Jump to content
Burnie_man

Junior football, what is the future?

Recommended Posts

12 hours ago, Robert James said:

4 champion clubs competing for a play-off with 1 SPFL club, and still not promoted if they lose ! If this was introduced, the 10th club in the SPFL would need to be relegated automatically each season.

Can't see this happening.

The SFA didn't propose that option, it says they favour the Juniors sitting alongside the East and South of Scotland Leagues.  It was the SJFA that suggested the Juniors sit alongside the Lowland. No chance of that happening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be fair to the SJFA it sounds like option B is being pushed as a matter for discussion only if enough junior superleague clubs are interested and are able to do licensing in time:

On 2018/02/09 at 23:54, Goalie Hamish said:

...Says the SFA favour option A, but the SJFA wanted option B discussed as well.  Option A more likely to be accepted. Start date listed as 2019-20...

Questionnaire ask clubs if Junior football should join the pyramid, which option they prefer A or B, and also a question as to whether they have the facilities to be licenced, to be returned by end of month...

which seems unlikely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/02/2018 at 09:32, Burnie_man said:

If this is  a true reflection of that meeting and the SFA are pushing option A then it has to be that one. No way are the Juniors going to be accepted on the same level as the LL, that's fantasy thinking.

Option A allows the Juniors to move as a block into the Pyramid and means no change at all for 95% of clubs, it does however allow clubs at the top end to start thinking Licence and promotion to the LL, no more glass ceiling, it also allows clubs lower down to get Licenced and benefit from Scottish Cup participation.

Long term you'd have to think that the EoSFL will merge in with the existing East Region, and the SoSFL tags on in some way to the West, but they can all exist separately for the time being.

If this is actually a serious proposition and the SJFA are serious about driving change in time for 2019-2020, then it may halt the flow to the EoSFL.  Then again, if they are serious......I remain skeptical.

I think it is obvious that the SJFA sees this as a way to "halt the flow to the EoSFL".  I hope aspiring junior clubs realise this !

Also whichever Option is favoured, the document must make it clear that promotion from tiers 5 & 6 is compulsory for ALL licensed clubs. Otherwise Junior clubs can commit to the pyramid, solely for the purpose of gaining entry to the Scottish Cup.

If the SFA agrees to incorporate the Junior Leagues into the pyramid, it must also resolve the 'other' North problem, ie incorporation of the NCL into the set up. Two of the last seven clubs which have been elected into the HFL have come from the NCL (Wick Academy & Fort William), and if they were relegated in future, there would be no way either could stay within the pyramid (nor Brora) as the North Juniors is not a viable regional/financial alternative.  NCL clubs like Thurso FC and Orkney FC are based in towns with decent sized populations, and have good levels of support, and whilst they are not seeking HFL membership at present (nor are Golspie), who knows what the future holds? 

However, the main point here is that the current 9 NCL clubs  are located in an area not geographically covered by the North Juniors. (NCL club Alness Utd applied to join the Juniors  a few years ago, but were rejected).  An integrated senior/junior pyramid, which excludes clubs from the highlands & islands north & west of Inverness, would de facto exclude one large area of Scotland. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/02/2018 at 11:58, HTG said:

They're just being very self centred and looking after their own interests. I can't think of a single strand of Scottish football which exhibits a different set of behaviours. 

Given that the member clubs currently in the pyramid will be the ones voting on the SJFA proposals, tell us what you make of this:

PYRAMID

Whilst it could be argued that Pyramid could aid the development of the game in Scotland, some would also suggest that the concept of the Lowland League was flawed – primarily being a rebadged East of Scotland League with geography rather that merit being part of the selection process.   However, over the last 5 seasons, standards both on and off the park have improved in the Lowland League.

The newly formed East Kilbride FC have been consistently improving on the pitch and all 16 clubs now are Club Licensed.

The down side however is the “nomadic” clubs who have no fixed abode nor demonstrable support, together with Stirling and Edinburgh Universities and one could be excused for asking what they bring to the game overall.

Very poorly worded, a certain level of arrogance displayed in this passage which permeates through the whole paper unfortunately. 

It also has several typos, factual inaccuracies, spelling mistakes and grammatical errors, and they've got the name of some clubs wrong.  How to win friends and influence people.  The wrong illustrations are used to describe the options, the pyramid diagram is confusing (the bands don't line up with the text) and the survey itself is woefully inadequate - 3 poorly selected questions to determine the future of Junior football. 

Do the North clubs just ignore it since Options A and B don't include them at all?  Why is there not an option for the East Region clubs to merge in with the East of Scotland League?

The language & tone of the document and the basic Word formatting of the thing is decidedly amateurish - it just doesn't fit with the SFA media image or PR profile  - they've had nothing to do with this.  

As a progression of Option A, the national Junior Association should simply break up and split into distinct regions, join the pyramid and promote its top clubs into the Lowland and Highland Leagues.  The East Region clubs should merge in with the established East of Scotland League feeder and the North Region assoc should lead their clubs into a North Association. It's fairly simple and straightforward.

The 'Junior' name could still be survived in the Scottish Junior Cup for non-licensed clubs below the LL and HL, if they wish to participate.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

There is no chance of the Juniors league season finishing on time to make the dates set out for play offs to get into the LL.

You can't really compare like for like at the moment though as there's currently no need to finish on time for the LL playoffs , if need be then the juniors would make sure that the season is tweaked to do so, they would do what it takes to do so therefore it's not really a relative point just now .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/12/2018 at 02:45, Bigjimmcalpine said:

You can't really compare like for like at the moment though as there's currently no need to finish on time for the LL playoffs , if need be then the juniors would make sure that the season is tweaked to do so, they would do what it takes to do so therefore it's not really a relative point just now .

I have never known the people who run junior football to "do what it takes" if it means disrupting their "the way we have always done it".

Whether planning fixtures ahead of next week or the week after next or even fiddling around with leagues always seems to be too much. They just can't be arsed.  Even when a few forward thinking clubs get together to look at reorganizing leagues in a considered and logical way this is seen as treasonable behaviour. 

Allowing junior football to be consumed by the SFA into their  pyramid is merely a way for the people running the SJFA to avoid making decisions that require thought or even understanding of the game they purport to lead.

The SJFA is not alone in this incompetent behaiour. Only need to look at the SFA giving Chief Exec the old heave ho, no doubt with nice package to compensate for unfair dismissal and to keep his mouth shut. Malky the bigot now being a shoo in for Scotland job, the organisation being clueless and directionless. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No floodlights and the Junior Cup mean that there is zero chance of a current top Junior league finishing before the 2nd week in May!



With an earlier start in July and a printed fixture list of course it could.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, superbigal said:

 

 


With an earlier start in July and a printed fixture list of course it could.

 

 

fixture list????? What madness is this????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, superbigal said:

 

 

 

 


With an earlier start in July and a printed fixture list of course it could.

 

 

With the same guy in charge of fixtures?   Not a chance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites



With an earlier start in July and a printed fixture list of course it could.

Crivens, you'll be suggesting using the Devil's Illuminations next!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, superbigal said:

 

 


With an earlier start in July and a printed fixture list of course it could.

 

 

Yes, printed! So that it can be handed out at the start of the season. This internet fad will soon pass.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/02/2018 at 00:55, Che Dail said:

Given that the member clubs currently in the pyramid will be the ones voting on the SJFA proposals, tell us what you make of this:

PYRAMID

Whilst it could be argued that Pyramid could aid the development of the game in Scotland, some would also suggest that the concept of the Lowland League was flawed – primarily being a rebadged East of Scotland League with geography rather that merit being part of the selection process.   However, over the last 5 seasons, standards both on and off the park have improved in the Lowland League.

The newly formed East Kilbride FC have been consistently improving on the pitch and all 16 clubs now are Club Licensed.

The down side however is the “nomadic” clubs who have no fixed abode nor demonstrable support, together with Stirling and Edinburgh Universities and one could be excused for asking what they bring to the game overall.

Very poorly worded, a certain level of arrogance displayed in this passage which permeates through the whole paper unfortunately. 

It also has several typos, factual inaccuracies, spelling mistakes and grammatical errors, and they've got the name of some clubs wrong.  How to win friends and influence people.  The wrong illustrations are used to describe the options, the pyramid diagram is confusing (the bands don't line up with the text) and the survey itself is woefully inadequate - 3 poorly selected questions to determine the future of Junior football. 

Do the North clubs just ignore it since Options A and B don't include them at all?  Why is there not an option for the East Region clubs to merge in with the East of Scotland League?

The language & tone of the document and the basic Word formatting of the thing is decidedly amateurish - it just doesn't fit with the SFA media image or PR profile  - they've had nothing to do with this.  

As a progression of Option A, the national Junior Association should simply break up and split into distinct regions, join the pyramid and promote its top clubs into the Lowland and Highland Leagues.  The East Region clubs should merge in with the established East of Scotland League feeder and the North Region assoc should lead their clubs into a North Association. It's fairly simple and straightforward.

The 'Junior' name could still be survived in the Scottish Junior Cup for non-licensed clubs below the LL and HL, if they wish to participate.  

 

Do the  "senior" non league clubs really want all of the  Junior leagues to be slotted  into the pyramid, and would they support such a proposal ?    Unlikely ? 

Where will the SPFL clubs stand on the establishment of a nationally integrated, top to bottom "pyramid" structure, requiring compulsory promotion and relegation throughout (not just play-offs) which would be the inevitable outcome? 

By comparison, what proportion of the Junior clubs will want to commit to a "pyramid", which would be a feeder league to the HFL & SLL, and ultimately to the SPFL ?  Probably not many in the West and North, and a few  from the East.  Whilst the results of the survey will be interesting,  the outcome will be indecisive,  which raises the question, will the SFA take positive steps to determine and implement an integrated structure, or will it give way to existing vested interests and be content to allow the present 'drift' to continue ?

Or perhaps there will be a split  within the SJFA itself ?  The next few months should be very interesting.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Robert James said:

Do the  "senior" non league clubs really want all of the  Junior leagues to be slotted  into the pyramid, and would they support such a proposal ?    Unlikely ? 

Where will the SPFL clubs stand on the establishment of a nationally integrated, top to bottom "pyramid" structure, requiring compulsory promotion and relegation throughout (not just play-offs) which would be the inevitable outcome? 

By comparison, what proportion of the Junior clubs will want to commit to a "pyramid", which would be a feeder league to the HFL & SLL, and ultimately to the SPFL ?  Probably not many in the West and North, and a few  from the East.  Whilst the results of the survey will be interesting,  the outcome will be indecisive,  which raises the question, will the SFA take positive steps to determine and implement an integrated structure, or will it give way to existing vested interests and be content to allow the present 'drift' to continue ?

Or perhaps there will be a split  within the SJFA itself ?  The next few months should be very interesting.

Why should promotion be compulsory? If teams do not have the facilities or feel they can afford the financial input that promotion would require, they should be allowed to refuse and the position offered to the next best side.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ross. said:

Why should promotion be compulsory? If teams do not have the facilities or feel they can afford the financial input that promotion would require, they should be allowed to refuse and the position offered to the next best side.

Exactly.  It's not compulsory in the English pyramid.  This whole 'adventure' should be about finding the right fit for all clubs, regardless of size.  Forcing clubs to go further than they wish, or can afford, would be counter-productive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Ross. said:

Why should promotion be compulsory? If teams do not have the facilities or feel they can afford the financial input that promotion would require, they should be allowed to refuse and the position offered to the next best side.

It’s not really meritorious then? Say the first 4/5 clubs refuse to go up, how far do you go down?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Patches O'Houlihan said:

It’s not really meritorious then? Say the first 4/5 clubs refuse to go up, how far do you go down?

If the first 4/5 sides refuse then that's a shame for them. The club who finish 5/6 get the chance to move up and improve themselves. If they aren't good enough they go straight back down.

If a team wins a league but has to upgrade their ground to meet the criteria to move up a division and they don't have that money, forcing them to find it or play elsewhere is creating other problems. Chances are that side will end up selling their better players and coming straight back down, or borrowing money and losing long term revenue as a result of having to satisfy debts they have been forced into taking on. Over the long term that is worse for the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Ross. said:

If the first 4/5 sides refuse then that's a shame for them. The club who finish 5/6 get the chance to move up and improve themselves. If they aren't good enough they go straight back down.

If a team wins a league but has to upgrade their ground to meet the criteria to move up a division and they don't have that money, forcing them to find it or play elsewhere is creating other problems. Chances are that side will end up selling their better players and coming straight back down, or borrowing money and losing long term revenue as a result of having to satisfy debts they have been forced into taking on. Over the long term that is worse for the game.

There are 2 ways of looking at this. If the promotion issue is enforced in an already established league then your scenario is fair enough. However, if teams enter into a new league set up, and know the rules before they start, then they can have no complaints.

In my opinion no relegation or promotion means our game stagnates, and we are in no position to further damage the Scottish game as a whole.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Patches O'Houlihan said:

There are 2 ways of looking at this. If the promotion issue is enforced in an already established league then your scenario is fair enough. However, if teams enter into a new league set up, and know the rules before they start, then they can have no complaints.

In my opinion no relegation or promotion means our game stagnates, and we are in no position to further damage the Scottish game as a whole.

Scenario 1 there: A team enters the league set up having committed to upgrading their facilities over a 5 year period, not expecting instant success and figuring they have a couple of years to bed in and find their feet. They confound expectations and are as surprised as everyone when they win the league at the first time of asking. They have committed to improving their ground but do not have everything in place yet, and to speed things up will mean over extending themselves financially. Should they be forced into moving up a league?

The point of the pyramid is that everyone finds their level eventually. If some are happy to remain at the lower end, good for them. If others want to push themselves further up, good for them too. Forcing clubs to make decisions that could make or break them when there is an obvious alternative available is crazy.

Edited by Ross.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×