Junior football, what is the future?

[pumphy_man]

59 minutes ago, daleboy1969 said:

Think the armadale chaps are pointing out facts .the winners of super leagues and junior Scottish cup qualify for Scottish cup participation thru merit .clubs joining leagues knowing ( with the exception of kelty and bonnyrigg) they could never win and there for never be able to compete .join another association , seek sfa entry level membership , sit mid table somewhere looking forward to 1 game per season .all the best and remember where you were a few years ago .the organised mass emigration has shown a clear contempt for sporting integrity turning the east regions season into a farce . I feel for the pumpherston players who have worked superbly thru this season for nothing . ENJOY YOUR FUTURE AWAY FROM JUNIOR FOOTBALL .

There's still a league title to win as consolation prize

[Guest]

I think it's fine for people to feel frustrated with the current situation, leading to being angry. But most of this is in the direction of the leavers who are moving to the eosfl.

This decision would not have been one made overnight and as I said many of the clubs, regardless of current 'on field success' have been working towards this for years, with a view to integrating their local community and having a hub where young people can go from 4 to 40 playing for the same club - not taking the simple let's throw all our money onto a park to win everything approach. 

There does not appear to be any animosity towards the juniors, and in fact most have paid tribute to the junior association for their efforts over the years in their official statements. 

What has happened though, for whatever reason, is the juniors missed an opportunity many years ago to integrate as they now apparently wish to. However this will have to be negotiated and most likely won't look like it did all that time ago. Yes it is feasible that teams will not gain anything by winning their league this year, and that is sad actually. But it is most definitely not the fault of those clubs moving to the eosfl, it is simply a consequence of the situation. 

To decry individuals and clubs for this isn't clever and does nothing to further any healthy debate on matters, its has quite the opposite reaction actually. 

[Gimme]

The one thing that seems to be missed time and time again is that without these clubs deciding to leave the SJFA would never have taken the steps it has to attempt to integrate into the pyramid. It would be fair to say that things would simply have continued ad infinitum until someone stuck their head above the parapet or a change of personnel at the top of the tree.

[Jason King]

11 minutes ago, daleboy1969 said:

1.Easy .answered by all defectors at east region meeting .constant reference to another ex junior club and financial windfalls .

Not all of the defectors, dear god how juvenile that sounds, were at the last east region meeting - you are telling porky pies.

[bendan]

13 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

 

This decision would not have been one made overnight and as I said many of the clubs, regardless of current 'on field success' have been working towards this for years, with a view to integrating their local community and having a hub where young people can go from 4 to 40 playing for the same club - not taking the simple let's throw all our money onto a park to win everything approach. 

That's how it appears to me. Which makes it odd to hear the accusations that this is 'all about money' from some of the remaining juniors.

[daleboy1969]

11 minutes ago, Gimme said:

The one thing that seems to be missed time and time again is that without these clubs deciding to leave the SJFA would never have taken the steps it has to attempt to integrate into the pyramid. It would be fair to say that things would simply have continued ad infinitum until someone stuck their head above the parapet or a change of personnel at the top of the tree.

Possibly true .but why has no club tabled a motion for change at either east region or sjfa AGM's over the years . Most are loud and proud on pie and bovril , yet can't stand up and talk up at a meeting .

[cmontheloknow]

1 hour ago, parsforlife said:

 

Apart from NCL and welfare clubs

ok most!

[parsforlife]

ok most!

I was being a little pedantic...

[bendan]

8 minutes ago, daleboy1969 said:

Most are loud and proud on pie and bovril , 

If that were the case, why did everyone spend so much time speculating about who the clubs were?

[cmontheloknow]

1 minute ago, parsforlife said:

 

I was being a little pedantic...

There is a serious point within though. I'd say Welfare are probably too low a standard to have clubs getting in - not sure who they'd nominate either. I'm no expert on Welfare football though! Their website's not massively illuminating either.

The more rural summer amateurs also don't get in, but there will be a good side or two there because of the cross-over of seasons.

North Caley perhaps has the biggest shout for inclusion though. That said, they run it quite strangely at times, doubling up league and cup games, not playing games etc...

[Burnie_man]

26 minutes ago, daleboy1969 said:

Possibly true .but why has no club tabled a motion for change at either east region or sjfa AGM's over the years . Most are loud and proud on pie and bovril , yet can't stand up and talk up at a meeting .

How can you table a motion at an AGM wanting change when the whole ethos of those at the top table is anti-Pyramid? It wouldn't even be accepted for debate.

Kelty already explained on here on on several occasions that they wanted a meeting of clubs to discuss future plans re Pyramid but TJ wasn't interested.  That made-up their mind to leave.  At the subsequent AGM TJ wasn't very complimentary towards them. So I ask, what are you expecting? 

If it were not for Kelty (and Dalkeith), there would have been no survey, and we wouldn't have TJ scrambling around desperately trying to save his job and stop clubs leaving.

Armadale voted in favour of the Pyramid in the survey, why didn't you stand up at these meetings if you thought that was the right thing to do.

 

[daleboy1969]

52 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

How can you table a motion at an AGM wanting change when the whole ethos of those at the top table is anti-Pyramid? It wouldn't even be accepted for debate.

Kelty already explained on here on on several occasions that they wanted a meeting of clubs to discuss future plans re Pyramid but TJ wasn't interested.  That made-up their mind to leave.  At the subsequent AGM TJ wasn't very complimentary towards them. So I ask, what are you expecting? 

If it were not for Kelty (and Dalkeith), there would have been no survey, and we wouldn't have TJ scrambling around desperately trying to save his job and stop clubs leaving.

Armadale voted in favour of the Pyramid in the survey, why didn't you stand up at these meetings if you thought that was the right thing to do.

 

I've never said I oppose the pyramid .I oppose clubs wandering around leagues .if the EOS doesn't suit what next .join SOS league .make he changes within your association . STAND UP AND BE COUNTED .I have slated my club for years over the lack of work on facilities . I would love an u der 20 junior league .but if clubs run away at the first attempt of modernisation within the junior game ALL FOOTBALL WILL SUFFER . I believe the clubs have taken the easy way out and not the best option for non league football in Scotland. 

[Che Dail]

2 minutes ago, daleboy1969 said:

STAND UP AND BE COUNTED .I have slated my club for years over the lack of work on facilities . I would love an u der 20 junior league 

In fairness that's exactly what the clubs leaving have done.

SJFA not interested in an under 20s league, sadly.

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, daleboy1969 said:

I've never said I oppose the pyramid .I oppose clubs wandering around leagues .if the EOS doesn't suit what next .join SOS league .make he changes within your association . STAND UP AND BE COUNTED .I have slated my club for years over the lack of work on facilities . I would love an u der 20 junior league .but if clubs run away at the first attempt of modernisation within the junior game ALL FOOTBALL WILL SUFFER . I believe the clubs have taken the easy way out and not the best option for non league football in Scotland. 

We wanted to be in the Pyramid next season, the whole club will benefit greatly from the move as will the others. In 2019/20 it will benefit again as more clubs follow.

The SJFA weren't interested and your posts illustrate the thinking that has held the game back decades, the SJFA cannot be modernised, they are done.  Stand up and be counted by having the courage to take a different path.

I rather suspect our paths will cross again soon in the Pyramid.

 

[Burnie_man]

3 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

"People don't like to hear the truth"  -   ScottishJuniorFitba is the halfwit that blocks you if you disagree with him, he doesn't like hearing the truth himself. Total idiot.  As for Daleboy1969, well we've been there already.......

I do believe this nut job  was calling clubs that are leaving as "scabs" on twitter.    What was it I was saying about every single tweet or post like this eroding the Juniors reputation and bargaining position? Dear me, the bitterness in some is extreme.

[Marten]

This discussion shows exactly what annoys me about the attitude of some people/clubs. I love football. As some of you know, I moved to Scotland last summer and since then I haven't really had a particular favourite club here but just enjoy watching football and visiting different grounds. I watch football at all levels, from SPL to juniors or amateurs. I love it all, but I love lower levels/non-league most. I enjoy going to juniors, been at a game last Wednesday again. Ultimately, I think a proper pyramid is the best for all, so that the best non-league clubs play each other whilst lower clubs won't notice much difference and just keep playing football at their level. Some of the arguments against the pyramid are laughable. The vast majority of junior teams are of a level that they will never have to worry about getting into the SPFL or even LL. As said, they can just keep enjoying their football at their level. I heard a lot of similar arguments against a pyramid in England and The Netherlands.  In neither country those fears were justified and in England it became accepted, whilst in The Netherlands (where the changes are more recent) people are warming to it.

As long as a proper pyramid system is not in place, each club needs to do what they think is best for themselves. And the thing that really gets me is the vile attacks or crazy accusations thrown at clubs who simply want to do what's they think best for them. Just let them go on with their business and you just go on with yours. This rubbish about a “grade” that needs to be protected is simply not a valid argument. If clubs that are unhappy destroy the grade, maybe you’ll need to have a long and hard look at the grade and organisation rather than blaming the clubs who see their futures elsewhere. I respect their choices, wish these clubs well and they definitely don’t deserve to be shot down for it.

It does work both ways though. If a club decides that applying for a license is not needed for them or they don’t feel the need to move up, that’s fair enough as well. I might not agree with their arguments, but they have every right to make that decision for themselves. As long as you don’t try to stop / criticise the ones who think differently, fair play and good luck to you. Some pro-pyramid people do need to see that as well, but the vast majority of them on here do see that thankfully.

[BS7]

2 hours ago, daleboy1969 said:

If the 11 clubs have felt so agrieved with sjfa why have none brought there concerns or ideas to meetings for inclusion . Yes there have been mistakes but by failing to bring your feelings to the fore your clubs are also culpable . The it's ma baw I'm no playing attitude won't get change . 

What if they did, and no one wanted to go in that direction? Then it’s sensible to change if you prefer the other options.

lets be clear here, nobody’s feet are nailed to the ground clubs are free to move or stay as they please - several have moved between juniors and seniors.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, daleboy1969 said:

I've never said I oppose the pyramid .I oppose clubs wandering around leagues .if the EOS doesn't suit what next .join SOS league .make he changes within your association . STAND UP AND BE COUNTED .I have slated my club for years over the lack of work on facilities . I would love an u der 20 junior league .but if clubs run away at the first attempt of modernisation within the junior game ALL FOOTBALL WILL SUFFER . I believe the clubs have taken the easy way out and not the best option for non league football in Scotland. 

Dale boy, what clubs are wandering around leagues exactly? And to be honest there is nothing in any leagues constitution or indeed SFA constitution that suggest clubs cannot apply to play in whatever league they choose to. 

Clubs who have improved their facilties have done so with one thing in mind..... SFA licensing and access to the pyramid. Something that a high percentage of the clubs leaving the juniors have done, over many years. 

I too think an under 20s would be great, although I remain unconvinced this will happen without the clubs currently junior joining the pyramid. 

Clubs are not running away, although saying this fits your rhetoric at present, clubs are moving as they have committed to the SFA senior pyramid and are attempting to gain their licence (which if you care to read up on it requires more than a couple of youth teams and a good park). 

For you to suggest these clubs have taken the easy way out does nothing but highlight your compete lack of understanding of the work it has taken the clubs to get to where they are. As I have suggested multiple times, clubs have been at this for years and their decision wasn't made in the last month. All clubs being part of the pyramid from amateur to the pro leagues is what's best, all under the same banner with one affiliation, nothing less will do I'm afraid. 

Also, not sure what you gain by writing in capitals. Makes it look like you are shouting at your phone or computer. The sweeping statements you are making hastily would be better off thought out after you look into what the eosfl offer up against the sjfa, what clubs have had to do to begin the process of licensing and think what it would take a club to gain its licence in the future..... If you did this you may not then believe clubs were taking the easy way out, I assure you it isn't a straight forward thing to do. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Guest

[surely not!]

But if clubs run away at the first attempt of modernisation within the junior game ALL FOOTBALL WILL SUFFER

What is this sign of modernisation ? And more importantly, if there is one, why is it 2018 before we see the first sign of it?

As for, ALL FOOTBALL WILL SUFFER- I personally think it won’t, i think it’ll benefit from having more teams at the ‘same level’. Far fewer leagues where there are runaway winners and teams cut adrift and rooted to the bottom ( provided the league size is appropriate). This type of challenge should help push the clubs on ( as inevitably the increased off field standard should) and allow a better on field product as each game is hugely competitive- perhaps helping the fans back in through the gate

[HTG]

For all the people decrying teams who have opted to move out of junior football ... 

It's up to those clubs whether they leave or not. They're all going because they aspire to achieve SFA club licence recognition. 

They are going because that is what the SFA - the governing body (as opposed to the offshoot) - has insisted upon for 5 years now. 

In that time, it's taken until February for the SJFA to get moving. Even then they've done so using derogatory language about other leagues. 

The SJFA has been too slow. Rather than boys like that twitter eejit getting his knickers in a twist about clubs not respecting the grade, they should maybe note that the real disrespect has come from the SFA - who were only responding to the behaviour of the SJFA members.

One thing that is beyond doubt for me. The East Juniors is a shadow of what it was.  Next season will be the football equivalent of purgatory - waiting for someone outside your club to decide your future. I'd be happy enough to just can the season. It's a total waste of time.