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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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1 minute ago, Baxter's Nutmeg said:

Talbot would love to have the license for entry into the senior Scottish Cup.

Of course we would but the current legislation prevents us from gaining that license unless we commit football suicide. However we carry on upgrading our ground to even higher standards. We survived well over 100 years without the Scottish Cup and will continue to do so.

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10 minutes ago, Dipple burn said:

Of course we would but the current legislation prevents us from gaining that license unless we commit football suicide. However we carry on upgrading our ground to even higher standards. We survived well over 100 years without the Scottish Cup and will continue to do so.

Will Talbot make any representations to the SJFA to change their stance on engaging with the SFA in a positive manner re the Pyramid? You clearly see the benefits of Licencing, so why not actually try and change attitudes?

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The SFA is an Association of clubs, not an Authority.
If the clubs want change they need to initiate it themselves, based on what's best for them.
If the 16 West Region Super League clubs want to join the pyramid and all the benefits it would bring, they could each apply for a license and more or less create the same league they're in now.  
The obvious difference being that before a ball is kicked each season they'd receive their SFA payment and would have participation in the Scottish Cup to look forward to. 
And a fixture list.
Same principle applies to East Region clubs.


Yes they are but the SFA put forward proposals at the AGM one of which could add a new "west league".

I disagree that the clubs could just get a licence and create a new league. This was never offered to the clubs at the time we had to register our interest. We asked for clarification but none was forthcoming. Unless the SFA were to say we are going to create a west version of the east of Scotland league then why would clubs take the risk. The licence money would be great but the loss of gate income for some clubs would negate this.
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40 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Will Talbot make any representations to the SJFA to change their stance on engaging with the SFA in a positive manner re the Pyramid? You clearly see the benefits of Licencing, so why not actually try and change attitudes?

Auchinleck are 100% for remaining Junior and will remain in that frame of mind until something comes along that benefits the club. How can we change attitudes and push and idea when we were asked to join a league which would have been a geographical disaster for us? What was offered to us if we wanted a license will now probably scare any West Region club into thinking about joining a pyramid. We wanted a license and I won't hide the fact it was for the financial clout of the Scottish Cup but that was kicked into touch due to the offer made to us not being feasible.  I'm part of the building committee and have been for the past 30 years. We started upgrading Beechwood with the intent of making viewing football at Beechwood more comfortable for the punters. I won't lie and say we didn't apply for a license to join the senior competition but the ground was at licensing level well before the application and it was a case of dipping our toe in the water to gauge the warmth of the SFA. The proposal by them was preposterous and actually made us wonder if we would be welcome in the grand scale of things. The people who push the pyramid gush that clubs should try to reach their highest level, so being one of the biggest clubs in Junior football must come into that category. If you think Talbot will do a Kelty then don't hold your breath but I do admire their stance and hope it doesn't backfire on them.

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8 hours ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 


Yes they are but the SFA put forward proposals at the AGM one of which could add a new "west league".

I disagree that the clubs could just get a licence and create a new league. This was never offered to the clubs at the time we had to register our interest. We asked for clarification but none was forthcoming. Unless the SFA were to say we are going to create a west version of the east of Scotland league then why would clubs take the risk. The licence money would be great but the loss of gate income for some clubs would negate this.

 

The South of Scotland league is the West version of the EoS league.

If a group of clubs joined at the the same time  they would effectively have the same fixtures and therefore generate the same gate receipts.

Over time the current SoS clubs might find themselves in a lower division of the SoS they all find a level. 

What the SFA could do to incentive change would be to flip the distribution of its club payments so that the lower league clubs, those who need it, get more money to develop.

 

 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

The South of Scotland league is the West version of the EoS league.

If a group of clubs joined at the the same time  they would effectively have the same fixtures and therefore generate the same gate receipts.

Over time the current SoS clubs might find themselves in a lower division of the SoS they all find a level. 

What the SFA could do to incentive change would be to flip the distribution of its club payments so that the lower league clubs, those who need it, get more money to develop

Only in Scotland could you hope that first sentence made sense.

No it's not. First and biggest clue is its name. It covers a completely different geographical area of the country, with virtually no overlap in footprint..

Seriously, buy a map and look at where the clubs play strung along the coast from Stranraer to Annan.

Then take a look at the venues most of them play at; a few groundshare at the likes of Palmerston or have decent enclosed grounds (Threave, St Cuthbert's and so on) but a good proportion play at schools, 3G cages or the corner of farmers' fields. They're all here: http://nonleaguescotland.org.uk/

Lastly, go and actually watch a couple of the games. I don't want it to seem like South-bashing; the SoSL is what it is, but the standard is generally fairly low overall.

Again, only in Scotland could you pontificate to a side like Talbot or Pollok that playing at that level is a step up..."progresion" ....

Edited by Hillonearth
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22 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

Only in Scotland could you hope that first sentence made sense.

No it's not. First and biggest clue is its name.

Seriously, buy a map and look at where the clubs play strung along the coast from Stranraer to Annan.

Then take a look at the venues most of them play at; a few groundshare at the likes of Palmerston or have decent enclosed grounds (Threave, St Cuthbert's and so on) but a good proportion play at schools, 3G cages or the corner of farmers' fields. They're all here: http://nonleaguescotland.org.uk/

Lastly, go and actually watch a couple of the games. I don't want it to seem like South-bashing; the SoSL is what it is, but the standard is generally fairly low overall.

Again, only in Scotland could you pontificate to a side like Talbot or Pollok that playing at that level is a step up..."progresion" ....

I'm not talking about geography I'm talking about league structure and the route through the pyramid.

I do appreciate that if one or two clubs made the switch it might not be viable for SL West clubs.

The EoS stretches to Tweedmouth and Eyemouth - 1.5hrs from Edinburgh, whereas Stranraer is 2hrs from Glasgow.

In East Region Juniors, Edinburgh to Forfar is almost 2hrs.

Dunbar to Forfar about 2.5hrs.

I'm not taking about quality of football, because if Junior clubs move over together it would be exactly the same as it is now.

If all the clubs were to make a commitment then they'd all have a say in how it is structured / regionalised going forward. 

In all likelihood the majority of SoS clubs would filter down, if the standard is as poor as you say.

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53 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

Only in Scotland could you hope that first sentence made sense.

No it's not. First and biggest clue is its name. It covers a completely different geographical area of the country, with virtually no overlap in footprint..

Seriously, buy a map and look at where the clubs play strung along the coast from Stranraer to Annan.

Then take a look at the venues most of them play at; a few groundshare at the likes of Palmerston or have decent enclosed grounds (Threave, St Cuthbert's and so on) but a good proportion play at schools, 3G cages or the corner of farmers' fields. They're all here: http://nonleaguescotland.org.uk/

Lastly, go and actually watch a couple of the games. I don't want it to seem like South-bashing; the SoSL is what it is, but the standard is generally fairly low overall.

Again, only in Scotland could you pontificate to a side like Talbot or Pollok that playing at that level is a step up..."progresion" ....

..."progression" for a side like Talbot or Pollok would be playing Rangers or Celtic in the Scottish Cup, which might go some way towards paying for the bus to Threave.

I'd rather we all looked up rather than down.

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1 hour ago, Che Dail said:

..."progression" for a side like Talbot or Pollok would be playing Rangers or Celtic in the Scottish Cup, which might go some way towards paying for the bus to Threave.

I'd rather we all looked up rather than down.

One game against the ugly sisters doesn't point to progression, it points at being happy with an unsuccessful nomadic existence. One game would be great but every other week your playing teams with next to no support. Plenty of times last season we had bigger crowds at Newlandsfield than the whole of league 1&2 and the odd championship game. Junior football is what it is, but it's a lot more intersting than the senior football in Scotland.

I'm agreeing with Rob Roy guy, bloody hell.

Edited by JackD1908
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11 hours ago, Dipple burn said:

Auchinleck are 100% for remaining Junior and will remain in that frame of mind until something comes along that benefits the club. How can we change attitudes and push and idea when we were asked to join a league which would have been a geographical disaster for us? What was offered to us if we wanted a license will now probably scare any West Region club into thinking about joining a pyramid. We wanted a license and I won't hide the fact it was for the financial clout of the Scottish Cup but that was kicked into touch due to the offer made to us not being feasible.  I'm part of the building committee and have been for the past 30 years. We started upgrading Beechwood with the intent of making viewing football at Beechwood more comfortable for the punters. I won't lie and say we didn't apply for a license to join the senior competition but the ground was at licensing level well before the application and it was a case of dipping our toe in the water to gauge the warmth of the SFA. The proposal by them was preposterous and actually made us wonder if we would be welcome in the grand scale of things. The people who push the pyramid gush that clubs should try to reach their highest level, so being one of the biggest clubs in Junior football must come into that category. If you think Talbot will do a Kelty then don't hold your breath but I do admire their stance and hope it doesn't backfire on them.

I admire Talbot’s foresight to continually improve the ground and facilities whilst keeping a competitive team on the pitch, but there’s going to come a time when this won’t be enough.   The Pyramid will not go away, regardless of how flawed it currently is, so I am surprised that Talbot are not employing that same foresight to judge where things will be in 10 years time, maybe you have and don’t think anything will change, fair enough.

The sham that is Edusport Academy are now LL, they will now reap the financial rewards from the SFA as BSC Alloa are currently doing, as East Kilbride are, as Cumbernauld Colts are, whilst Talbot do not. Talbot will sit on the side lines when these clubs are playing in the Scottish Cup and banking SFA money.  Slowly but surely the LL is influencing the SFA’s thinking, and if Bo’ness follow Kelty, others in the East will follow too and the erosion will have begun.

The SFA in their eyes will be vindicated.  How that effects the Junior game long term is up for debate, but it certainly won’t be positive. I can see the SFA slowly putting the squeeze on.

Junior clubs saying they are 100% Junior and not talking to each other about the elephant in the room are just doing themselves long term harm.  There are a lot of positives that the Junior game still brings to the table, the question is how to take this into an all-encompassing non-league set-up instead of continued isolationism. Doing nothing is no longer an option.

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27 minutes ago, JackD1908 said:

Junior football is what it is, but it's a lot more intersting than the senior football in Scotland.

 

Wouldn't it be great if there was no Senior or Junior or Amateur and we were all just football clubs, no artificial divides, moving up the leagues when you're good, and down the leagues when you're bad. No glass ceilings, no locked shut trap doors, just leagues.

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1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

Wouldn't it be great if there was no Senior or Junior or Amateur and we were all just football clubs, no artificial divides, moving up the leagues when you're good, and down the leagues when you're bad. No glass ceilings, no locked shut trap doors, just leagues.

...and what some people don't seem to get is that junior football would very much still be there if that happened and would be much the same as it is now, but probably minus some of the more bizarre things that most people don't seem to like, such as having no fixture lists well in advance, limits on the use of floodlights when clubs have them available and the cash grab that is reinstatement. Some of the perennial high flyers would no doubt rise to bigger things giving more clubs the chance at some silverware, others that usually struggle would fall away to the amateur level to be replaced by clubs like Rossvale, Kennoway or Gartcairn that want to give a higher level a go, but most would putter along doing much the same as they are now, as every club would find its natural level.

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37 minutes ago, JackD1908 said:

One game against the ugly sisters doesn't point to progression, it points at being happy with an unsuccessful nomadic existence. One game would be great but every other week your playing teams with next to no support. Plenty of times last season we had bigger crowds at Newlandsfield than the whole of league 1&2 and the odd championship game. Junior football is what it is, but it's a lot more intersting than the senior football in Scotland.

I'm agreeing with Rob Roy guy, bloody hell.

But it wouldn't be a nomadic existence if all the clubs moved across. 

You'd take the £150k + for the Scottish cup run then go back to playing the teams you've always played, the derbies and the relatively big crowds.

 

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Wouldn't it be great if there was no Senior or Junior or Amateur and we were all just football clubs, no artificial divides, moving up the leagues when you're good, and down the leagues when you're bad. No glass ceilings, no locked shut trap doors, just leagues.

Just don't agree with that. Some people like having something a bit different, the distinction. Nothing wrong with that view . I think if you asked many in the west anyway the majority would have that view.

 

I like having a senior club and enjoy what that brings being top side in country and the European experience.

 

I enjoy having a junior team and what that offers me a level where my hometown team can achieve on a region wide and national level where I know nearly everyone and enjoy the games against sides from similar towns fairly local.

 

I enjoy having an amateur side and what they are watching boys I've known for years competing at there level as a team.

 

The long term lifetime way many have enjoyed there football can't just be changed like that. It's ingrained into the mindset of people.

That's just my view.

 

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22 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

.....and this isn't the thread to go over it once again. Move on.

'Move on' says the guy who can't quite get past that Kelty decided to quit the juniors instead of spending x number of years arguing fruitlessly with  other clubs and the SJFA and has now spent weeks haranguing a Kelty committee member on here...

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1 hour ago, rednblack said:

Just don't agree with that. Some people like having something a bit different, the distinction. Nothing wrong with that view . I think if you asked many in the west anyway the majority would have that view.

 

I like having a senior club and enjoy what that brings being top side in country and the European experience.

 

I enjoy having a junior team and what that offers me a level where my hometown team can achieve on a region wide and national level where I know nearly everyone and enjoy the games against sides from similar towns fairly local.

 

I enjoy having an amateur side and what they are watching boys I've known for years competing at there level as a team.

 

The long term lifetime way many have enjoyed there football can't just be changed like that. It's ingrained into the mindset of people.

That's just my view.

 

Why would removing the divides between the different levels of football change any of that?

You’ll still have your “Senior” team, you’ll still have your “Junior” team, it’s very unlikely either of them would ever meet in league football, so nothing much will really change.  Presumably at the moment when fixtures clash you have to make the choice as to which game to attend. You’ll still have to do that regardless of the set-up.

So what changes if all clubs just become football clubs in the one league system?  Why should we prevent Bonnyrigg Rose from ever playing Whitehill Welfare just along the road in league football, what are you achieving by doing this exactly? It’s absurd.

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1 hour ago, Klinker said:

'Move on' says the guy who can't quite get past that Kelty decided to quit the juniors instead of spending x number of years arguing fruitlessly with  other clubs and the SJFA and has now spent weeks haranguing a Kelty committee member on here...

You need to work out the difference of "haranguing" and having a debate on an internet forum.

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