Junior football, what is the future?

[Marten]

11 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

And how long will that take if only one or two diddy teams are relegated each year.  Maybe 4  down per season from the Lowland League  would speed things up.

I agree with you on that one. I fully support the pyramid, but it's important to have a higher number of promotion/relegation spots in order to get teams to find their natural level within a few years.

I'm from The Netherlands originally and the Dutch system moved to more of a pyramid in recent years. There used to be 2 separate non-league pyramids below the professional leagues: one for Saturday afternoon football and one for Sunday afternoon football. Both sections had 3 regional top divisions, the 6 divisions differed greatly in level. The split was mainly a religious one, with the strict Protestant part of the country refusing to play on Sunday and the Catholic part of the country preferring Sunday. There were previous attempts to a joint pyramid, but the Saturday section refused it. In the last decade it finally got off the ground and in recent years there has been a joint national top non-league tier. In the new top 2 tiers of non-league there are been 4 relegation places (with one of them through play-offs). This means that now, just a few years later, these tiers got more balanced in level with the teams from the weaker divisions when there was a split of 6 "top levels" in non-league being back on their natural level.

In Scotland that probably would be the best way forward as well, 4 relegation places from LL (maybe 3 automatic and 1 PO), champion EOS / WOS automatic promotion together with the winner of a PO between the 2 runners up and then one more spot to be decided in a LL/EOS/WOS PO. A similar structure can then be in place from EOS/WOS to the legues below them.

(Having said that, that's about the only thing we should copy from the Dutch system. Because, compared to over there, the process in Scotland is going smooth and easy.)

[Jason King]

3 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

I'm fully in favour of a pyramid. A pyramid with the top clubs at the top and the poorest at the bottom. There are people here who want the reverse. They want to make the pyramid a laughing stock.

What?

Can you supply evidence of this?

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

I'm fully in favour of a pyramid. A pyramid with the top clubs at the top and the poorest at the bottom. There are people here who want the reverse. They want to make the pyramid a laughing stock.

Isa, you're going back over the same old ground. Your club have come out publicly and basically said they'll be dragged kicking and screaming into the Pyramid if they have to.   Any problems with the current Pyramid set-up is entirely of Junior clubs own making. Deal with it, your Leader will sort it all out for you.

[Khufu2]

10 minutes ago, Baxter's Nutmeg said:

Your  fascination with crowd figures is no more than a diversion tactic. I think you grossly over estimate the crowds at lower league junior games.

I haven't mentioned any crowds at lower league games so how have I overestimated them? They are probably nearly as poor as EOSFL.  And some of the teams are probably as duff as many of the EOSFL teams. I'm more interested in teams being placed appropriately in any pyramid.

I mentioned one crowd at a junior game to counteract the claim that junior grounds wouldn't be allowed to house large crowds.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Khufu2

[Khufu2]

2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Isa, you're going back over the same old ground. Your club....

This guy is utterly delusional.

Seek help.

[cmontheloknow]

9 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

I haven't mentioned any crowds at lower league games so how have I overestimated them? They are probably nearly as poor as EOSFL.  And some of the teams are probably as duff as many of the EOSFL teams. I'm more interested in teams being placed appropriately in any pyramid.

I mentioned one crowd at a junior game to counteract the claim that junior grounds wouldn't be allowed to house large crowds.

I said SOME large Junior ENCLOSURES would not get a safety certificate at a higher level.

Edited April 24, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[Burnie_man]

Just now, Khufu2 said:

This guy is utterly delusional.

Seek help.

I'm not the one with identity issues Isa 

[Cyclizine]

I'm fully in favour of a pyramid. A pyramid with the top clubs at the top and the poorest at the bottom. There are people here who want the reverse. They want to make the pyramid a laughing stock.

I hate to break it to you, but Talbot have far more in common with Hawick RA, Lossiemouth or St Cuthbert Wanderers than they do with St Mirren, Aberdeen or Dunfermline. The pyramid seems about right and as always: teams will be promoted and teams will be relegated!

[Baxter's Nutmeg]

1 minute ago, Khufu2 said:

I haven't mentioned any crowds at lower league games so how have I overestimated them? They are probably nearly as poor as EOSFL.  And some of the teams are probably as duff as many of the EOSFL teams. I'm more interested in teams being placed appropriately in any pyramid.

I mentioned one crowd at a junior game to counteract the claim that junior grounds wouldn't be allowed to house large crowds.

You seem to offer a generalisation that most Junior teams are getting in crowds in three figures every week, when it reality they are struggling like a lot of other teams...........out with your lofty heights of course.

[Guest]

Went to a local Lowland League game out of curiosity a few weeks back ,on a brilliant day, a few others like myself were curious junior fans...walked round the ground and did a head count...Total 75.....Last Saturday ,,home junior game,..walk round..head count.156...80% senior citizens........Proves nothing really..other than ,even with an important game  as previously quoted..the fan base is dwindling and getting older...Maybe the new structure will re-vitalise it for a while.

[Khufu2]

5 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

I hate to break it to you, but Talbot have far more in common with Hawick RA, Lossiemouth or St Cuthbert Wanderers than they do with St Mirren, Aberdeen or Dunfermline. The pyramid seems about right and as always: teams will be promoted and teams will be relegated!

I hate to break it to you but Talbot don't particularly interest me and I hate to break it to you that no one would ever claim that they have anything in common with St Mirren etc.

However, if you are implying they are on a par with the HRA and the others then I hate to break it to you but you are pretty clueless about relative standards.

 

[Khufu2]

9 minutes ago, Baxter's Nutmeg said:

You seem to offer a generalisation that most Junior teams are getting in crowds in three figures every week,

Where on earth have I said that or even implied it???????

[Jason King]

1 minute ago, Khufu2 said:

However, if you are implying they are on a par with the HRA and the others then I hate to break it to you but you are pretty clueless about relative standards.

Indeed my little Ayrshire friend, HRA are well above Talbot in the pecking order of Scottish football.

[Khufu2]

4 minutes ago, Jason King said:

Indeed my little Ayrshire friend, HRA are well above Talbot in the pecking order of Scottish football.

Not when it comes to playing ability they aren't.  They might  beabove them   in the structure though... which kind of makes my point for me.

Thank you.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Khufu2

[bendan]

7 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

I hate to break it to you but Talbot don't particularly interest me and I hate to break it to you that no one would ever claim that they have anything in common with St Mirren etc.

However, if you are implying they are on a par with the HRA and the others then I hate to break it to you but you are pretty clueless about relative standards.

 

He said they 'have more in common with' HRA than with St Mirren etc. That isn't the same as saying 'on a par with'. I bet if you looked at annual budgets, and average attendances, Auchinleck would be a lot closer to HRA than to St Mirren.

[cmontheloknow]

7 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

Not when it comes to playing ability they aren't.  They might  beabove them   in the structure though... which kind of makes my point for me.

Thank you.

The Lowland League was being talked in serious terms about in the late 00s, Juniors didn't engage with any positivity once the Pyramid Working Group got underway and got bypassed by these other clubs once it was actually established. The speed of its actual formation was a problem to the Juniors, I agree, but that problem was created by their lack of engagement and hope it would all go away. I know visiting some Junior grounds is like entering a timewarp but we cannot rewind time to 2011 to when there was no LL. It exists and the Juniors did not want to be a part of it when formed and were not (as a collective) in any position to join when it was formed.

Edited April 24, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[Khufu2]

Just now, bendan said:

He said they 'have more in common with' HRA than with St Mirren etc. That isn't the same as saying 'on a par with'. I bet if you looked at annual budgets, and average attendances, Auchinleck would be a lot closer to HRA than to St Mirren.

Well of course they have. They aren't in the SPFL (and if they have any sense won't aspire to it). If he had said they had more in common with Spartans, EK, Linlithgow Bonnyrigg, Pollok rather than mediocre non-league clubs I would have agreed. 

[bendan]

5 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

Well of course they have. They aren't in the SPFL (and if they have any sense won't aspire to it). If he had said they had more in common with Spartans, EK, Linlithgow Bonnyrigg, Pollok rather than mediocre non-league clubs I would have agreed. 

So you are agreeing, but then explain why you disagreed ...

[cmontheloknow]

6 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

Well of course they have. They aren't in the SPFL (and if they have any sense won't aspire to it). If he had said they had more in common with Spartans, EK, Linlithgow Bonnyrigg, Pollok rather than mediocre non-league clubs I would have agreed. 

Cowdenbeath will get £43000 for finishing bottom of the SPFL L2. What will Talbot get for finishng top of the West Super Premier? It was £3000 in the mid 00s but there's no guarantee subsequent sponsors will match earlier amounts.

[Jason King]

15 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

Not when it comes to playing ability they aren't.  They might  beabove them   in the structure though... which kind of makes my point for me.

Thank you.

Well no.

Because your club has not entered the pyramid they cant actually be compared to those that have in terms of on-field ability.