Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

...and what some people don't seem to get is that junior football would very much still be there if that happened and would be much the same as it is now, but probably minus some of the more bizarre things that most people don't seem to like, such as having no fixture lists well in advance, limits on the use of floodlights when clubs have them available and the cash grab that is reinstatement. Some of the perennial high flyers would no doubt rise to bigger things giving more clubs the chance at some silverware, others that usually struggle would fall away to the amateur level to be replaced by clubs like Rossvale, Kennoway or Gartcairn that want to give a higher level a go, but most would putter along doing much the same as they are now, as every club would find its natural level.

It's an odd business.  Not one of the 160 odd member clubs ever see fit to propose at AGM to remove the re-instatement nonsense. Not one. Nobody talks.

[parsforlife]

It's an odd business.  Not one of the 160 odd member clubs ever see fit to propose at AGM to remove the re-instatement nonsense. Not one. Nobody talks.

 

It really is bizarre, nobody seems to like it but seem scared to question it publicly. With the likes of Johnstone working directly against progress in the juniors. Clubs must remember they have the power, not egos at the top, btw you have the power to get rid of them too.

 

Just don't agree with that. Some people like having something a bit different, the distinction. Nothing wrong with that view . I think if you asked many in the west anyway the majority would have that view.

 

I like having a senior club and enjoy what that brings being top side in country and the European experience.

 

I enjoy having a junior team and what that offers me a level where my hometown team can achieve on a region wide and national level where I know nearly everyone and enjoy the games against sides from similar towns fairly local.

 

I enjoy having an amateur side and what they are watching boys I've known for years competing at there level as a team.

 

The long term lifetime way many have enjoyed there football can't just be changed like that. It's ingrained into the mindset of people.

That's just my view.

 

 

Just because you can't handle the ups and downs of supporting your local team without latchting onto a side from another part of the country shouldn't stop progress in the rest of the game.

 

Unless you get a hell of a lot better the idea of playing celtic outside of a one off cup game anytime soon is ever so slightly ridiculous.

 

Champions league has hardly stopped the 'I also support barcelona' fans up and down the country.

 

Do you know what I do on a Saturday? I support my hometown team against clubs from similar sized towns. There really isn't a lot of difference between senior and junior clubs. Do you really think the match day experience for a kelty fan has dramaticly changed overnight?

 

 

 

[The Mantis]

8 hours ago, JackD1908 said:

Junior football is what it is, but it's a lot more intersting than the senior football in Scotland.

Speaking as somebody who watches all grades including u20, International, junior, LL, women's, spfl, etc etc, I think that's a bizarre claim and I'm surprised nobody's picked up on it. The Juniors forum has enough 'wha's like us' shite as it is.

[Hillonearth]

10 hours ago, Che Dail said:

I'm not talking about geography I'm talking about league structure and the route through the pyramid.

I do appreciate that if one or two clubs made the switch it might not be viable for SL West clubs.

The EoS stretches to Tweedmouth and Eyemouth - 1.5hrs from Edinburgh, whereas Stranraer is 2hrs from Glasgow.

In East Region Juniors, Edinburgh to Forfar is almost 2hrs.

Dunbar to Forfar about 2.5hrs.

I'm not taking about quality of football, because if Junior clubs move over together it would be exactly the same as it is now.

If all the clubs were to make a commitment then they'd all have a say in how it is structured / regionalised going forward. 

In all likelihood the majority of SoS clubs would filter down, if the standard is as poor as you say.

So what you're actually talking about is a land grab for the SoSL - say a dozen West Region teams decamping en masse for there at once and forming a second tier of the South below the preexisting one? Do you actually see anyone signing up for six or seven years slog of maybe two of those sides going up to the "top" tier each season until the "new" teams eventually replace the current SoSL teams?

Bear in mind we're also talking about a setup that would have to actually vote in the new members that were turning up team-handed to supplant them in their own backyard...does anyone see them voting yes and thus acquiescing to their own eventual oblivion? There was enough debate in South circles recently about admitting one side from Kilmarnock as it lay outside their traditional catchment area of the far south-west.

10 hours ago, Che Dail said:

..."progression" for a side like Talbot or Pollok would be playing Rangers or Celtic in the Scottish Cup, which might go some way towards paying for the bus to Threave.

I'd rather we all looked up rather than down.

That's not progression, that's hoping against hope for a chance to keep the score down in a cuptie every decade or so. Scotland's already got enough senior sides hoping to feed off the scraps from the Twin Cheeks' table as is.

 

[Che Dail]

46 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

So what you're actually talking about is a land grab for the SoSL - say a dozen West Region teams decamping en masse for there at once and forming a second tier of the South below the preexisting one? Do you actually see anyone signing up for six or seven years slog of maybe two of those sides going up to the "top" tier each season until the "new" teams eventually replace the current SoSL teams?

Bear in mind we're also talking about a setup that would have to actually vote in the new members that were turning up team-handed to supplant them in their own backyard...does anyone see them voting yes and thus acquiescing to their own eventual oblivion? There was enough debate in South circles recently about admitting one side from Kilmarnock as it lay outside their traditional catchment area of the far south-west.

That's not progression, that's hoping against hope for a chance to keep the score down in a cuptie every decade or so. Scotland's already got enough senior sides hoping to feed off the scraps from the Twin Cheeks' table as is.

 

Not quite a 'land grab' because it wouldn't be a hostile act, it's not a takeover.  The move would be mutually beneficial for the existing SoS clubs and the Juniors clubs.  

I'd have thought it would be a welcome problem for the SoS league secretary to manage and make it work.  The pitch to the clubs would simply be that the standard of the division would improve considerably, gates would go up, improved player recruitment prospects and the profile of the league would be enhanced.  The league is committed to the pyramid after all so I'm not sure why they'd want to prevent new members from joining. 

The ex Junior clubs would be free to make their license application and gain entry to the Scottish Cup every season - as other clubs have shown recently it's not beyond the realms of possibility to go on a run which generates a huge amount of interest and decent income that they otherwise would not have access to.  And they'd still be playing against their local rivals week to week.

It might not be necessary to make the clubs start afresh in a tier below the SoS - I suspect there would be a case to be made to re-structure the league to suit the full and enhanced list of members and this could be done by negotiation.

Hypothetically speaking you could take the top half of SL clubs and the top half SoS clubs and form a 1st division of 16, and the bottom half of both leagues form a 2nd division of 16, with say 3 up 3 down and a playoff for 4th bottom and 4th top.  That way the impact would be immediate (for both leagues) and not over 6-7 years as you suggest.  Clubs would quickly find their level and within a couple of seasons more clubs would surely follow.

Beyond that, with the Juniors committed to the pyramid, there would be a fresh case to be made for a Lowland League West, and a Lowland League East.  I honestly think that would be progressive.

 

 

 

[archieb]

The major problem in establishing a full pyramid definitely lies with finding a way to incorporate the West Region Juniors.

The North Region clubs have a potential path available directly into the HL, even if it's currently closed.

The East Region clubs have the option of following Kelty into the EoSL, although an amalgamation of SJFA(East) and EoSL would make more sense.

But West Region clubs currently have no realistic way to progress, indeed the top level of SJFA(West), either as it stands, or by absorbing the westernmost members of the LL and top SoSL clubs into a LL(West), is the most natural bloc of clubs to become a feeder to a higher echelon within a pyramid system. 

So, if the clubs in the junior sector (in particular in the West) ARE genuinely interested in becoming part of an all-encompassing pyramid system, what are the main obstacles and how could they be overcome?

1. The senior/junior distinction means that in order to join the existing pseudo-pyramid, a top club has to relinquish it's "junior" classification, losing access to the one national competition it might have a chance or winning in the SJFA Cup and, if the worst happens, with no route back into the junior leagues other than starting again at the bottom.

2. Moving out of the juniors into the existing senior pyramid could mean losing games against traditional local rivals, more travelling, a loss of gate and other revenue with not much more than the novelty of facing new opponents and visiting new locations to compensate.

3. Promotion to anything above the current pyramid's basement level requires clubs to persue and obtain an SFA license (and it is mandatory to accept promotion). That requires significant investment but, if done successfully, it gives access to the potentially lucrative senior SFA Cup. Unfortunately, the qualifying rounds will eliminate most of the non-league minnows before they get a big money tie so any cash bonanza IS only potential.

(The above points are not intended to be a complete description of the issues, just my analysis of the biggest stumbling blocks.)

So, are there practical and progressive changes that those who want a proper pyramid can push for and that would make the establishment of one the natural next step?

A. Do away with the senior/junior divide and put all non-league clubs in both sectors under a single umbrella organisation. It's a biggie, I know, so barriers will need to be broken down first. The most painless way to do that would be to invite ALL non-league "senior" clubs to participate, initially as guests, in the Junior Cup. It's a cost-free option, as the number of byes currently drawn in R1 of the cup would allow ALL the non-league seniors to take part without requiring an extra round. There are complications, such as SFA Cup participants getting an automatic R1 bye, and potential fixture congestion might deter many from taking up the offer. However, it would allow clubs like Kelty to keep their Junior Cup place after switching to senior, be a balancing gesture to the admission of top Junior clubs into the SFA Cup, give non-league seniors who DON'T get admitted to the SFA Cup a national competition to play in and provide a new source of interesting games for existing Junior teams.

B. The SFA must allow clubs that finish in promotion places in the pyramid to decline promotion. This would be consistent with practice in other countries' pyramids and allay the concerns of clubs that one successful season could lead to their demise through the cost of meeting extra licensing requirements or greater travelling in a higher, more geographically spread division/league.

C. Clubs in all regions of the SJFA top divisions (especially the West) should continue to move towards reaching the standard for SFA licensing (although without, initially, actually applying for a license). If a block of such clubs is established it would put pressure on the SFA to accept a West of Scotland pyramid feeder that would NOT have to fit in below the SoSL, but rather the SoSL would fit in below IT.

(Apologies for the length of that post. Feel free to pull it to shreds.)

Edited June 30, 2017 by archieb

[Sergeant Wilson]

12 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Not quite a 'land grab' because it wouldn't be a hostile act, it's not a takeover.  The move would be mutually beneficial for the existing SoS clubs and the Juniors clubs.  

I'd have thought it would be a welcome problem for the SoS league secretary to manage and make it work.  The pitch to the clubs would simply be that the standard of the division would improve considerably, gates would go up, improved player recruitment prospects and the profile of the league would be enhanced.  The league is committed to the pyramid after all so I'm not sure why they'd want to prevent new members from joining. 

The ex Junior clubs would be free to make their license application and gain entry to the Scottish Cup every season - as other clubs have shown recently it's not beyond the realms of possibility to go on a run which generates a huge amount of interest and decent income that they otherwise would not have access to.  And they'd still be playing against their local rivals week to week.

It might not be necessary to make the clubs start afresh in a tier below the SoS - I suspect there would be a case to be made to re-structure the league to suit the full and enhanced list of members and this could be done by negotiation.

Hypothetically speaking you could take the top half of SL clubs and the top half SoS clubs and form a 1st division of 16, and the bottom half of both leagues form a 2nd division of 16, with say 3 up 3 down and a playoff for 4th bottom and 4th top.  That way the impact would be immediate (for both leagues) and not over 6-7 years as you suggest.  Clubs would quickly find their level and within a couple of seasons more clubs would surely follow.

Beyond that, with the Juniors committed to the pyramid, there would be a fresh case to be made for a Lowland League West, and a Lowland League East.  I honestly think that would be progressive.

 

 

 

What if 20 odd decent sized west juniors joined up and got their licenses, would the Scottish Cup kitty be increased to make sure they got a fair share, or would the existing pot be spread a bit thinner? Or would it just be the extra gates and the chance of fluking a big draw? Part of the attraction just now is the novelty and prestige of being part of a small group of qualifiers. I'm not sure it would be the same if everybody was in it.

[Burnie_man]

10 hours ago, archieb said:

The major problem in establishing a full pyramid definitely lies with finding a way to incorporate the West Region Juniors.

The North Region clubs have a potential path available directly into the HL, even if it's currently closed.

The East Region clubs have the option of following Kelty into the EoSL, although an amalgamation of SJFA(East) and EoSL would make more sense.

But West Region clubs currently have no realistic way to progress, indeed the top level of SJFA(West), either as it stands, or by absorbing the westernmost members of the LL and top SoSL clubs into a LL(West), is the most natural bloc of clubs to become a feeder to a higher echelon within a pyramid system. 

So, if the clubs in the junior sector (in particular in the West) ARE genuinely interested in becoming part of an all-encompassing pyramid system, what are the main obstacles and how could they be overcome?

1. The senior/junior distinction means that in order to join the existing pseudo-pyramid, a top club has to relinquish it's "junior" classification, losing access to the one national competition it might have a chance or winning in the SJFA Cup and, if the worst happens, with no route back into the junior leagues other than starting again at the bottom.

2. Moving out of the juniors into the existing senior pyramid could mean losing games against traditional local rivals, more travelling, a loss of gate and other revenue with not much more than the novelty of facing new opponents and visiting new locations to compensate.

3. Promotion to anything above the current pyramid's basement level requires clubs to persue and obtain an SFA license (and it is mandatory to accept promotion). That requires significant investment but, if done successfully, it gives access to the potentially lucrative senior SFA Cup. Unfortunately, the qualifying rounds will eliminate most of the non-league minnows before they get a big money tie so any cash bonanza IS only potential.

(The above points are not intended to be a complete description of the issues, just my analysis of the biggest stumbling blocks.)

So, are there practical and progressive changes that those who want a proper pyramid can push for and that would make the establishment of one the natural next step?

A. Do away with the senior/junior divide and put all non-league clubs in both sectors under a single umbrella organisation. It's a biggie, I know, so barriers will need to be broken down first. The most painless way to do that would be to invite ALL non-league "senior" clubs to participate, initially as guests, in the Junior Cup. It's a cost-free option, as the number of byes currently drawn in R1 of the cup would allow ALL the non-league seniors to take part without requiring an extra round. There are complications, such as SFA Cup participants getting an automatic R1 bye, and potential fixture congestion might deter many from taking up the offer. However, it would allow clubs like Kelty to keep their Junior Cup place after switching to senior, be a balancing gesture to the admission of top Junior clubs into the SFA Cup, give non-league seniors who DON'T get admitted to the SFA Cup a national competition to play in and provide a new source of interesting games for existing Junior teams.

B. The SFA must allow clubs that finish in promotion places in the pyramid to decline promotion. This would be consistent with practice in other countries' pyramids and allay the concerns of clubs that one successful season could lead to their demise through the cost of meeting extra licensing requirements or greater travelling in a higher, more geographically spread division/league.

C. Clubs in all regions of the SJFA top divisions (especially the West) should continue to move towards reaching the standard for SFA licensing (although without, initially, actually applying for a license). If a block of such clubs is established it would put pressure on the SFA to accept a West of Scotland pyramid feeder that would NOT have to fit in below the SoSL, but rather the SoSL would fit in below IT.

(Apologies for the length of that post. Feel free to pull it to shreds.)

It's discussions like this that need to be happening. If the Juniors don't talk, nothing will happen

 

 

[Che Dail]

12 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

What if 20 odd decent sized west juniors joined up and got their licenses, would the Scottish Cup kitty be increased to make sure they got a fair share, or would the existing pot be spread a bit thinner? Or would it just be the extra gates and the chance of fluking a big draw? Part of the attraction just now is the novelty and prestige of being part of a small group of qualifiers. I'm not sure it would be the same if everybody was in it.

As i understand it the licensed clubs receive a share of the SFA profit year on year. So if there are more clubs registered, on the face of it, there would be less available per club.

But if you look at it in more detail the new members would help to generate profit for the association (as they evidently do now for the SJFA) - so in theory the more clubs switching over, the more profitable the association would become, so more cash would be paid out across the board at the start of each season.

And you have to believe that the Scottish national team will continue to improve and progress and get to a world cup finals which ultimately is what it's all about.  If they do, and the national association receives a windfall, all the member clubs would benefit. 

Cash generated from a Scottish Cup run is what you make of it. You'd have to advance in the competition and of curse there's a degree of luck in the draw.

In the previous 3 seasons on average 10 "non-league" clubs have reached the 3rd round, 4 ave have made it to the 4th round and in 2014/15 Spartans reached the 5th round.  Top level SL junior clubs could aspire to this.

Within the same timeframe non-league clubs have been drawn against Celtic, Hibs, Motherwell, Ross County, Hamilton, Partick, St Mirren, Dunfermline, Raith, Morton.

The money generated from every one of these fixtures stays in the "non-league" game.

The Scottish Junior Cup on the other hand will generate barely any revenue for your club, unless they win it or gets to the final and even at that the amount of money raised is not significant.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sergeant Wilson]

4 hours ago, Che Dail said:

As i understand it the licensed clubs receive a share of the SFA profit year on year. So if there are more clubs registered, on the face of it, there would be less available per club.

But if you look at it in more detail the new members would help to generate profit for the association (as they evidently do now for the SJFA) - so in theory the more clubs switching over, the more profitable the association would become, so more cash would be paid out across the board at the start of each season.

And you have to believe that the Scottish national team will continue to improve and progress and get to a world cup finals which ultimately is what it's all about.  If they do, and the national association receives a windfall, all the member clubs would benefit. 

Cash generated from a Scottish Cup run is what you make of it. You'd have to advance in the competition and of curse there's a degree of luck in the draw.

In the previous 3 seasons on average 10 "non-league" clubs have reached the 3rd round, 4 ave have made it to the 4th round and in 2014/15 Spartans reached the 5th round.  Top level SL junior clubs could aspire to this.

Within the same timeframe non-league clubs have been drawn against Celtic, Hibs, Motherwell, Ross County, Hamilton, Partick, St Mirren, Dunfermline, Raith, Morton.

The money generated from every one of these fixtures stays in the "non-league" game.

The Scottish Junior Cup on the other hand will generate barely any revenue for your club, unless they win it or gets to the final and even at that the amount of money raised is not significant.

 

 

 

 

 

There is a lot of wishful thinking in there. I doubt there is that much profit for the clubs or SJFA. I really don't see the relevance of any of this to the national team. 

[Che Dail]

4 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

There is a lot of wishful thinking in there. I doubt there is that much profit for the clubs or SJFA. I really don't see the relevance of any of this to the national team. 

Licensed clubs receive a payment every season from the SFA - i think this year for the 6th tier clubs it is about £6k. The overall pot varies depending on SFA profit from the previous year, so more money would be generated if Scotland reached the World Cup finals - that would be a good year for everyone.

Agree it is wishful thinking that all junior clubs would move en-masse to the pyramid.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sergeant Wilson]

2 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Licensed clubs receive a payment every season from the SFA - i think this year for the 6th tier clubs it is about £6k. The overall pot varies depending on SFA profit from the previous year, so more money would be generated if Scotland reached the World Cup finals - that would be a good year for everyone.

Agree it is wishful thinking that all junior clubs would move en-masse to the pyramid.

 

 

 

 

 

I meant the WC Qualification.

[Che Dail]

23 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

I meant the WC Qualification.

Haha  aye maybe not this time round Sarge

[Duraglit shareholder]

If anybody has the time, google German football league set up via wikipedia.Thats what should be done in this country,3 professional leagues of 18-18-20 clubs then regionalised divisions that are all linked via promotion and relegation where in theory a team like hurlford amateurs could progress to west junior prem and so on.Take a look in more detail,if looking for efficient set up you know the Germans will have found it, and they say almost every club finds their level.

[Che Dail]

7 minutes ago, Duraglit shareholder said:

If anybody has the time, google German football league set up via wikipedia.Thats what should be done in this country,3 professional leagues of 18-18-20 clubs then regionalised divisions that are all linked via promotion and relegation where in theory a team like hurlford amateurs could progress to west junior prem and so on.Take a look in more detail,if looking for efficient set up you know the Germans will have found it, and they say almost every club finds their level.

Yes - it works. 

Danish system is similar too - 2 top (pro) leagues of 14 and 12 (best v best), then 3 regional 2nd divisions, and below each of those is the Denmark Series.

Our equivalent of those 2nd divisions could be Highland / Lowland East / Lowland West.  The EoS / SoS etc would be the Series equivalent. Below that is amateur.

Danish population close to Scotland £5m ish and is also similar in terms of geography, i.e. it's a 4 hr drive from Aalborg to Copenhagen.

Meanwhile in Scotland Berwick will travel to Elgin twice (nearly 5hrs) and vice versa - something not right with that, at this grade of football...

 

 

[archieb]

The SoSL a route into the Pyramid for West Junior clubs? What a joke!

The LICENSED team that finished 1st, 3rd, 2nd in the last 3 seasons (Wigtown) has just folded, apparently unable to raise a squad of players in sparsely populated Galloway.

And yet theirs is the League that ambitious West clubs are expected to aspire to joining? Unbelievable!!

[Burnie_man]

The SoSL a route into the Pyramid for West Junior clubs? What a joke!
The LICENSED team that finished 1st, 3rd, 2nd in the last 3 seasons (Wigtown) has just folded, apparently unable to raise a squad of players in sparsely populated Galloway.
And yet theirs is the League that ambitious West clubs are expected to aspire to joining? Unbelievable!!

Quite incredible really. The SoSFL is not a league that should be at tier 6 of Scottish football.

[archieb]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

 

Quite incredible really. The SoSFL is not a league that should be at tier 6 of Scottish football.

 

The SoSL is a backwater in both a geographical and a footballing sense. The SFA's insistence that for a WoSJ side such as Talbot to be licensed it must play in this embarrassment of a League is near enough equivalent to telling Banks O'Dee to play in the North Caledonian League!

[rednblack]

Wait a minute, there are ambitious West clubs?

Obviously  oh no wait the only way to an 'ambitious' club is to abandon what you have always been to join the south of Scotland league and 'pyramid '.

Lot of nonsense junior football clubs can be just as ambitious as any club at any other level, being the best you can be at junior level and only junior level is perfectly fine and as ambitious as wanting to join some other system.

Don't come on here and patronise us, most of our clubs were winning trophies and had decades of history before your own club had ever been heard of.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lowenan]

On 2.7.2017 at 15:37, Che Dail said:

Yes - it works. 

Danish system is similar too - 2 top (pro) leagues of 14 and 12 (best v best), then 3 regional 2nd divisions, and below each of those is the Denmark Series.

Our equivalent of those 2nd divisions could be Highland / Lowland East / Lowland West.  The EoS / SoS etc would be the Series equivalent. Below that is amateur.

Danish population close to Scotland £5m ish and is also similar in terms of geography, i.e. it's a 4 hr drive from Aalborg to Copenhagen.

Meanwhile in Scotland Berwick will travel to Elgin twice (nearly 5hrs) and vice versa - something not right with that, at this grade of football...

 

 

The Norwegian league system works fine as well, and lots of small clubs travel more than five hours here. Long country and lots of fjords.