Junior football, what is the future?

[lowenan]

On 5/22/2018 at 23:21, Burnie_man said:

"EAST REGION SJFA - composition of leagues 2018-19:

Super League

Linlithgow Rose
Dundonald Bluebell
Broxburn Athletic
Penicuik Athletic
Lochee United
Bo’ness United
Broughty Athletic
Sauchie
Newtongrange Star
Carnoustie Panmure
Jeanfield Swifts
Kennoway Star Hearts
Forfar West End
Fauldhouse United
Tayport
Thornton Hibs

North Division

Dundee North End
Luncarty
Dundee Violet
Kinnoull
East Craigie
Scone Thistle
Blairgowrie
Lochee Harp
Arbroath Vics
Coupar Angus
Brechin Vics
Newburgh
Forfar Albion
St Andrews United
Kirriemuir Thistle

South Division

Pumpherston Juniors
Armadale Thistle
Oakley United
West Calder United
Lochgelly Albert
Harthill Royal
Rosyth
Livingston United
Stoneyburn Juniors
Kirkcaldy YM
Arniston Rangers
Bathgate Thistle
Whitburn Juniors
Glenrothes
Lochore Welfare

Four clubs relegated from Super League next season, two promoted from the North and South Leagues"

What will the East Junior Leagues look like now?

[Junior_Arab]

2 minutes ago, lowenan said:

What will the East Junior Leagues look like now?

Like this. Except pisher. 

[ShrimpLok]

On 6/2/2018 at 22:17, FairWeatherFan said:

Going by the league table I was basing it they'd only highlighted the bottom 3 of the Premier League. That'd make things clear cut for the 3x12 format then.

EDIT: Unless i'm missing something obvious to those more familiar with the areas.

 

27 minutes ago, lowenan said:

What will the East Junior Leagues look like now?

Presumably something like the above.

Another option would be to not relegate Bathgate Thistle, make Dundee NE and Pumpherston play off for a single Super League place and if Dundee NE won additionally re-allocate Kinnoull Juniors from North Division to South Division. 

Or you could go 14-12-10 with 14 in Superleague (not relegating Bathgate or Whitburn), 12 in north and 10 in south.

Or 16-10-10 with Luncarty and Armadale promoted as well and only Kirriemuir relegated. This option would also need Kinnoull to move from north to south. 

[Ginaro]

Meanwhile those in the west are looking east and seeing that a WoS league might not be a bad thing...

 

[Robert James]

20 hours ago, ShrimpLok said:

Yeah I've just read the SJFA Constitution and that is the only bit that mentions the 12 months. Seems very unlikely it would apply to clubs leaving and if action has not previously been taken against clubs folding (Lewis United), going into abeyance (Inverness City) or leaving (Kelty last year) then you can't really threaten the clubs going to EOS under those regulations. 

 

Agreed.  I would also reiterate that in addition to Kelty Hearts (2017), the following JUNIOR clubs, left the "Grade" to join the seniors :-

Cove Rangers  (1986)  Inverurie Locos  (2000)  Turriff United  (2009)  Strathspey Thistle  (2009)  Formartine United  (2009), all from the Juniors  North Region to the Highland League.

No one heard anything about giving a years notice, as far as I can remember.

[The Moonster]

4 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Meanwhile those in the west are looking east and seeing that a WoS league might not be a bad thing...

 

Haud on, teams don't even know who they're playing this weekend?

 

[Ginaro]

Just now, The Moonster said:

Haud on, teams don't even know who they're playing this weekend?

Maybe a slight exaggeration as I think all of the fixtures have finally been issued, but not without a late change!

 

[The Moonster]

What a shambles. Amazing that folk are fighting to defend this shit.

[MEADOWXI]

2 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

As has been pointed out on many occasions, joining the league is by application. No-one has applied - that doesn't mean it's closed. There are contingency plans for when the league exceeds 20 members.

It is closed if they are defeating the purposes of the pyramid by their licensing rules, and teams initially would not be joining the HL, they would be joining a league that is a level below with the possibility of promotion to the HL in the manner the the East teams have joined the EoSL with the possibility of promotion to the LL, without the requirement for exisiting licensing, it is something to work towards.

[Kernovian]

2 hours ago, Marten said:

If any north of Tay clubs are serious about joining the pyramid, they should all team up and collectively apply to the HL. That will result in either the league rejecting them and giving them a case to complain to the SFA about being excluded from the pyramid or accepting them and forcing the HL to split in a premier and first division, in which case the latter can eventually be filled up with more juniors/NCL clubs and effectively moving all north clubs into the pyramid.

Sent from my SM-J510FN using Pie and Bovril mobile app
 

 

The SHFL do have a barely mentioned advisement from the SFA  (5 or so years ago) that should they not 'play ball', the SFA would  replace them as a tier 5 League with an SFA NoSFL - to which their interested clubs could apply, alongside any other interested and (getting) licenced clubs. I do not know if this was rescinded at all?

Edited June 8, 2018 by Kernovian

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Maybe a slight exaggeration as I think all of the fixtures have finally been issued, but not without a late change!
 

Its absolutely mental that Darvel are being allowed to skip this weekend. The good thing is clubs like Darvel and the others who skipped games for stag dos and going to ayr races can be left to do so in the junior game and the other clubs can go on and run things properly.

[Vollyman]

49 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Agreed.  I would also reiterate that in addition to Kelty Hearts (2017), the following JUNIOR clubs, left the "Grade" to join the seniors :-

Cove Rangers  (1986)  Inverurie Locos  (2000)  Turriff United  (2009)  Strathspey Thistle  (2009)  Formartine United  (2009), all from the Juniors  North Region to the Highland League.

No one heard anything about giving a years notice, as far as I can remember.

The 12 month rule which relates to clubs moving to another region within junior football was passed at the 2016 SJFA AGM and was effective from 2016-2017 season

[Stag Nation]

4 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Its absolutely mental that Darvel are being allowed to skip this weekend. The good thing is clubs like Darvel and the others who skipped games for stag dos and going to ayr races can be left to do so in the junior game and the other clubs can go on and run things properly.

Posters have asked many times for examples of what makes the junior grade great. At last we have an example - it's the ability to cancel a game at short notice so that the players can go on a piss-up, with no regard for the inconvenience to other teams and supporters.

The SFA should ban them for bringing the game into disrepute.  And also fine the league, for allowing it.

 

[Jacksgranda]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

The issue as I see it in the North is that you can’t join the HFL as it stands unless you are Licenced and have floodlights, but you can’t get a Licence unless you commit to joining the Pyramid (define commit?) and an entry level Licence doesn’t require floodlights.

The SFA need to clean this up, the first step of course is creating the environment where you can work towards a Licence out with the HFL, and this has to be via a new NoSFL.  The floodlight rule also needs clarifying/relaxing, the LL do not have a similar rule at the same tier 5 level.  Either an entry level Licence is suffiencient as it stands for tier 5 entry, or it isn’t.

It doesn't get as dark so early dahn saff.

I suppose it would mean clubs with no floodlights would kick off earlier in the autumn/winter on a Saturday - (1.00 - 1.30 pm?) - but they'd be kind of stymied for mid week fixtures

[Robert James]

5 hours ago, Cameron Wilson said:

After being absolutely fascinated by the moves from Junior to EOS league, I've been reading this forum for the past couple of months or so everyday to keep up with developments.  In part due to the almost total lack of any info elsewhere, as usual the media's more bothered about Stevie G's haircut than the most significant change in the fabric of Scottish football for years.  anyway, thought I should contribute rather than just being a voyeur.

Full disclosure - I have never been to a Junior game or other non-league game in Scotland. And, I think a pyramid system of some kind for all of Scottish football should have been established  a long time ago.

After reading this thread and the new clubs in the EOS thread in great detail, what strikes me most is the lack of recognition for the cultural aspects of the Junior game. These guys are the absolute heart and soul of football. They simply love football in its purest form - just football. No hype. No big names. No big competitions. No basking in the glory of a big club. No TV. No big stadiums or crowds. Just local football. If we didn't have guys like this, the game as a whole would not exist. I can understand some of the disappointment at some Junior clubs' reluctance to be part of the rest of Scottish football. But it's understandable. They don't want their purism to be diluted by having to be distracted by the obligations that come with moving up the pyramid. They simply want to focus on playing football in their regions. For me I can't respect these guys enough even if I think some can't see their own value in joining the rest of the Scottish game properly. The true spirit of Juniors is something we can all, as football fans, admire. I agree with the other posters, I don't think its totally unique to the Juniors, it's the same around other non-league competitions for the most part. But the Junior cup itself is something of great tradition and value. I think it should be opened up to all non-league clubs.

As for the way ahead for the Juniors. I think it's unfortunate what's happened with the mass exodus to the EOS. But that appears to be clearly a result of the Junior FA's failing. They appear to be stalling. Five years after the Pyramid discussions started, they're no further forward. Kelty deserve a lot of praise for being brave enough to be the first to make the leap and actually do something rather than just the endless talking of the SJFA. 

I think the clear way ahead is for the West Juniors to come under the Pyramid asap. Then there's no absolute need for a new separate WoSL. The structure and management is all there already in the we. I understand the likes of Achinleck aren't interesting in moving up the Pyramid. That's totally fair enough. But it's not right for other clubs to be held back. There's nothing wrong with making promotion optional at lower levels of the Pyramid. Then all clubs can find their level and the stronger teams can make a more direct contribution to the entire league system. I have never understood why the bigger junior teams, who obviously play, and attract crowds, at a standard similar to at least League 2, aren't part of the Scottish league. Scottish football is too small not to have everyone on the same page. I also think its best if all Junior clubs come under the pyramid. Otherwise there's always going to be a lingering instability from time to time of clubs' situations changing, leading them to consider changing grade to go senior. In short I don't see why the allure, romance and passion of Junior football has to vanish or be compromised by joining the Pyramid as a whole. Everyone can benefit.

One main problem right now is the non-League structure. Id suggest automatic relegation from League 2 as soon as possible with a play-off for second bottom. Because the Lowland League is soon going to have a decent number of teams willing and able to cut it at L2 level. The LL also has to open promotion and relegation right up to absorb the best the EOS and any WOS league have to offer. Quality teams have already made the jump to the senior system and its in everyones interest that they are able to move to their level sooner.

Anyway glad to join the debate, this post fair rambled on a bit.

 

Welcome to this forum. Your comments about the need for an integrated pyramid are appreciated. 

However, the Junior clubs are split, with the majority wanting pyramid football, and others not . There is nothing wrong with that, as has been demonstrated by some East Region junior clubs not joining the East of Scotland League yesterday. It is their choice.

What the SJFA is trying to do, is to join the pyramid, on its terms (only), and has snubbed the SFA to date. 

The other problem which prevents integration is the hostile attitude of some pro-junior posters (and the SJFA), who have been trying to prevent clubs from leaving and joining the senior non league pyramid. This attitude is highlighted by the comments posted on the Scottish JuniorFitba (see above). 

As a contrary view, look at the way in which the North Caledonian (senior) League presents itself. Not part of the pyramid because of the low population, its remoteness and adverse weather, it hasn't 'thrown its toys out of the pram', when some of its clubs have left to join the Highland League, namely, Wick Academy (1994), Fort William (1986), Brora Rangers (1963). Community support is essential in such far flung towns as Golspie , Thurso, Kirkwall, Halkirk, Helmsdale, Tain, Invergordon, etc. Even Lewis & Harris FC (Stornoway in the the Western Isles), and Shetland FC (Lerwick), manage to play in a few North Caledonian Cup competitions (only), against all the odds.

Look at the South of Scotland (senior) League. Part of the pyramid, with 14 clubs & 2 Reserve sides, existing in very rural Dumfries and Galloway. Do West junior clubs want to include these South clubs in their vision of a West pyramid feeder league ? Not so far !

When Alness United (another NCL club) applied to join the juniors a decade ago, they were rejected by the SJFA. Too remote perhaps ? 

So, in giving some balance to your original post, whilst I agree that the juniors have tradition, and mostly represent their communities,  they are 'on par' with the senior non league clubs, but not better.  And historically worse in being inclusive.

Please keep posting !

[Robert James]

13 minutes ago, Vollyman said:

The 12 month rule which relates to clubs moving to another region within junior football was passed at the 2016 SJFA AGM and was effective from 2016-2017 season

Yes to "another region within junior football" only.

[Squirrelhumper]

1 hour ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Its absolutely mental that Darvel are being allowed to skip this weekend. The good thing is clubs like Darvel and the others who skipped games for stag dos and going to ayr races can be left to do so in the junior game and the other clubs can go on and run things properly.

Game postponed so they can go on a stag do?!!!

That cannot be serious.

 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Game postponed so they can go on a stag do?!!!
That cannot be serious.
 

Oh god yes, there have been several clubs in recent years who’ve pulled this one.

[Jason King]

Apparently West Clubs, don't know if its national, are allowed to request a free weekend at some point during the season - Darvel asked for this weekend several months ago and then somebody decided to give them a fixture anyway.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Apparently West Clubs, don't know if its national, are allowed to request a free weekend at some point during the season - Darvel asked for this weekend several months ago and then somebody decided to give them a fixture anyway.

Thats an absolutely mental rule.