will inevitably happen but they'll take much longer than most people are assuming. 

Edited by vikingTON
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Got to honest guys.some people on this thread seem more determined to slag. insult. and abuse. People who's clubs have moved or are open to move to the pyramid.it sort of sums up the thread

The juniors what is the future             

           suppose i will be next.

 

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2 minutes ago, tombrown said:

Got to honest guys.some people on this thread seem more determined to slag. insult. and abuse. People who's clubs have moved or are open to move to the pyramid.it sort of sums up the thread

The juniors what is the future             

           suppose i will be next.

Like Marmite some subjects are just divisive.   There's probably 45% for, 45% against and 10% probably think we are talking about building actual pyramids inside junior football grounds.  

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