Junior football, what is the future?

[GordonS]

23 minutes ago, GordonS said:

How did Ross County, Caley Thistle, Elgin, Peterhead, Annan and Gretna get into the SFL?

Because it wasn't on performance. 

It's perfectly reasonable when developing a new structure to hand-pick clubs based on what they bring to the table, then let promotion and relegation sort things out after.

I find the lack of respect for by far the biggest non-league clubs in Scotland both disappointing and amusing. The communities behind those clubs have earned the right to more respect through a century and more of thankless dedication. Some people just seem to be annoyed by the fact that, with very few exceptions, the biggest non-league clubs in Scotland are currently West Region Juniors.

But respect aside, it's tactically stupid not to even attempt to woo those big West clubs. Nothing would put more oomph into the pyramid than the likes of Talbot joining it, so I hope the PWG and others are being more diplomatic than those on here who seem keen to shove them as far down as possible for no clear reason.

Ironically, that got a red dot from an Elgin fan.

Elgin finished 9th in the Highland League the season they were admitted to the SFL, behind Keith, Fraserburgh, Buckie, Peterhead, Huntly, Forres, Clach and Cove.

But aye, only sporting merit can be considered when a new division is being created 

[FairWeatherFan]

11 minutes ago, GordonS said:

How did Ross County, Caley Thistle, Elgin, Peterhead, Annan and Gretna get into the SFL?

Because it wasn't on performance. 

It's perfectly reasonable when developing a new structure to hand-pick clubs based on what they bring to the table, then let promotion and relegation sort things out after.

I find the lack of respect for by far the biggest non-league clubs in Scotland both disappointing and amusing. The communities behind those clubs have earned the right to more respect through a century and more of thankless dedication. Some people just seem to be annoyed by the fact that, with very few exceptions, the biggest non-league clubs in Scotland are currently West Region Juniors.

But respect aside, it's tactically stupid not to even attempt to woo those big West clubs. Nothing would put more oomph into the pyramid than the likes of Talbot joining it, so I hope the PWG and others are being more diplomatic than those on here who seem keen to shove them as far down as possible for no clear reason.

It's been 5 years and counting. When the Lowland League was in the discussion phase the SJFA was involved and as a body seem to have scaremongered their membership into believing that the SFA pyramid wasn't for them.

After dicussions fell through between all the organisations, the newly created Lowland League's first season stuck with just 12 clubs. Other applicants were turned down in the hopes that some bigger junior clubs would join. They didn't.

Since then the likes of LTHV and Leith Athletic have all been denied promotions on the basis they didn't meet licencing. Other clubs that had applied to to join the Lowland League were denied during the open application phase it operated. Even this year either St. Bernard's or Musselburgh Windsor were told not to apply for the EoSFL as their ground wouldn't meet the required standard.

Tier 6 is open for the West of Scotland as the SoSFL don't fancy being a feeder to the entire geographic area. The SFA/Senior organisations acknowledge this fact and are working to fill that void. Again the SJFA are involved in those initial discussions of what that would look like.

Tier 6 is open in the East of Scotland because the EoSFL are doing everything they can to accommodate interested parties for a transitional season. They don't want the bigger clubs to be stuck behind an additional tier if it can be helped.

Plenty of respect has been paid to the bigger clubs in Junior football. They just haven't been interested.

[GordonS]

11 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Plenty of respect has been paid to the bigger clubs in Junior football.

I just strongly disagree, and I'm not aware of examples of it.

[Black & Red Socks]

I just strongly disagree, and I'm not aware of examples of it.

Surely this is a two way street? Where is the respect for the likes of Dalkeith and Blackburn and the hard working men and women behind them who have thanklessly strived to keep football alive in their communities over many decades? In this regard they are in no way different to the ‘bigger’ clubs you want respect for yet, along with other clubs looking to make strides in the East Region, they are mercilessly denigrated by several posters on here. It really is poor, poor stuff.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

28 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I just strongly disagree, and I'm not aware of examples of it.

1. Being involved in the initial discussions of the Lowland League.
2. The offer of the SJFA at Tier 6. Twice, during the initial discussions and supposedly guaranteed more recently according to TJ himself.
3. The offer to retain the name of the Scottish Junior Cup.
4. The Lowland League being restricted to the lowest possible number of clubs to allow for Junior clubs to enter.
5. Hey, if you want a licence now you have to commit to the pyramid. Nudge, nudge,wink, wink, take the hint and get in here already.
6. Kelty being allowed to be a late applicatn to the EoS last year.
7. The EoS guaranteeing Tier 6 status for all applicants for the 2018-19 season.
8. The SFA PWG listening and confirming that the West of Scotland feeder to the Lowland League will be looked at and are involving the SJFA in the make up of that solution.
9. EDIT: Clydebank having a deferred application accepted to the EoS when quite clearly they are a West of Scotland club.
10. EDIT: The EoS offering to help establish a WoSFL at Tier 6 for those interested.

None of those are an example of respect being paid to the junior football clubs?

Edited May 26, 2018 by FairWeatherFan

[FairWeatherFan]

Another club considering the circumstances.

If you're a East Region club put in an application. Even if you're North of the Tay, at least you'll get some answers on where you stand.

If you're in the West Region put in an application. Clydebank have a deferred application, Dunipace have been accepted.

Go all in and get it sorted.

Edited May 26, 2018 by FairWeatherFan

[GordonS]

25 minutes ago, Black & Red Socks said:

Surely this is a two way street? Where is the respect for the likes of Dalkeith and Blackburn and the hard working men and women behind them who have thanklessly strived to keep football alive in their communities over many decades? In this regard they are in no way different to the ‘bigger’ clubs you want respect for yet, along with other clubs looking to make strides in the East Region, they are mercilessly denigrated by several posters on here. It really is poor, poor stuff.

I agree, but I see a hell of a lot more abuse going towards the Juniors than towards the seniors. 

20 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

1. Being involved in the initial discussions of the Lowland League.
2. The offer of the SJFA at Tier 6. Twice, during the initial discussions and supposedly guaranteed more recently according to TJ himself.
3. The offer to retain the name of the Scottish Junior Cup.
4. The Lowland League being restricted to the lowest possible number of clubs to allow for Junior clubs to enter.
5. Hey, if you want a licence now you have to commit to the pyramid. Nudge, nudge,wink, wink, take the hint and get in here already.
6. Kelty being allowed to be a late applicatn to the EoS last year.
7. The EoS guaranteeing Tier 6 status for all applicants for the 2018-19 season.
8. The SFA PWG listening and confirming that the West of Scotland feeder to the Lowland League will be looked at and are involving the SJFA in the make up of that solution.
9. EDIT: Clydebank having a deferred application accepted to the EoS when quite clearly they are a West of Scotland club.
10. EDIT: The EoS offering to help establish a WoSFL at Tier 6 for those interested.

None of those are an example of respect being paid to the junior football clubs?

1. If there had been an offer of an east and west LL, I suspect it would have been successful. But at the same time those discussions were taking place, the SPFL wanted a NATIONAL tier 5!

2. When was that offer made? Every comment here is that the SJFA should have no place in the pyramid, or at best tier 7.

3. Gee. Thanks for offering to leave along the only genuinely prestigious non-league competition in Scotland. How many open-top bus tours have been held for the senior non-league cup victories?

4. I thought 16 was the recommended number? Besides, do you really think leaving the WR Superleague for the LL as it stood would have been an improvement on any level for any club? Seriously?

5. Nudges and winks aren't respect. How about going to sit with the committees of clubs and asking "what would help you to get licensed? What are your concerns? What are the barriers? Should we consider changing the standards or creating a new entry level standard?"

6. I don't see how that counts as respect for the Juniors. In fact I see it as the opposite. It's a long-held precedent in football that clubs know what they're playing for at the start of each season. The current farcical collapse in the east means the majority of clubs in the ERSJFA don't know what division they'll be in next season, nor what results they need from their remaining games to get promoted or avoid relegation. I don't blame the EoS, the demand is coming from the Junior clubs, but I certainly don't regard it as respect. Also, it's nothing to do with the West.

7. See above.

8. I only have your word on what that means or what that offer entails.

9. See 6.

10. See 8.

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I agree, but I see a hell of a lot more abuse going towards the Juniors than towards the seniors. 

1. If there had been an offer of an east and west LL, I suspect it would have been successful. But at the same time those discussions were taking place, the SPFL wanted a NATIONAL tier 5!

2. When was that offer made? Every comment here is that the SJFA should have no place in the pyramid, or at best tier 7.

3. Gee. Thanks for offering to leave along the only genuinely prestigious non-league competition in Scotland. How many open-top bus tours have been held for the senior non-league cup victories?

4. I thought 16 was the recommended number? Besides, do you really think leaving the WR Superleague for the LL as it stood would have been an improvement on any level for any club? Seriously?

5. Nudges and winks aren't respect. How about going to sit with the committees of clubs and asking "what would help you to get licensed? What are your concerns? What are the barriers? Should we consider changing the standards or creating a new entry level standard?"

6. I don't see how that counts as respect for the Juniors. In fact I see it as the opposite. It's a long-held precedent in football that clubs know what they're playing for at the start of each season. The current farcical collapse in the east means the majority of clubs in the ERSJFA don't know what division they'll be in next season, nor what results they need from their remaining games to get promoted or avoid relegation. I don't blame the EoS, the demand is coming from the Junior clubs, but I certainly don't regard it as respect. Also, it's nothing to do with the West.

7. See above.

8. I only have your word on what that means or what that offer entails.

9. See 6.

10. See 8.

http://nonleaguematters.co.uk/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=6299;guest=68405259

http://www.clydebankfc.com/club-statement-3/

You can hunt for yourself the distributed version of TJ's emails saying he's got a guarantee for a minimum Tier 6 entry and the more recent WoSFL league will be looked into as part of further discussion.

I will specifically answer the response to 2 however. It's not every comment, quite clearly it isn't. The criticism of the SJFA is of the organisation not the clubs and most people confuse the two. All the SJFA does is run the Cup and the national team and very little besides. Those roles can be taken over by the SFA in an integrated pyramid. The ERSJFA, WRSJFAS & NRSJFA can continue either rebranded or integrated with the other senior leagues to create new regional bodies to run the leagues.

The only other role of significance that the SJFA as a body do is represent its membership on the likes of the PWG. TJ has been on working groups like this since at least 2005 and during that time there seems to have been very little communication to the membership of what's actually on offer. Then when there has been communication there seems to have been scaremongering leading to recurring jokes over £150k toilets. The SJFA acts out of self interest for the body and has failed in its duty of care to its membership aka the Clubs/the Juniors/Junior Clubs

Tier 6 is there for Junior clubs that want it, its been there all along. The SJFA just don't want you to know it because it means the blazers get left behind or risk redundancy through integration.

 

[parsforlife]

5. Nudges and winks aren't respect. How about going to sit with the committees of clubs and asking "what would help you to get licensed? What are your concerns? What are the barriers? Should we consider changing the standards or creating a new entry level standard?"
.

Fine let's hear your concerns. Have you got anything beyond £150k toilets, Elgin away and 'LL are all diddy teams', as these have all been dealt with.

want support in getting a licence? Great, let's have a look at what the pyramid system is already providing to its members.

Entry level standard can not be lowered any lower, to suggest it should be lowered to help arrogant west region teams is ridiculous.

[Jambo'ness]

8 hours ago, GordonS said:

Does anyone have an INFORMED opinion on whether, if either of Linlithgow or Bo'ness decided to join the EoS, the other would feel they had little choice but to follow? It may be that each can determine what the other will do.

The majority of the committee at our club were against moving, citing one main reason.  They did not want to lose the gate money from a game with their foes over the flints.  If Linlithgow choose to go, our committee no longer have that excuse to fall back on (not that I felt it held any substance).  They are probably talking to each other more than you realise, because yes, if one goes so will the other.  The danger being that they will wait for each other and end up doing nothing.

Events over the last few days have probably tipped the balance.  Nearly every centrally based Superleague side is now/have conducted meetings.

It's a shame that panic has caused clubs to sit up and take notice but the ends justify the means.

[Jambo'ness]

8 hours ago, Khufu2 said:

What happens in “Ayrshire and beyond” has absolutely no bearing on what has been happening in the east.  I’ve no idea why you think it relevant.

There are several East junior clubs worthy of “advancement” to the Lowland League. The fact that it looks as if most non-Tayside clubs will participate in the EoS next season is good. I welcome it. I approve of the establishment of proper wing of the pyramid. It will be better, though far from perfect, now that the cream in the east will rise to the top, albeit far more slowly than it ought - the bottleneck between tier 5 and 6 is far too narrow.

But it will be interesting to see what kind of Brave New World the likes of Blackburn and Dalkeith  find themselves in in 5 years time.

 

 

 

[jimmyg]

Looking increasing like the erjfa will be renamed tayside/Perth league !

[Jock Tamson]

Numbers are rapidly dwindling, St Andrews now look to be going too. What's the current situation with Tayport?

Talk that Downfield will now scrape into the Superleague. Not bad for a 10th place finish.

Turning a bit farcical now imo.

Moving forward, what will the options be for the East Superleague teams? Is a North of Scotland pyramid set up on the cards at all?

[surely not!]

Your team’s (Kelty Hearts) vice captain I thought you would know him he has scored over 40 goals for Kelty in the last 3 years good laddie comes from Armadale

As a striker? Playing in that kelty team? That’s an awful return. Although he didn’t get many at the dale either did he?

[cmontheloknow]

9 hours ago, GordonS said:

I agree, but I see a hell of a lot more abuse going towards the Juniors than towards the seniors. 

1. If there had been an offer of an east and west LL, I suspect it would have been successful. But at the same time those discussions were taking place, the SPFL wanted a NATIONAL tier 5!

2. When was that offer made? Every comment here is that the SJFA should have no place in the pyramid, or at best tier 7.

3. Gee. Thanks for offering to leave along the only genuinely prestigious non-league competition in Scotland. How many open-top bus tours have been held for the senior non-league cup victories?

4. I thought 16 was the recommended number? Besides, do you really think leaving the WR Superleague for the LL as it stood would have been an improvement on any level for any club? Seriously?

5. Nudges and winks aren't respect. How about going to sit with the committees of clubs and asking "what would help you to get licensed? What are your concerns? What are the barriers? Should we consider changing the standards or creating a new entry level standard?"

6. I don't see how that counts as respect for the Juniors. In fact I see it as the opposite. It's a long-held precedent in football that clubs know what they're playing for at the start of each season. The current farcical collapse in the east means the majority of clubs in the ERSJFA don't know what division they'll be in next season, nor what results they need from their remaining games to get promoted or avoid relegation. I don't blame the EoS, the demand is coming from the Junior clubs, but I certainly don't regard it as respect. Also, it's nothing to do with the West.

7. See above.

8. I only have your word on what that means or what that offer entails.

9. See 6.

10. See 8.

On point 1, I would disagree about a national tier 5 being a serious contender for anything. Going way back, it has been Div 4 N/S. I wrote to Gordon Smith when he was still in post at Hampden arguing for a 3 way split but he came back saying the only thing the national sides would accept was a 2 way split. I'd have said that was last decade, it was well before the LL formed anyway.

Edited May 27, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[Paco]

1. If there had been an offer of an east and west LL, I suspect it would have been successful. But at the same time those discussions were taking place, the SPFL wanted a NATIONAL tier 5!

 

 

The irony of this one of course being that the SJFA are desperately trying to cling on to the notion of a NATIONAL tier 6.

 

What a different a few years make.

[LongTimeLurker]

Latest on what happened with Bo'ness:

41 minutes ago, Aggy Doo said:

At the Nitten game yesterday the story was that nitten had had a meeting prior to the game and informed Bo`ness they were leaving the er to join the eos 

after a lot of frantic phone calls between Bo`ness Lithgie and Broxburn all agreed the best option  would be to join the EOS  which all teams concerned will have to be voted through at thee own personal meetings

also heard the EOS  are possibly going to split there leauge into 2 regionalised divisions for next season then the following season the 2 top halves of each regionalised leauge would form to make a superleauge

if all this comes of it sounds good to me

 

[superbigal]

Numbers are rapidly dwindling, St Andrews now look to be going too. What's the current situation with Tayport?

Talk that Downfield will now scrape into the Superleague. Not bad for a 10th place finish.

Turning a bit farcical now imo.

Moving forward, what will the options be for the East Superleague teams? Is a North of Scotland pyramid set up on the cards at all?

Tayport are in the believe what the hierarchy are saying camp.
A rumour suggested the St Andrews application would test the eos committee. Assume only geography could come into play.
Jeanfield seem to be suggesting something similar.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, Jock Tamson said:

Numbers are rapidly dwindling, St Andrews now look to be going too. What's the current situation with Tayport?

Talk that Downfield will now scrape into the Superleague. Not bad for a 10th place finish...

So far we have the following:

Bonnyrigg, Camelon, Hill of Beath, Musselburgh, Haddington, Blackburn, Tranent, Dalkeith, Edinburgh United, Easthouses, Crossgates [+Dunipace from west region] applied and accepted at the initial deadline along with a youth club from Inverkeithing

Dunbar, Craigroyston, Arniston and Penicuik accepted on Thursday at an EoS meeting at Easter Road

St Andrews, Newtongrange have held meetings on Friday and Saturday and have decided to go

Dundonald, Bo'ness, Lithgae, Broxburn and Thornton holding meetings and now expected to do the same

At this point they will probably need Pumpherston and Dundee North End from the south and north divisions in the superleague to reach 16 next season, if all those clubs leave.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, Jock Tamson said:

Numbers are rapidly dwindling, St Andrews now look to be going too. What's the current situation with Tayport?

Talk that Downfield will now scrape into the Superleague. Not bad for a 10th place finish.

Turning a bit farcical now imo.

Moving forward, what will the options be for the East Superleague teams? Is a North of Scotland pyramid set up on the cards at all?

All the North needs is for the SFA to order the HL to institute a one up one down promotion from the North Superleague. The structure for 5,6 and 7 is all there. If there's serious interest from the NCL they could be incorporated somehow later on. I suppose there's room for a third level 7 league for the South.

Edited May 27, 2018 by welshbairn