Junior football, what is the future?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Are you sure? Because it seems unlikely that they got 2,145 for the LL v HL play off, but only 655 for the bigger play-ff to get into the SPFL.
In my mind, clubs who can't attract more than a few score fans shouldn't be looking down on, or lording it over, clubs who draw hundreds for an average game and thousands for a final.

Glenafton took 25 fans to an away game two weeks ago, about 5 paid in, your statement above is somewhat diminished.

[Robert James]

40 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Indeed - top two North Juniors have floodlights, Dyce and Colony Park could play at Inverurie Locos, Culter aren't far from Banks O'Dee (their ground seems to have floodlight columns on one side pointing to an adjacent pitch!), Ellon are close to Formartine, Montrose Roselea have floodlights, etc.

Ex SFA Members Aberdeen University FC have floodlights and a decent ground at the Hillhead Centre.

[superbigal]

Quite interesting how the developments affect the like of my local club Tayport.
I know they voted yes for pyramid. I do not have any inside knowledge of current feelings so may ask a couple of committee I know tomorrow.
However if they were to join the eos they would have the most travelling by far.
On the flip side they now have free promotion to the super league, and at least 1 season of virtually a local league.
Certainly more tricky a decision for that geographical location

[Ivo den Bieman]

for the avoidance of doubt on play off finals:

Cove-Spartans (at Inverurie Locos) 850

Spartans v Cove : 655

Cove-Cowdenbeath  at Inverurie Locos): 1,000

Cowdenbeath-Cove : 1,762

when Montrose were involved in the first relegation play off in 2015, the crowd at Brora was thin (about 600 or so) but 2,380 turned up for the tie at Links Park.

self evidently the second leg semi final game at Ainslie Park was a dead rubber and cost a couple of hundred on the gate. Cove Rangers have always struggled for interest beyond 150 or so diehards in Aberdeen but maybe that will change now they are moving into a new stadium (and should progress into league two sooner rather than later). That's the consequence of trying to exist as a smaller club in a city dominated by one famous old team at the very top of the game domestically. (Event the top juniors in Aberdeen attract pitiful family-and-friends-and-the-odd-lonely-groundhopper attendances).

I'm not sure where all this forensic grubbing about in attendances gets us or why it matters anymore. The East Region juniors are suffering catastrophic subsidence and the junior grade, if the current direction of travel is maintained, will not exist meaningfully in 3-5 years time. If a West of Scotland league featuring the best clubs from Glasgow and Ayrshire plus the one or two teams from the South of Scotland league who actually want to progress out of that division is formed properly then it's game over, really.

I really (personally) don't understand the reticence to make the move with every other club by Bo'ness, Linlithgow and Dundonald. It's not as if next season in the EoS would be all that much different, really, in terms of standard or crowds.

Yes the pyramid needs a lot of work to be improved and yes it needs to evolve to reflect the realities of junior subsidence /absorption, with greater access to the Lowland League and SPFL 2 (and yes, automatic relegation of the bottom club from SPFL2, and a play off between 9th place and runners up in the play off semi final). The new West of Scotland division needs to be done right and frankly the clowns running the junior grade should be nowhere near the running of a new league at that level. They have shown themselves self-interested, self-serving and incompetent over many years. But is it really possible to infuence or change a system for the better by denigrating it and shouting at it from the sidelines?

An existential moment for the big hold-outs. Hopefully they will see that involvement in the pyramid will bring more longer term benefits than being left behind in an anaemic junior grade in its last moments.

There's no pleasure at all to be taken in the erosion of tradition but time has simply caught up with the juniors. Junior diehards may rage at the jump-or-be-swept-away choice they face, but no amount of raging, bizarre conspiracy theory, sneering at the "diddy clubs" in non league seniors, or denial of reality will make the choice go away.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2018 by Ivo den Bieman

[Enigma]

It’s always going to be tough for teams at the geographical extremes. I’ve come to the belief it would make sense to lower the HL/LL boundary to ensure all Perth based clubs fall in the HL area, would keep them with their fellow taysiders. Maybe have the boundary along the north border of tradition Kinross-shire or something?

It’s a sore one for Tayport but then it’s tough for Tweedmouth, Wick and Stranraer.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

There's no pleasure at all to be taken in the erosion of tradition but time has simply caught up with the juniors. Junior diehards may rage at the jump-or-be-swept-away choice they face, but no amount of raging, bizarre conspiracy theory, sneering at the "diddy clubs" in non league seniors, or denial of reality will make the choice go away.

Nail on head.

[Ivo den Bieman]

My understanding was the the boundary had been / was being moved to the River North Esk, meaning that Montrose / Brechin were the southernmost towns in the "Highland" catchment area.

Funnily if this had been twenty years ago then most in a similar discussion would have been waiting with baited breath for Tayport's decision. Think they could do well in an EoS league.

 

[Tutankhamen]

23 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Nail on head.

Amazing what a year can do.

[Burnie_man]

My understanding was the the boundary had been / was being moved to the River North Esk, meaning that Montrose / Brechin were the southernmost towns in the "Highland" catchment area.
Funnily if this had been twenty years ago then most in a similar discussion would have been waiting with baited breath for Tayport's decision. Think they could do well in an EoS league.

I don't see the sense in moving yet another city into the LL area, it's lop sided as it is. I think the boundary remains the Tay anyway.

[Cyclizine]

3 minutes ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

My understanding was the the boundary had been / was being moved to the River North Esk, meaning that Montrose / Brechin were the southernmost towns in the "Highland" catchment area.

Funnily if this had been twenty years ago then most in a similar discussion would have been waiting with baited breath for Tayport's decision. Think they could do well in an EoS league.

 

I think this was confusion over the co-ordinates that were given for the line of latitude split: if you took it as a decimal it appeared to be the mouth of the Tay, but it was the North Esk if it was in degrees, minutes and seconds. It was later confirmed to be the mid-point of the Tay Bridge by the Lowland League. I don't think this has changed.

[Ivo den Bieman]

ah right, fair enough, I was talking pish (about the River North Esk) thanks

[Tutankhamen]

Is the man from Ormiston still running the show in the EoS?

[Robert James]

16 minutes ago, Enigma said:

It’s always going to be tough for teams at the geographical extremes. I’ve come to the belief it would make sense to lower the HL/LL boundary to ensure all Perth based clubs fall in the HL area, would keep them with their fellow taysiders. Maybe have the boundary along the north border of tradition Kinross-shire or something?

It’s a sore one for Tayport but then it’s tough for Tweedmouth, Wick and Stranraer.

And Fort William, who have survived in the HFL for 2018/19

As an aside, Orkney FC have become champions of the NCL for the first time, and are looking to develop their ground, etc.  What if they applied for SFA membership in the future ? 

[Jason King]

They should be allowed in as should teams from Lewis, Shetland and wherever else that is Scotland but which is more than 90 minutes from the M8.

[Vollyman]

Since you're around Vollyman, any chance of an answer?  you say this is a shambles, but it's one you seemed to recognise needed to happen only 12 months ago.

The SFA should be promoting football,as I have said in my post the pyramid has been set up to protect the SPFL and with only one promotion after a playoff will result in many meaningless games The last 2 teams in league 2 should be relegated to the Lowland League and that should be relevant throughout the pyramid system. Btw I suggested in a post regarding the reorganising of the East Junior Leagues that a tayside/north Fife and a Lothian/ South fife league should be formed with a play off to determine the East Region Champions you informed me that playoffs stopped in 1973. You now seem to be embracing the playoff system.

[Burnie_man]

41 minutes ago, Jason King said:

They should be allowed in as should teams from Lewis, Shetland and wherever else that is Scotland but which is more than 90 minutes from the M8.

I think there is a case for allowing the winners of the NCL into the Scottish Cup, however allowing them to become Licenced probably means the NCL would need some tie-up with the HFL/Pyramid.

Whether there is the same case for the Lewis/Harris and the Shetland Leagues in I'm not sure, they are effectively just Amateur leagues. Maybe select sides could enter with appearance money used to pay for travel and/or develop facilities.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, Vollyman said:

The SFA should be promoting football,as I have said in my post the pyramid has been set up to protect the SPFL and with only one promotion after a playoff will result in many meaningless games The last 2 teams in league 2 should be relegated to the Lowland League and that should be relevant throughout the pyramid system.

I don't disagree with that.

3 minutes ago, Vollyman said:

Btw I suggested in a post regarding the reorganising of the East Junior Leagues that a tayside/north Fife and a Lothian/ South fife league should be formed with a play off to determine the East Region Champions you informed me that playoffs stopped in 1973. You now seem to be embracing the playoff system.

They stopped in the East Region in 1973 when the two separate Districts (West and Mid/East) amalgamated to form A and B Divisions with promotion relegation.  Not sure what relevance that is, a play-off has existed between EoS and SoS since the LL began, although not always needed, and a play-off will be needed next season between the two EoS sections as a (probable) one-off before reverting to a divisional structure.

None of that however answers the question.  You recognised 12 months ago that Junior clubs would need to leave the Juniors to join the Pyramid and you wanted Armadale to prepare Volunteer Park for SFA Licencing. 

That first part is exactly what is happening as predicted, so why throw shit at the EoS and the clubs leaving to join?

[welshbairn]

22 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I think there is a case for allowing the winners of the NCL into the Scottish Cup, however allowing them to become Licenced probably means the NCL would need some tie-up with the HFL/Pyramid.

Whether there is the same case for the Lewis/Harris and the Shetland Leagues in I'm not sure, they are effectively just Amateur leagues. Maybe select sides could enter with appearance money used to pay for travel and/or develop facilities.

The majority of North Super League sides are effectively amateur.

Edited May 25, 2018 by welshbairn

[Burnie_man]

9 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

The majority of North Super League sides are effectively amateur.

But play in a semi-pro league.

[Jason King]

52 minutes ago, Vollyman said:

you informed me that playoffs stopped in 1973. You now seem to be embracing the playoff system.

Stating a historical fact isn't actually giving an opinion