Junior football, what is the future?

[Marten]

I would hope the East will get a 12 team superleague and 2 regionalised 12 team leagues underneath. I understand the issues, but games like Lochee United v Blairgowrie Juniors would be too imbalanced imo.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

9 minutes ago, Marten said:

I would hope the East will get a 12 team superleague and 2 regionalised 12 team leagues underneath. I understand the issues, but games like Lochee United v Blairgowrie Juniors would be too imbalanced imo.

There would be a strange irony and schaudenfraude about that when a lot of Junior fans and clubs were slagging off the EoS for cricket scores when LTHV or Kelty played Burntisland or Tweedmouth only for, one year later, to see similar scores in their own league

[ShrimpLok]

On 6/2/2018 at 22:17, FairWeatherFan said:

Going by the league table I was basing it they'd only highlighted the bottom 3 of the Premier League. That'd make things clear cut for the 3x12 format then.

EDIT: Unless i'm missing something obvious to those more familiar with the areas.

 

3 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Think the most interesting part of the article is actually this snippet:

...The format of the East Juniors for next season is still to be rubber-stamped by administrators, but the Evening News understands a regionalised structure of three leagues will be put in place...

 

 

3 hours ago, HTG said:

I'd be astonished if the leagues were anything other than regionalised.  There have been occasions in the past - especially in the days of the 12 team superleague - where Tayside teams have had lots of trips to Fife and the Lothians but the make up of a region wide league would be really heavy for Fauldhouse. 

I was assuming it would be something like the above 12 team Superleague with a north and south below. 

Problem with 3 x 12 regionalised is that the numbers are not great for that. Even with a North Fife / Perthshire conference I still get 13 teams north and east of Dundee:

Dundee / Angus
Lochee United
Broughty Athletic
Carnoustie Panmure
Forfar West End
Downfield Juniors
Dundee North End
Kirriemuir Thistle
Dundee Violet
Dundee East Craigie
Lochee Harp
Arbroath Victoria
Brechin Victoria
Forfar Albion

There also isn't room for Tayport in the Dundee based region so they would end up in the North Fife / Perthshire area which is a team short anyway unless you assign one Dundee team to it:

North Fife / Perthshire
Kennoway Star Hearts
Tayport
Thornton Hibs
Glenrothes
Luncarty
Kinnoull Juniors
Scone Thistle
Blairgowrie Juniors
Coupar Angus
Newburgh Juniors
Kirkcaldy YM

West Lothian and South Fife works a bit better as a region. 

West Lothian / South Fife
Fauldhouse United
Pumpherston Juniors
Bathgate Thistle
Whitburn Juniors
Armadale Thistle
West Calder United
Harthill Royal
Livingston United
Stoneyburn Juniors
Rosyth
Lochore Welfare
Lochgelly Albert 

2 x 18 doesn't work any better. Either Tayport has to be in the West Lothian / Fife league  or else one of the Perthshire clubs (probably Kinnoull):

North
Lochee United
Broughty Athletic
Carnoustie Panmure
Forfar West End
Downfield Juniors
Dundee North End
Kirriemuir Thistle
Dundee Violet
Dundee East Craigie
Lochee Harp
Arbroath Victoria
Brechin Victoria
Forfar Albion
Luncarty
Kinnoull Juniors
Scone Thistle
Blairgowrie Juniors
Coupar Angus

South
Fauldhouse United
Pumpherston Juniors
Bathgate Thistle
Whitburn Juniors
Armadale Thistle
West Calder United
Harthill Royal
Livingston United
Stoneyburn Juniors
Rosyth
Lochore Welfare
Lochgelly Albert 
Kirkcaldy YM
Thornton Hibs
Glenrothes
Kennoway Star Hearts
Newburgh Juniors
Tayport

If you were determined to go down a three regional leagues basis I wonder if the best option is actually 14-12-10. Rosyth might not be keen but otherwise it looks reasonable. 

Tay Bridge (14)
Lochee United
Broughty Athletic
Carnoustie Panmure
Forfar West End
Downfield Juniors
Dundee North End
Kirriemuir Thistle
Dundee Violet
Dundee East Craigie
Lochee Harp
Arbroath Victoria
Brechin Victoria
Forfar Albion
Tayport

M90 (12)
Kennoway Star Hearts
Thornton Hibs
Glenrothes
Luncarty
Kinnoull Juniors
Scone Thistle
Blairgowrie Juniors
Coupar Angus
Newburgh Juniors
Kirkcaldy YM
Lochore Welfare
Lochgelly Albert 

Forth Bridge (10)
Fauldhouse United
Pumpherston Juniors
Bathgate Thistle
Whitburn Juniors
Armadale Thistle
West Calder United
Harthill Royal
Livingston United
Stoneyburn Juniors
Rosyth

Edited June 11, 2018 by ShrimpLok

[Pyramidic]

3 hours ago, Ginaro said:

Scottish Junior Football Association secretary Tom Johnston admits they didn’t do enough to convince Junior clubs in the east to stay, although he doesn’t know what more they could have done.

Junior football in the east has changed drastically with 24 clubs having signed up for the East of Scotland League as of next season. Every club east of West Lothian has departed, leaving behind an association mainly comprised of Fife and Tayside based clubs.

The format of the East Juniors for next season is still to be rubber-stamped by administrators, but the Evening News understands a regionalised structure of three leagues will be put in place.

Johnston, secretary of the SJFA, says Junior football still has a future, although he says they’ll learn a lot from the east exodus.

“We’ll just continue as we have done before,” said Johnston. “It might be a depleted East Region we have, but we are still very strong in the north and the west. We will continue as we have done previously.

“It’s disappointing to see all these clubs leaving, especially seeing as they have been around for a long, long time as Junior clubs. If that’s what they want to do... it’s really entirely up to them. We’ll focus on the teams that remain and we’ll march on.

“It seems to have been a kind of domino effect recently, a lot of clubs left because of others. I don’t know what we could have done about that. We’ll look at it and we’ll learn. From what remains, we’ll try and make that stronger.”

Johnston is confident west clubs won’t end up joining an equivalent league, with plans still in place to bring the Juniors in line with the SFA’s Pyramid.

He continued: “If we get in at tier 6 in the Pyramid, I don’t think there would be any requirement for them to leave. What they have got there in the west is a pretty strong organisation, so I don’t see the same applying in the west.

“We’ll learn from the situation in the east and we’ll make improvements and we’ll take it forward.

“Obviously we didn’t do enough to convince clubs to stay in the Juniors, but I don’t know what else we could have done. I went out and met the clubs and talked with them. Even up until the rest of the clubs started pulling out, we had conviction from them that they would continue. People changed their mind at the last minute, so I don’t know how we would have been expected to cater or cope with that.”

 

Do not worry about the above article as the rumours are that TJ has been working flat out to sort this mess out and fully integrate the SJFA West Region into Tier 6 of the pyramid with some ambitious pro-pyramid changes and dynamic "blue sky thinking" that ensures the long term security of the grade.

It is alleged that important integration papers are to be submitted to the SJFA West Region Management Meeting tomorrow followed by rubber stamping at the SJFA AGM on Saturday and further finaised submissions to the  SJFA West Region Management Meeting and SJFA West Region Annual General Meeting on the Wednesday the 27th.

Things appear to be really moving given the current dire emergency.  At long last some real inspired action for concerted change and innovation? Or was I dreaming?

 

NB: What is a blue sky thinking?

1. creative ideas that are not limited by current thinking or beliefs. Contemporary definitions for blue-sky thinking. noun. original or creative thinking, unfettered by convention and not grounded in reality.

2. Blue represents both the sky and the sea, and is associated with open spaces, freedom, intuition, imagination, expansiveness, inspiration, and sensitivity. Blue also represents meanings of depth, trust, loyalty, sincerity, wisdom, confidence, stability, faith, heaven, and intelligence.

[Burnie_man]

18 minutes ago, Marten said:

I would hope the East will get a 12 team superleague and 2 regionalised 12 team leagues underneath. I understand the issues, but games like Lochee United v Blairgowrie Juniors would be too imbalanced imo.

I suspect it would be for one season only.  I expect that most of the remaining West Lothian and Fife clubs will move to the EoSFL end of next season, they would be mad not to. 

Tayside and Perthshire clubs may continue to go it alone with what remains of the Juniors, although maybe their predicament will be settled by the PWG before then.  Depends how many are keen to move into the Pyramid.

[Burnie_man]

8 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

 

Do not worry about the above article as the rumours are that TJ has been working flat out to sort this mess out and fully integrate the SJFA West Region into Tier 6 of the pyramid with some ambitious pro-pyramid changes and dynamic "blue sky thinking" that ensures the long term security of the grade.

It is alleged that important integration papers are to be submitted to the SJFA West Region Management Meeting tomorrow followed by rubber stamping at the SJFA AGM on Saturday and further finaised submissions to the  SJFA West Region Management Meeting and SJFA West Region Annual General Meeting on the Wednesday the 27th.

Things appear to be really moving given the current dire emergency.  At long last some real inspired action for concerted change and innovation? Or was I dreaming?

 

NB: What is a blue sky thinking?

1. creative ideas that are not limited by current thinking or beliefs. Contemporary definitions for blue-sky thinking. noun. original or creative thinking, unfettered by convention and not grounded in reality.

2. Blue represents both the sky and the sea, and is associated with open spaces, freedom, intuition, imagination, expansiveness, inspiration, and sensitivity. Blue also represents meanings of depth, trust, loyalty, sincerity, wisdom, confidence, stability, faith, heaven, and intelligence.

On that particular point re the West Region moving wholesale into the Pyramid at tier 6, I think the PWG would be open to such a suggestion on the condition that the rules and regulations followed by the WRJFA were brought completely into line with that of the EoSFL, eg season finishing by first week of May, fixture lists, no more re-instatement, discipline handled by SFA etc. The WRJFA would effectively morph into a WoSFL, and it would also need to be open to allowing SoSFL clubs, Glasgow Uni plus any other interested applicants to apply at the appropriate level from the outset.  The same if they want to bring the NRJFA on board with them.

If that happens the requirement for the SJFA to continue to exist is gone anyway. I’m not sure TJ will be happy with that.

[ShrimpLok]

25 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

On that particular point re the West Region moving wholesale into the Pyramid at tier 6, I think the PWG would be open to such a suggestion on the condition that the rules and regulations followed by the WRJFA were brought completely into line with that of the EoSFL, eg season finishing by first week of May, fixture lists, no more re-instatement, discipline handled by SFA etc. The WRJFA would effectively morph into a WoSFL, and it would also need to be open to allowing SoSFL clubs, Glasgow Uni plus any other interested applicants to apply at the appropriate level from the outset.  The same if they want to bring the NRJFA on board with them.

If that happens the requirement for the SJFA to continue to exist is gone anyway. I’m not sure TJ will be happy with that.

You could just about see a majority of West clubs agreeing to those changes. I'd imagine though the sticking point for the diehards will be compulsory promotion. I'm sure the SFA and LL will insist that licensed teams will have to agree to promotion to the LL and that would presumably be hard for Auchinleck et al to agree to. 

[FairWeatherFan]

15 minutes ago, ShrimpLok said:

You could just about see a majority of West clubs agreeing to those changes. I'd imagine though the sticking point for the diehards will be compulsory promotion. I'm sure the SFA and LL will insist that licensed teams will have to agree to promotion to the LL and that would presumably be hard for Auchinleck et al to agree to. 

Is a +1 majority all the west region needs to pass a motion? If it is the diehards might lose and then they either have to put up with the pyramid or become 'defectors' by setting up their own league

[AsimButtHitsASix]

51 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

On that particular point re the West Region moving wholesale into the Pyramid at tier 6, I think the PWG would be open to such a suggestion on the condition that the rules and regulations followed by the WRJFA were brought completely into line with that of the EoSFL, eg season finishing by first week of May, fixture lists, no more re-instatement, discipline handled by SFA etc. The WRJFA would effectively morph into a WoSFL, and it would also need to be open to allowing SoSFL clubs, Glasgow Uni plus any other interested applicants to apply at the appropriate level from the outset.  The same if they want to bring the NRJFA on board with them.

If that happens the requirement for the SJFA to continue to exist is gone anyway. I’m not sure TJ will be happy with that.

I'm not too savvy with the ins and outs of Dickensian era football and other archairc junior practises but wouldn't junior clubs be happy to get rid of re-instatement rather than forking out extra everytime they sign a player from outwith the Juniors?

[Pyramidic]

There are lots of documents and downloads on the Scottish Junior Football Association website.

http://www.scottishjuniorfa.com/sjfa/football_document_libraries.cfm?page=1721

In terms of transparency does anyone know where I can view on the website the minutes of last year's SJFA AGM and the minutes of the subsequent Management Meetings over the last 12 months. I may just be shortsighted!

The other thing that I cannot find is who are actually on the Scottish Junior Football Association Management Committee and what is the breakdown between paid employees and those on an honorarium?

It would be interesting to know the number of permanent staff that could be transferred over to the to the SFA in the event of amalgamation of the two organisations.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Pyramidic

[Burnie_man]

9 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I'm not too savvy with the ins and outs of Dickensian era football and other archairc junior practises but wouldn't junior clubs be happy to get rid of re-instatement rather than forking out extra everytime they sign a player from outwith the Juniors?

A simple vote at the AGM gets rid of it.  Nobody has ever proposed that.

[Burnie_man]

5 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

It would be interesting to know the number of permanent staff that could be transferred over to the to the SFA in the event of amalgamation of the two organisations.

Well only TJ is permanent staff and the SFA won't need him.   A WoSFL will operate just as the EoSFL does with a Management Board, no full time positions required.

You wont find minutes online anywhere.

[ShrimpLok]

27 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Is a +1 majority all the west region needs to pass a motion? If it is the diehards might lose and then they either have to put up with the pyramid or become 'defectors' by setting up their own league

"If the status quo is moved and seconded, then the matter will be determined by a simple majority vote and will be deemed to be the will of the Region."

Pretty much yes. process for submitting motions is very complicated but once an issue comes down to a vote it is a simple majority that wins. 

Nothing new can be proposed at this year's AGM as motions have to be in before the end of April. Reinstatement, discipline etc would presumably be decisions that the West Region couldn't make alone. 

I suspect the principle of compulsory promotion (and thus loss of Junior status) would also need some changes to the national rule book as well as just the west region. 

[Stag Nation]

11 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

There are lots of documents and downloads on the Scottish Junior Football Association website.

http://www.scottishjuniorfa.com/sjfa/football_document_libraries.cfm?page=1721

In terms of transparency does anyone know where I can view on the website the minutes of last year's SJFA AGM and the minutes of the subsequent Management Meetings over the last 12 months. I may just be shortsighted!

The other thing that I cannot find is who are actually on the Scottish Junior Football Association Management Committee and what is the breakdown between paid employees and those on an honorarium?

It would be interesting to know the number of permanent staff that could be transferred over to the to the SFA in the event of amalgamation of the two organisations.

I don't think they do transparency. 

The list of committee members is hidden away in the Constitution and Rules booklet, listed under "Downloads".

The minutes are probably written in longhand with a quill pen, and not available electronically.

Why would the SFA want to employ any of them, except maybe the wifie who makes the tea?

[Pyramidic]

14 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Well only TJ is permanent staff and the SFA won't need him.   A WoSFL will operate just as the EoSFL does with a Management Board, no full time positions required.

You wont find minutes online anywhere.

I do not know TJ from Adam. In my view it would be better to find a high profile post in the SFA - such as Non League Liaison Executive Manager - than to continue with the current debacle. It is better to build a strong bridge.

It is the year 2018 and in my view the inability to publish important SJFA minutes online is inexcusable and should be questioned at the AGM on Saturday.

Why on earth should they be confidential? Also, why cannot the SJFA Management be listed within the main menu of the website to ensure accountability?

Edited June 11, 2018 by Pyramidic

[Dreghorn]

Looks like the writing is on the wall for WoS junior football reading between TJ’s lines.

To say he did not see the EastbJuniors’ defection coming is the understatement of the football century.  Now that the exodus has started there is no way back.  However why can’t the LL be abolished and replaced by a Western League and an Eastern League each of 4 divisions and an enlarged Highland League taking in the Highland and Tayside Juniors.  

Alternatively allow for at least 4 clubs to gain promotion to the LL, one from each region and a playoff among the runners up.

[Kernovian]

15 minutes ago, Dreghorn said:

Looks like the writing is on the wall for WoS junior football reading between TJ’s lines.

To say he did not see the EastbJuniors’ defection coming is the understatement of the football century.  Now that the exodus has started there is no way back.  However why can’t the LL be abolished and replaced by a Western League and an Eastern League each of 4 divisions and an enlarged Highland League taking in the Highland and Tayside Juniors.  

Alternatively allow for at least 4 clubs to gain promotion to the LL, one from each region and a playoff among the runners up.

3

 

Because the SPFL won't accept more than two feeder leagues at tier5. However, this decision is predicated upon there previously not being a decent, strong league for SPFL relegatees to drop into, except for the HFL. Once there's full ex-Junior participation and enough time has ensured that the creme-de-la-creme has risen to the top in the LFL, then, and only then, might a petition to increase to three tier5 feeders be (maybe) found alluring to the SPFL.

[drs]

3 hours ago, gogsy said:

So three parallel regional divisions (conferences?), with the best teams remaining in the East juniors  perhaps not playing each other in league games ever again. Somebody is going to get a migraine.

Probably the poor b*****d that has to explain how it works to @Nugent4nil 

[drs]

 

1 hour ago, Dreghorn said:

Looks like the writing is on the wall for WoS junior football reading between TJ’s lines.

To say he did not see the EastbJuniors’ defection coming is the understatement of the football century.  Now that the exodus has started there is no way back.  However why can’t the LL be abolished and replaced by a Western League and an Eastern League each of 4 divisions and an enlarged Highland League taking in the Highland and Tayside Juniors.  

Alternatively allow for at least 4 clubs to gain promotion to the LL, one from each region and a playoff among the runners up.

Junior clubs sat on their arses for the best part of half a decade, the attitude that some exude thinking that they can still come along and set the parameters of all non-league football is laughable. 

[parsforlife]

Lack of licensed clubs is a bigger issue than spfl approval(although that is still a hurdle that needs changed) its possible next year would see us reach the tipping point that has twice as many LL region teams licenced vs HL, however even if we reach that point, given most of these sides will be east based then I'd think the LL would more likely be given stronger weighting for promotion(possibly 1st, 2nd LL, HL champion and club 42 in the play-offs) instead of having two tier 5 leagues. West teams can only get their preferred outcome of a tier 5 league for themselves if they go out and show they have the structures in place.