Junior football, what is the future?

[Killiepiyo]

3 hours ago, gogsy said:

To be fair its a better standard of commentary than  your videos. 

How about you make videos and come back to me about the standards 

[Killiepiyo]

3 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

You’re just scared you’ll have to switch clubs again aren’t you?

I know right? It’s unheard of for player, back room staff member, officials or person behind the scenes to take up a role at another club 

[AlanCamelonfan]

17 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

LOL!

Behaviour (not sure what behaviour you mean, by the way. Did someone have a different opinion from you?)  of a few people from the other side of the country on a messageboard confirms that it is right for Cameon Juniors to move from the East Region to the EoS.

Yes, that makes one whole lot of sense.

I think it' more if you read when I brought back my post from April.  It's not about agreying it' about the abuse that was said and it makes me glad we are away and come Thursday be east of scotland 

[Khufu2]

3 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

I think it' more if you read when I brought back my post from April.  It's not about agreying it' about the abuse that was said and it makes me glad we are away and come Thursday be east of scotland 

What abuse are you talking about? I've just looked at the thread and see no abuse.  I see a couple of queries about why a thread about the EoS is in the Juniors forum, which seem reasonable observations, but beyond that...???  Where's the abuse?  

[AsimButtHitsASix]

30 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

It depends on what you mean by "a higher level".

If you mean "higher up the pyramid" then there's no denying it . They are in the pyramid at tier 6 whereas the remaining juniors aren't in the pyramid.  But that means very little. The bottleneck means hardly anyone will move up to tier 5 where several of the east ex-juniors ought to be, given the quality of the generality of LL teams.

If you mean a higher level of football, I'm not so sure. It won't be an overall  higher level of football next season - it will be a lower level for existing Superleague teams  as you face ex-Premier Division, ex-South Division and EoS dross.

And after one season with the conference system the EoS Premier will be, at least, the same standard as what remains in the East Region Super. The East Region Super, in two years time, will have ex-South Division members. The East of Scotland Premier League might have but I'm gonna guess it's unlikely.

I can't keep track of who's applied to the EoS and who hasn't (anyone got a list handy so I can make a comparison?) but the top 16 teams in the EoS and ERJ will be much of a muchness on average but the best clubs will be in the EoS. In one years time, after the conference system puts everyone at the proper tier, there will, most likely, be further Junior refugees making the jump if they're south of the Tay and then "dross" like Newburgh might be realistically looking to reach the Super.

So, by higher level, I meant the standard of football.



 

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

It depends on what you mean by "a higher level".

If you mean "higher up the pyramid" then there's no denying it . They are in the pyramid at tier 6 whereas the remaining juniors aren't in the pyramid.  But that means very little. The bottleneck means hardly anyone will move up to tier 5 where several of the east ex-juniors ought to be, given the quality of the generality of LL teams.

If you mean a higher level of football, I'm not so sure. It won't be an overall  higher level of football next season - it will be a lower level for existing Superleague teams  as you face ex-Premier Division, ex-South Division and EoS dross.   In 2019-20 the top 16 teams in the EoS will be a mix of current Superleague and Premier League teams with maybe the odd traditional EoS team thrown in.  Where is the extra quality in that unless you are a fan of Dalkeith or Arniston or Dunbar in which case you might be playing better quality teams than you are used to?

Fans of clubs joining the pyramid at tier 6 sometimes seem be fooling themselves a little into what it is they are entering. If you are already in the Superleague you need to prepare yourself for poorer competition. Even escaping to the LL is no great improvement beyond the top 4 or 5 there. 

And you know all this how Khufu2? Have you played in the LL? Have you coached or managed in the LL? Have you watched a lot of games in the LL? 

I have done all of those and suggest that your understanding of just how much quality there is in the LL particularly, is greatly out of touch. 

Don't fall into the trap of using cup ties, friendlies and a gut feeling based on a poorly conceived idea that the LL has no quality, to make your opinion. 

As i said I've played/coached in the LL and watched LL games..... The standard is much, much better than you are making it out to be. 

The eosfl, regardless of its format next year, will be a fresh challenge for all the clubs.... There may be only 1 up but what clubs have is a better and more exciting than what they would have had if they remained.

What is going to be deemed more exciting by fans, sponsors and the media next season and beyond? The same old tired league structure, with the same teams, all maintaining the status quo (Barring a few who progress).... Or a league set up with new teams, new direction and new challenges?...... I wonder...... 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Guest

[AlanCamelonfan]

15 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

What abuse are you talking about? I've just looked at the thread and see no abuse.  I see a couple of queries about why a thread about the EoS is in the Juniors forum, which seem reasonable observations, but beyond that...???  Where's the abuse?  

That' because you are a thick scumbag who ignomes the facts to try and wind people up. You are a waste of oxygen. If you weren't like that you would see it pointed out in my posts eg Tayside whitburn bathgate Fauldhouse etc are junior clubs.  You have one sad life man. 

[Khufu2]

9 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

That' because you are a thick scumbag who ignomes the facts to try and wind people up. You are a waste of oxygen. ...  You have one sad life man. 

This is the one who is glad his club is joining the EoS because he alleges he gets abuse from people who live in the west.

After that, I hope (insert the name of any West junior club) never joins the SFA Pyramid because someone with a club in the EoS was once abusive towards me.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Khufu2

[AsimButtHitsASix]

3 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

 

The eosfl, regardless of its format next year, will be a fresh challenge for all the clubs.... There may be only 1 up but what clubs have is a better and more exciting than what they would have had if they remained.

 

Is it confirmed as only 1 up next year?

In any case let's compare what's on offer for a club switching from the Super to the EoS:

Super: 16 clubs fighting for one title. No promotion.
EoS: 39 clubs fighting for three titles. One promotion

In the EoS here are three "titles" to go for. Winning whatever conference yer in will feel like a league title in any case after a long season. Obviously a club can't win more than one, the same as the Super, but having three leagues running, each with their own title race and "promotion" and "relegation" scraps as clubs try and end up in as high a tier as possible for 2019/20 is a lot more exciting that just having one title to aim for, no promotion and a coupla relegation spots. Then, at seasons end, some play off between three high calibre clubs fighting it out in a chance for promotion.

Also for unlicensed clubs there are two different ways for EoS clubs to get entry to the Scottish. Winning the league or the cup for unlicensed clubs (Alex Jack trophy or something?). For clubs in the Super there are two ways as well by either winning the Super or the Juniror Cup. Presuming there to be an equivalency in winning the Super or EoS league the 2nd route into the Scottish Cup is far easier, and less costly, than the Junior Cup. It might not have the romance or pedigree or history but it's a lot more practical.

Even taking away the benefits in gaining grants and improving clubs grounds, community work, etc., as a fan, is there not a bit of excitement at having over 69 possible opponents between the league and cup and having some new away days to look forward to?



 

[Guest]

Not to my knowledge, they won't decide until they have a meeting AGM or otherwise.... Unless khufu can post a link to minutes or an article for confirmation..... I'd take it with the desired pinch of salt... 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Guest

[Khufu2]

1 minute ago, G4Mac said:

Not to my knowledge, they won't decide until they have a meeting AGM or otherwise.... Unless khufu can post a link to minutes or an article for confirmation..... I'd take it with the desired pinch of salt... 

They've already had their AGM. The only possibility now is an EGM where clubs will be invited to relegate more of their number. 

Can't see it happening somehow.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

They've already had their AGM. The only possibility now is an EGM where clubs will be invited to relegate more of their number. 

Can't see it happening somehow.

Is this the eosfl AGM that takes place this thursday? For any more places another meeting will take place between the LL, sos and eosfl to set up..... Which will happen..... It would be silly not to. 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Guest

[AsimButtHitsASix]

8 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

They've already had their AGM. The only possibility now is an EGM where clubs will be invited to relegate more of their number. 

Can't see it happening somehow.

It happened before when they were invited to relegate clubs and bring the EoS and SoS leagues as feeders at tier six.

It happens in other countries all the time. It's happened in Scotland before and will again. Maybe it's a senior/junior thing but clubs generally view these things a bit longer term rather than "Oh no! We might get relegated this year if there's an extra place!"

[Craig fae the Vale]

The Lowland League AGM has indeed happened, but very little has been made public. Could it be, shock horror, that they're waiting on EoSL and SoSL AGM to ratify proposals before making any public statements regarding promotion etc? Because that's very much what the one public statement that was made suggested

[FairWeatherFan]

15 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Is this the eosfl AGM that takes place this thursday? For any more places another meeting will take place between the LL, sos and eosfl to set up..... Which will happen..... It would be silly not to. 

The LL/SOS/EOS meeting monthly. Promotion & relegation will have been discussed.

EoS Secretary & LL Secretary are the same person. 

Until a format is officially agreed by the EoS you can't determine how promotion & relegation will work in 2018-19. Plus they'll have a mind on 2019-20 and any introduction of a WoS league.

Khufu's just trying to troll creating a divide between the LL/EOS, when they are mainly the same people working on the common goal of a pyramid for decades.

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, Khufu2 said:

It depends on what you mean by "a higher level".

If you mean "higher up the pyramid" then there's no denying it . They are in the pyramid at tier 6 whereas the remaining juniors aren't in the pyramid.  But that means very little. The bottleneck means hardly anyone will move up to tier 5 where several of the east ex-juniors ought to be, given the quality of the generality of LL teams.

If you mean a higher level of football, I'm not so sure. It won't be an overall  higher level of football next season - it will be a lower level for existing Superleague teams  as you face ex-Premier Division, ex-South Division and EoS dross.   In 2019-20 the top 16 teams in the EoS will be a mix of current Superleague and Premier League teams with maybe the odd traditional EoS team thrown in.  Where is the extra quality in that unless you are a fan of Dalkeith or Arniston or Dunbar in which case you might be playing better quality teams than you are used to?

Fans of clubs joining the pyramid at tier 6 sometimes seem be fooling themselves a little into what it is they are entering. If you are already in the Superleague you need to prepare yourself for poorer competition. Even escaping to the LL is no great improvement beyond the top 4 or 5 there. 

It is baffling as to why this junior v senior  diatribe is still going on regarding the EoSL's expansion. It is happening. It doesn't help promote an integrated non league system, which is in Scottish football's best interest. Few would argue with that. This ongoing angst is tedious and repetitive, so let's move on, please.

In a year's time we will know if the EoSL changes have been successful or not, opinions & dissent won't matter. My prediction is that :

* attendances for transferees will increase

* club sponsorship will be enhanced

* a majority of the ex-junior clubs will be licensed

* ground improvements will have taken place, or be planned

* the Scottish FA Cup matches for new clubs (Bonnyrigg, Linlithgow, LTHV,  AN others) will have been popular with supporters (and players)

* league organisation and fixture management will be far better

* attracting/retaining good players will have been easier

* the 3 conference (transitional) EoSFL arrangement will be applauded retrospectively as imaginative and fair

* other junior clubs will review their position, taking into account how much of above has occurred, or not, depending on the actual outcomes. 

But of course, I may be totally wrong !

I personally would like this forum to turn its attention to discuss the future of Junior clubs in the West, the North and Tayside,

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Robert James

[heedthebaa]

@Khufu2

[ShrimpLok]

On 5/8/2018 at 20:17, Khufu2 said:

I was just thinking about the quality of clubs remaining in the East Juniors, in contrast to those who have bolted.

Ranking the clubs 1-48 by their current positions (points per game) and discounting the North section which isn't providing any clubs to the EOS then this is the outcome

Probable East Junior top division 2018-19 with their 2017-18 positions

2    Linlithgow Rose
3    Penicuik Athletic
4    Dundonald Bluebell
5    Broxburn Athletic
6    Lochee United
7    Bo'ness United
8    Broughty Athletic
11    Sauchie Juniors
12    Carnoustie Panmure
13    Newtongrange Star
14    Jeanfield Swifts
15    Kennoway Star Hearts
16    Forfar West End
18    Fauldhouse United
21    Tayport
22    Thornton Hibs
 

Average position 11

 

EOS 2018-19

1    Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic    
9    Hill of Beath Hawthorn    
10    Camelon Juniors    
17    Musselburgh Athletic    
19    Haddington Athletic    
20    Blackburn United    
25    Tranent Juniors    
29    Dalkeith Thistle    
34    Edinburgh United    
39    Crossgates Primrose    
44    Easthouses Lily Miners Welfare    
 

Average position 22.5

And remember, these clubs are actually strengthening(!) the EOS.

 

53 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

And after one season with the conference system the EoS Premier will be, at least, the same standard as what remains in the East Region Super. The East Region Super, in two years time, will have ex-South Division members. The East of Scotland Premier League might have but I'm gonna guess it's unlikely.

I can't keep track of who's applied to the EoS and who hasn't (anyone got a list handy so I can make a comparison?) but the top 16 teams in the EoS and ERJ will be much of a muchness on average but the best clubs will be in the EoS. In one years time, after the conference system puts everyone at the proper tier, there will, most likely, be further Junior refugees making the jump if they're south of the Tay and then "dross" like Newburgh might be realistically looking to reach the Super.

So, by higher level, I meant the standard of football.



 

Luckily for us Khufu2 came up with a ranking system for the teams leaving but he's forgotten to update it since 8th May. here's an updated version  including all the former East Juniors:

East Junior 2018-19 with 2017-18 positions

6     Lochee United  
10     Broughty Athletic  
12     Carnoustie Panmure  
15     Kennoway Star Hearts  
16     Forfar West End  
18     Fauldhouse United  
20     Tayport  
22     Thornton Hibs  
25     Glenrothes  
26     Downfield  
29     Bathgate Thistle  
31     Whitburn Juniors  
32     Kirriemuir Thistle  
33     Pumpherston Juniors  
35     Armadale Thistle  
41     West Calder United  
43     Lochgelly Albert  
47     Harthill Royal  
51     Rosyth  
55     Livingston United  
57     Stoneyburn Juniors  
59     Kirkcaldy YM  
33     Dundee North End  
35     Luncarty  
37     Dundee Violet  
39     Kinnoull  
41     East Craigie  
43     Scone Thistle  
45     Blairgowrie  
47     Lochee Harp  
49     Lochore Welfare  
51     Arbroath Vics  
53     Coupar Angus  
55     Brechin Vics  
57     Newburgh  
59     Forfar Albion    

Average position 37

EOS 2018-19 with 2017-18 positions

1     Bonnyrigg Rose  
2     Linlithgow Rose  
3     Penicuik Athletic  
4     Dundonald Bluebell  
5     Broxburn Athletic  
7     Hill of Beath Hawthorn  
8     Boness United  
9     Camelon Juniors  
11     Newtongrange Star  
13     Sauchie Juniors  
14     Jeanfield Swifts  
17     Musselburgh Athletic  
19     Haddington Athletic  
21     Blackburn United  
23     Dunbar United  
24     Tranent Juniors  
27     St Andrews United  
28     Arniston Rangers  
30     Dalkeith Thistle  
37     Edinburgh United  
39     Oakley United  
45     Crossgates Primrose  
49     Craigroyston  
53     Easthouses Lily MW  

Average position 20

Looks like the teams leaving are about twice as good as those staying on average. 
 

[Truthteller]

13 minutes ago, Robert James said:

It is baffling as to why this junior v senior  diatribe is still going on regarding the EoSL's expansion. It is happening. It doesn't help promote an integrated non league system, which is in Scottish football's best interest. Few would argue with that. This ongoing angst is tedious and repetitive, so let's move on, please.

In a year's time we will know if the EoSL changes have been successful or not, opinions & dissent won't matter. My prediction is that :

* attendances for transferees will increase

* club sponsorship will be enhanced

* a majority of the ex-junior clubs will be licensed

* ground improvements will have taken place, or be planned

* the Scottish FA Cup matches for new clubs (Bonnyrigg, Linlithgow, LTHV,  AN others) will have been popular with supporters (and players)

* league organisation and fixture management will be far better

* attracting/retaining good players will have been easier

* the 3 conference (transitional) EoSFL arrangement will be applauded retrospectively as imaginative and fair

* other junior clubs will review their position, taking into account how much of above has occurred, or not, depending on the actual outcomes. 

But of course, I may be totally wrong !

I personally would like this forum to turn its attention to discuss the future of Junior clubs in the West, the North and Tayside,

 

It would also be appropriate for these EOS structure debates to be moved to the EOS pie and Bovril forum

[Khufu2]

26 minutes ago, ShrimpLok said:

 

Luckily for us Khufu2 came up with a ranking system for the teams leaving but he's forgotten to update it since 8th May. here's an updated version  including all the former East Juniors:
.....
Looks like the teams leaving are about twice as good as those staying on average. 
 

Oh dear. Why are you  incapable of understanding plain English?

No one is comparing the quality next season of those who have gone with those who remain. The argument was that from next season ex-junior clubs will be playing at a higher level in the EoS (in terms of quality of opposition) than they had done previously. Next season the top clubs will be playing a ragbag of ex-Superleague, ex-Premier, ex-South and EoS teams. A decline in quality of opposition. The following season the top division will probably include clubs which in SJFA East days were pretty mediocre Premier Division sides. Again, a decline in quality of opposition.

Put simply, they have left behind some good opposition to be replaced by some pretty mediocre opposition.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Khufu2