Junior football, what is the future?

[Jason King]

I'm living in the future mate, you appear to be the one stuck in a world where supposed "better" teams (better by what standard, show us your licence - oh that's right your team cant as they don't have one, unlike a lot of these "mediocre" teams in the LL)  can vault their way up the pyramid.

[Khufu2]

7 minutes ago, HTG said:

You're 5 years too late.  That's the harsh reality - you and anyone else can set out an ideal scenario but you're too late.  

The sfa  is not going to rip up the HL/LL structure. 3 regions is right in the long term - much easier when a strong tier 6 is in evidence. 

What HL/LL structure is being ripped up by creating tier 5 and 6 Lowland League divisions? The whole point of what I was saying is that given a years notice there will be sufficient licensed clubs to form a LL2.  Season 1 create two regional groups of 16 (only one champion) and season 2 onwards run tier 5 with the top clubs and tier 6 with the bottom clubs. 

[bendan]

3 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

It's time some people  here actually  faced the reality of the situation rather than nurse their grievances and let their grievances rule their head.

 

I think most people agree on this ... for different reasons, obviously.

[Khufu2]

Just now, Jason King said:

I'm living in the future mate, you appear to be the one stuck in a world where supposed "better" teams (better by what standard, show us your licence - oh that's right your team cant as they don't have one, unlike a lot of these "mediocre" teams in the LL)  can vault their way up the pyramid.

That's just nonsense. A requirement to participate at tier 5/6 under my proposal is teams are licensed!

Better by playing strength and facilities.

 

Perhaps you forgot that the creation of the LL allowed teams to "vault up the pyramid".

[Jason King]

8 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

Perhaps you forgot that the creation of the LL allowed teams to "vault up the pyramid".

No. It allowed teams to apply to join and then be admitted to a new league, you cant "vault" something that isn't there - you are proposing something totally different, clearly you cant see this but that's fair enough. Bonnyrigg, Blackburn and the rest aren't vaulting up the pyramid, they are applying to join the apposite league and will go on from there. And that journey may be up and it may be down but as I say if you are a supporter of a club that thinks TJ can implement Level 5 for the Juniors as I said previously you are being dangerously naïve.

The new and improved West structure from next season will allow ALL West clubs to easily integrate into the pyramid at levels 6,7,8,9 and from there the best can rise up to their appropriate level and the "mediocre" as you (both of your accounts) like to call them can also find their level in what will essentially be the same structure as now but thankfully without the awful Junior "grade" tag.

From there I'd like to see the local Amateur leagues combine and put forward Level 10 (and beyond if required) so that ALL teams in the West can become pyramid members - but again I wouldn't expect the best of the Amateur teams to vault into Level 5 just because some internet warrior persiflage thinks they are "better" than the likes of Beith or Rutherglen.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Jason King

[Ross.]

1 hour ago, Khufu2 said:

"Roughly right"? Why not get it right?  AT are closer to SCW and HRA than they are to Aberdeen .. but they aren't on a par with them. They are considerably better.  

We keep hearing this mantra about poorer clubs will be relegated and better ones promoted  and everything will be fine ... but it's gonna take a long time to work through - unless something drastic like 4 down from the LL is introduced and I can't see that happening. Far better to get it right in the first place rather than wait till it sorts itself out.

What could be done?  Well the obvious answer is a third tier 5 league with 16 selected teams admitted. Failing that create two linear LL divisions. Season 1, 16 existing LL teams, plus a selected 16 licensed teams (assuming juniors have the years' notice). In season 1 you have two tier 5 divisions and for the following season the top 8 in each division form tier 5 Premier and the bottom 8 in each division form tier 6 Division One. This now delivers two divisions of licensed clubs.

Handpicking your clubs means that providing they have their licences the likes of Auchinleck, Cumnock, Irvine Meadow, Petershill, Pollok, Beith, Clydebank, Bo'ness, Linlithgow, Newtongrange, Sauchie are likely to get spots based on playing strength and facilities.

Below that you can do your own thing. EOS, SOS, East Juniors, West Juniors can all feed in to tier 6. Only licensed clubs can go up and LL tier 6 teams must nominate in advance the tier 7 division they wish to be relegated to.

The bolded bit is correct. However, you neglect to keep in mind that now is not "The first place". That was several years back when the LL was being set up and the juniors decided to stay away. It is now a case of making the best of a bad situation. That, unfortunately for a lot of clubs, will mean accepting that others took a risk and have a head start. That's life.

[superbigal]

No. It allowed teams to apply to join and then be admitted to a new league, you cant "vault" something that isn't there - you are proposing something totally different, clearly you cant see this but that's fair enough. Bonnyrigg, Blackburn and the rest aren't vaulting up the pyramid, they are applying to join the apposite league and will go on from there. And that journey may be up and it may be down but as I say if you are a supporter of a club that thinks TJ can implement Level 5 for the Juniors as I said previously you are being dangerously naïve.
The new and improved West structure from next season will allow ALL West clubs to easily integrate into the pyramid at levels 6,7,8,9 and from there the best can rise up to their appropriate level and the "mediocre" as you (both of your accounts) like to call them can also find their level in what will essentially be the same structure as now but thankfully without the awful Junior "grade" tag.
From there I'd like to see the local Amateur leagues combine and put forward Level 10 (and beyond if required) so that ALL teams in the West can become pyramid members - but again I wouldn't expect the best of the Amateur teams to vault into Level 5 just because some internet warrior persiflage thinks they are "better" than the likes of Beith or Rutherglen.

To be fair to the amateurs. No rulebook or pyramid or anything that I know of says that they are ranked below the juniors. If the safa decided to join the pyramid in advance of the juniors imagine the stroke isa would have.

[Burnie_man]

22 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

What HL/LL structure is being ripped up by creating tier 5 and 6 Lowland League divisions? The whole point of what I was saying is that given a years notice there will be sufficient licensed clubs to form a LL2.  Season 1 create two regional groups of 16 (only one champion) and season 2 onwards run tier 5 with the top clubs and tier 6 with the bottom clubs. 

What was it you were saying about creating an imaginary world

[Khufu2]

13 minutes ago, Jason King said:

No. It allowed teams to apply to join and then be admitted to a new league, you cant "vault" something that isn't there - you are proposing something totally different, clearly you cant see this but that's fair enough. Bonnyrigg, Blackburn and the rest aren't vaulting up the pyramid, they are applying to join the apposite league and will go on from there. And that journey may be up and it may be down but as I say if you are a supporter of a club that thinks TJ can implement Level 5 for the Juniors as I said previously you are being dangerously naïve.

The new and improved West structure from next season will allow ALL West clubs to easily integrate into the pyramid at levels 6,7,8,9 and from there the best can rise up to their appropriate level and the "mediocre" as you (both of your accounts) like to call them can also find their level in what will essentially be the same structure as now but thankfully without the awful Junior "grade" tag.

From there I'd like to see the local Amateur leagues combine and put forward Level 10 (and beyond if required) so that ALL teams in the West can become pyramid members - but again I wouldn't expect the best of the Amateur teams to vault into Level 5 just because some internet warrior persiflage thinks they are "better" than the likes of Beith or Rutherglen.

The evidence suggests the top amateur teams aren't better than the like of Beith and Rutherglen - though it also suggests the very top amateurs are significantly better than some EOS teams. The evidence is also there to suggest that the better junior teams are better than the generality of Lowland League teams.

The Lowland League was created by teams applying - some clubs indeed vaulted over others ... probably deservedly. If 16 extra LL places are created then again applications should be invited and the most deserving clubs should get those spots. By deserving they would need to be licensed (or as with the formation of the LL have a short period in which to get a licence) and have good playing strength and good facilities.  

 

[Khufu2]

18 minutes ago, Ross. said:

The bolded bit is correct. However, you neglect to keep in mind that now is not "The first place". That was several years back when the LL was being set up and the juniors decided to stay away. It is now a case of making the best of a bad situation. That, unfortunately for a lot of clubs, will mean accepting that others took a risk and have a head start. That's life.

Absolutely. Make the best of a bad situation. Not deliberately make it worse by placing better teams below poorer ones. 

[cmontheloknow]

11 minutes ago, superbigal said:

 

 

 

To be fair to the amateurs. No rulebook or pyramid or anything that I know of says that they are ranked below the juniors. If the safa decided to join the pyramid in advance of the juniors imagine the stroke isa would have.

Well, they, along with the SYFA members and Scottish Welfare FA members, are officially classed as 'Recreational' football while the rest are 'Non Recreational'.

[Jason King]

5 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

If 16 extra LL places are created then again applications should be invited and the most deserving clubs should get those spots.

If, the most powerful word in the English language.

[Cyclizine]

18 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

The evidence suggests the top amateur teams aren't better than the like of Beith and Rutherglen - though it also suggests the very top amateurs are significantly better than some EOS teams. The evidence is also there to suggest that the better junior teams are better than the generality of Lowland League teams.

The Lowland League was created by teams applying - some clubs indeed vaulted over others ... probably deservedly. If 16 extra LL places are created then again applications should be invited and the most deserving clubs should get those spots. By deserving they would need to be licensed (or as with the formation of the LL have a short period in which to get a licence) and have good playing strength and good facilities.  

 

A second lowland region and therefore a third league at level 5 isn't going to happen until there's enough licenced teams to (1) fill it and (2) fill the divisions below. It was difficult enough to convince the SFL clubs to buy into the two league idea at the time. There's no way that the SFA would allow non-licenced clubs into a new level 5 league now, when there's a route in via level 6. As I've said before, 3 leagues at level 5 is the logical step and I think it'll come - but it'll be a decade or so I'd think.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Cyclizine

[Ross.]

3 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

Absolutely. Make the best of a bad situation. Not deliberately make it worse by placing better teams below poorer ones. 

Your criticism of the LL and your suggestion for fixing the issues is hypocritical at best.

The juniors wanted no part of the pyramid. Other clubs took risks to be part of it. The juniors cannot with any seriousness expect to join in on an equal or better footing than those who took the risks. WOS at tier 6 and bolt the juniors in as they are there in the west is the sensible solution. EOS and East Juniors won't be quite as easy to sort out.

Long term thinking requires long term solutions. Putting a dozen junior clubs at the front of the queue would cause further long term divisions that would be far harder to fix than waiting a few years for promotion and relegation to put clubs where they should be.

[Burnie_man]

14 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

The evidence suggests the top amateur teams aren't better than the like of Beith and Rutherglen - though it also suggests the very top amateurs are significantly better than some EOS teams. The evidence is also there to suggest that the better junior teams are better than the generality of Lowland League teams.

The Lowland League was created by teams applying - some clubs indeed vaulted over others ... probably deservedly. If 16 extra LL places are created then again applications should be invited and the most deserving clubs should get those spots. By deserving they would need to be licensed (or as with the formation of the LL have a short period in which to get a licence) and have good playing strength and good facilities.  

 

The SPFL do not want more than one Lowland League

The SPFL do not sit on the Pyramid Working Group

There are not enough Licenced clubs to form two regional Lowland Leagues

The SFA Licence process for current Junior clubs cannot begin until they join the Pyramid

An SFA Licence process can take a lot longer than a season to work through depending on the starting point for each club

Anyone with their head screwed on looking at the above facts realises that for clubs in the west, the starting point which delivers Pyramid entry and access to Licencing in the timescales being suggested is the creation of a WoSFL alongside the EoSFL.  If you want to try and negotiate a tier 5 start point, go right ahead and check back here in a few years and tell us how you are getting on.

Junior clubs need to walk before they can run, they need to become Licenced at the top end, they need to be trusted after years of derision.  Once that happens, once we have a fully Licenced WoSFL and EoSFL then at that point, and only at that point, will anyone even entertain the idea of a LL West and LL East.

Let’s deal in reality and not an imaginary world.

[Khufu2]

30 minutes ago, Jason King said:

If, the most powerful word in the English language.

Indeed. It's a word often used when making proposals. Didn't you know?

[tell_me_more]

You could get twenty licensed clubs from the West Juniors within a year no problem so long as the adminstrators can cope.

All it needs is for licensing to be opened to Junior Clubs this season and taking effect from the amalgamation 2019/20.

There's your level  5 Lowland  League West.

References about 10 years for there to be enough licensed clubs for another lowland league complete and utter nonsense.

 

 

 

 

[Khufu2]

39 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The SPFL do not want more than one Lowland League

The SPFL do not sit on the Pyramid Working Group

There are not enough Licenced clubs to form two regional Lowland Leagues

The SFA Licence process for current Junior clubs cannot begin until they join the Pyramid

An SFA Licence process can take a lot longer than a season to work through depending on the starting point for each club

Anyone with their head screwed on looking at the above facts realises that for clubs in the west, the starting point which delivers Pyramid entry and access to Licencing in the timescales being suggested is the creation of a WoSFL alongside the EoSFL.  If you want to try and negotiate a tier 5 start point, go right ahead and check back here in a few years and tell us how you are getting on.

Junior clubs need to walk before they can run, they need to become Licenced at the top end, they need to be trusted after years of derision.  Once that happens, once we have a fully Licenced WoSFL and EoSFL then at that point, and only at that point, will anyone even entertain the idea of a LL West and LL East.

Let’s deal in reality and not an imaginary world.

"The SPFL do not want more than one Lowland League"

I'm not proposing two Leagues. There would still be one Lowland League, comprising two linear divisions, Premier and Division One (in the first season two geographical divisions to separate the wheat from the chaff.

"There are not enough Licenced clubs to form two regional Lowland Leagues"

I'm not proposing two Leagues but two divisions of the LL It's being proposed for 2019-20 not today.  The whole point of trying to reach agreement by the summer is to allow clubs 12 months to work towards licensing. As with the creation of the Lowland League, clubs could also be given a further 12 months to get a licence.

 

 

"An SFA Licence process can take a lot longer than a season to work through depending on the starting point for each club"

And it can take less. Either way 12 months grace in working towards a licence was granted by the SFA when the Lowland League was created so we have a precedent.

 

 

"The SFA Licence process for current Junior clubs cannot begin until they join the Pyramid"

Does Blackburn United know this?  

 

"Anyone with their head screwed on looking at the above facts realises that"

...they aren't facts at all.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Khufu2

[Burnie_man]

5 minutes ago, tell_me_more said:

You could get twenty licensed clubs from the West Juniors within a year no problem so long as the adminstrators can cope.

All it needs is for licensing to be opened to Junior Clubs this season and taking effect from the amalgamation 2019/20.

There's your level  5 Lowland  League West.

References about 10 years for there to be enough licensed clubs for another lowland league complete and utter nonsense.

 

Nobody suggested 10 years for clubs to get licenced, and you're deluding yourself if you think you can get 20 clubs Licenced in the West Juniors by March 2019.  The SJFA just persuaded the SFA to place an embargo on the process!!!

It's clear that this is being chatted about amongst the SJFA.  They're wasting everyone's time.

[Khufu2]

35 minutes ago, Ross. said:

Your criticism of the LL and your suggestion for fixing the issues is hypocritical at best.

The juniors wanted no part of the pyramid. Other clubs took risks to be part of it. The juniors cannot with any seriousness expect to join in on an equal or better footing than those who took the risks. WOS at tier 6 and bolt the juniors in as they are there in the west is the sensible solution. EOS and East Juniors won't be quite as easy to sort out.

Long term thinking requires long term solutions. Putting a dozen junior clubs at the front of the queue would cause further long term divisions that would be far harder to fix than waiting a few years for promotion and relegation to put clubs where they should be.

Here we go again. Nothing but grievance.

This is now, not 5 years ago. Do we want a pyramid which works with the better clubs positioned above the poorer clubs or do we not? Do we want a working model or a laughing stock?

 

These people don't want a pyramid based on ability. They want a ladder with the juniors standing at the bottom with one allowed to climb one rung per year. And all to preserve their unrealistic position on that ladder.