Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

9 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

 mediocre

We got there in the end

[Khufu2]

4 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

The Lowland League was being talked in serious terms about in the late 00s, Juniors didn't engage with any positivity once the Pyramid Working Group got underway and got bypassed by these other clubs once it was actually established. The speed of its actual formation was a problem to the Juniors, I agree, but that problem was created by their lack of engagement and hope it would all go away. I know visiting some Junior grounds is like entering a timewarp but we cannot rewind time to 2011 to when there was no LL. It exists and the Juniors did not want to be a part of it when formed and were not (as a collective) in any position to join when it was formed.

Perhaps Bonnyrigg, Bo'ness, Linlithgow and Camelon missed a trick when the LL was created. LL was always going to be a glorified EOS league, and not a particularly good one at that so it was understandable that they chose not to join.  And, of course, the big attraction of Scottish Cup entry was open to any club which acquired a licence - you didn't have to join an inferior league like the LL to get it, until the SFA dragged the carpet from under their feet. LL now has four decent teams which are  a match for the best of the juniors. And it was never on for West Junior clubs to join because it was essentially an east league.

I think the SJFA clubs will commit to the pyramid and for most clubs nothing much will change. However, the central belt must have another tier 5 league (at least one ) since the current set up is heavily biased towards the north.  This should happen sooner, one would hope, rather than later.  This would open up 16 spaces to be filled by selection from amongst licensed clubs .... with teams having a year to acquire the licence.  This would get the top junior clubs to their rightful position in the pyramid.

 

 

[bendan]

2 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

... it was essentially an east league.

 

 

 

How was it essentially an east league before any places had been allocated? It became essentially an east league after no teams from the west applied.

[cmontheloknow]

2 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

Perhaps Bonnyrigg, Bo'ness, Linlithgow and Camelon missed a trick when the LL was created. LL was always going to be a glorified EOS league, and not a particularly good one at that so it was understandable that they chose not to join.  And, of course, the big attraction of Scottish Cup entry was open to any club which acquired a licence - you didn't have to join an inferior league like the LL to get it, until the SFA dragged the carpet from under their feet. LL now has four decent teams which are  a match for the best of the juniors. And it was never on for West Junior clubs to join because it was essentially an east league.

I think the SJFA clubs will commit to the pyramid and for most clubs nothing much will change. However, the central belt must have another tier 5 league (at least one ) since the current set up is heavily biased towards the north.  This should happen sooner, one would hope, rather than later.  This would open up 16 spaces to be filled by selection from amongst licensed clubs .... with teams having a year to acquire the licence.  This would get the top junior clubs to their rightful position in the pyramid.

 

 

The LL is only East-biased because no West teams put themselves forward. *IF* Talbot, Pollok, Cumnock, Petershill, Kilwinning, Beith etc had applied, do you think they'd have taken Threave, Selkirk, GFR, Edinburgh Uni etc ahead of them, even BSC and Cumbernauld Colts? From memory Edusport, HRA and CSS have all gained admission since formation via promotion or applying subsequently.

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

Perhaps Bonnyrigg, Bo'ness, Linlithgow and Camelon missed a trick when the LL was created. LL was always going to be a glorified EOS league, and not a particularly good one at that so it was understandable that they chose not to join.  And, of course, the big attraction of Scottish Cup entry was open to any club which acquired a licence - you didn't have to join an inferior league like the LL to get it, until the SFA dragged the carpet from under their feet. LL now has four decent teams which are  a match for the best of the juniors. And it was never on for West Junior clubs to join because it was essentially an east league.

Isa, it wouldn't have been if the top Junior clubs had joined at the outset, it's not difficult to understand.

 

2 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

I think the SJFA clubs will commit to the pyramid and for most clubs nothing much will change. However, the central belt must have another tier 5 league (at least one ) since the current set up is heavily biased towards the north.  This should happen sooner, one would hope, rather than later.  This would open up 16 spaces to be filled by selection from amongst licensed clubs .... with teams having a year to acquire the licence.  This would get the top junior clubs to their rightful position in the pyramid.

Junior clubs don't have a "rightful position" over anyone else. You should try getting out of that Talbot bubble you live in a bit more.

[Khufu2]

13 minutes ago, Jason King said:

Well no.

Because your club has not entered the pyramid they cant actually be compared to those that have in terms of on-field ability. 

If you mean Auchinleck Talbot, we have plenty of evidence about how they and other top junior clubs fare against moderate Highland League and Lowland League opposition in competitive football.

[Jason King]

The LL isn't an inferior league, until you take the blinkers off you are never going to actually see the way ahead.

[cmontheloknow]

Just now, bendan said:

How was it essentially an east league before any places had been allocated? It became essentially an east league after no teams from the west applied.

The conspiracy is that the EoS members rushed its formation to effectively transfer the EoS into a new body called the LL. I think there's an element of truth to that BUT the SJFA was in no position to halt that as they'd positioned themselves in such a way to make it almost impossible in the required timescale.

[Khufu2]

5 minutes ago, Jason King said:

The LL isn't an inferior league, until you take the blinkers off you are never going to actually see the way ahead.

It has 4 good non-league teams in it.  The rest are mediocre at best.

Look at the chasm between the 4th and 5th team:

4 BSC Alloa 29-62

5 Selkirk 27-43

Only 5 teams have won more games than they have lost.

It is nearly as imbalanced as the EOS. 

Don't be fooled by the good teams at the top  into thinking its all high quality stuff in the LL.

 

 

 

 

[Jason King]

And again in that respect its really no different from the Juniors and indeed many other leagues around the world. 

Does the bottom 3 in the West Superleague being so far adrift of the rest mean that the clubs in the league are "mediocre" ? As that seems to be what you are implying

Does Petershill being so far ahead and already having wrapped up the championship make the rest of that leagues teams are "mediocre"? 

Does the gap between the top 4 in the Central First and the rest mean that the remainder of the league is "mediocre" ?

Does the gap between the top 3 in the Central Second and the rest mean that the league is full of "mediocre" clubs ?

Does Celtic having the SPFL title won and Man City having the EPL title won already mean those leagues are full of "mediocre" teams?

Your insistence at screaming into the void isn't really helping you here.

[Marten]

It's a bit ironic how pyramid opponents from the juniors complain about the standard in the LL. When the LL got established, junior teams got invited. It would have been ideal if the top 4 from EOS/SOS/East Juniors/West Juniors all joined. After a few years of promotion/relegation the division would simply contain the 16 best non-league teams in the LL area. You decided not to join and have given up the right to enter at tier 5. Then also don't complain about the current standard. If a proper pyramid with a good promotion/relegation system involving junior clubs finally happens, then the teams that are good enough will join the LL soon enough, it's as simple as that.

[Khufu2]

21 minutes ago, Jason King said:

And again in that respect its really no different from the Juniors and indeed many other leagues around the world. 

Does the bottom 3 in the West Superleague being so far adrift of the rest mean that the clubs in the league are "mediocre" ? As that seems to be what you are implying

Does Petershill being so far ahead and already having wrapped up the championship make the rest of that leagues teams are "mediocre"? 

Does the gap between the top 4 in the Central First and the rest mean that the remainder of the league is "mediocre" ?

Does the gap between the top 3 in the Central Second and the rest mean that the league is full of "mediocre" clubs ?

Does Celtic having the SPFL title won and Man City having the EPL title won already mean those leagues are full of "mediocre" teams?

Your insistence at screaming into the void isn't really helping you here.

7 points behind, two games in hand and seven games still to play is a strange definition of being adrift in the West Superleague

Petershill are nine points clear and the  league is highly competitive for promotion places. BSC are 19 points clear, probably about the same as LTHV ahead of third in EOSL

Central 1 and 2 are awash with mediocre clubs. That's why they are in Central 1 and 2

By Celtic's standards the SPFL is indeed mediocre.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Khufu2

[Cyclizine]

Well of course they have. They aren't in the SPFL (and if they have any sense won't aspire to it). If he had said they had more in common with Spartans, EK, Linlithgow Bonnyrigg, Pollok rather than mediocre non-league clubs I would have agreed. 

I picked three clubs roughly from each of the regions, so cheers for agreeing with me. My point was the pyramid is roughly right. Poorer clubs will be relegated, better clubs promoted. A cliché, but that doesn't make it wrong!

[Jason King]

8 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

7 points behind, two games in hand and seven games still to play is a strange definition of being adrift in the West Superleague

Petershill are nine points clear and the  league is highly competitive for promotion places. BSC are 19 points clear, probably about the same as LTHV ahead of third in EOSL

Central 1 and 2 are awash with mediocre clubs. That's why they are in Central 1 and 2

By Celtic's standards the SPFL is indeed mediocre.

I'm actually confused by what point you are trying to make over your posts!

And can you give us the Isa list of clubs you don't consider to be mediocre, thanks.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Jason King

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

Isa, it wouldn't have been if the top Junior clubs had joined at the outset, it's not difficult to understand.

 

Junior clubs don't have a "rightful position" over anyone else. You should try getting out of that Talbot bubble you live in a bit more.

My man, since the conception of Isabel Goudie there has been no other nom de plume, ISA stands by her principles, can I assure you that whoever Khufu2 is it is not ISA. However, whoever it is talks a lot of sense.

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

My man, since the conception of Isabel Goudie there has been no other nom de plume, ISA stands by her principles, can I assure you that whoever Khufu2 is it is not ISA. However, whoever it is talks a lot of sense.

He talks so much sense he sounds like a twin brother of yours    a mediocre attempt at trolling.

[HTG]

There is an east bias in the Lowland League  (because west teams didn't get involved for reasons we all understand). However, a number of clubs in there now are only "east" defined in the eyes of someone for whom everything east of Ayrshire is "east". 

Geographically, Stirling, Falkirk, Alloa, Cumbernauld, East Kilbride, Gretna, Dalbeattie and Annan cannot be described by any stretch as being in what would reasonably be understood as the East of Scotland. At least half the league as it stands is in South, Central or West of Scotland. 

Aye the quality  will get better when some of the stronger junior teams find their way in and the geographical imbalance will continue to  reduce. 

But the oft asked question remains - if the key group who can make that happen continue to sneer from the side then you'll always get what you always got. 

If we've learned nothing else from the last few weeks, an increasing number of clubs in junior football are just not going to put up with always getting what they always got. 

The rest can please themselves but a lot are recognising the challenge of brigading the needs of 160 clubs (and especially Ayrshire) and have decided just to get on with sorting themselves out. 

[HTG]

I should add that my reading of the note issued yesterday is that there is - at last - a collective effort on the horizon to resolve many of the challenges of the non league structure. I hope so anyway. 

[cmontheloknow]

Just taking things back a few steps, it was wondered up thread why the North Caledonian League didn't give its winners a Scottish Cup place. I see the league have allowed St Duthus and Thurso to ditch an NCL league game (recorded as 0-0) because both sides felt unable to raise a team because of the Highland Amateur Cup preliminary round depriving them of players.

Edited April 24, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[Sergeant Wilson]

4 hours ago, Khufu2 said:

Well it's hardly Newlandsfield or Beechwood Park (x2) or Meadow Park or New Victoria Park or Newtown Park  is it?

It's better than nothing.