Junior football, what is the future?

[Black Pennel]

Don't want promotion ?...just use the Threave Rovers tactic.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Where's the risk? Both Dumbarton and Brechin, small part-time sides with supports not dissimilar to Talbot, will walk away this season with £178,000 / £166,000 for their unsuccessful seasons. Talbot would need to win the Junior Cup 13/14 times over to bag that - your shirt would look like a gold and black version of the US flag!

Well I consider it a risk, you don't, take away the mandatory aspect and it eases the uncertainty. Who knows, if it comes around Talbot, or any big Junior club, might fancy it, but they should not be forced. You have forwarded the Brechin Dumbarton analogy before, all due respect but it is like comparing apples and oranges, doesn't quite tie up. The point is it was a concession the SJFA requested back in the day, and it was roundly thrown out, just like their recent proposal. Get my point?

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Black Pennel said:

Don't want promotion ?...just use the Threave Rovers tactic.

Not the Talbot way!

[The Moonster]

8 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

You have forwarded the Brechin Dumbarton analogy before, all due respect but it is like comparing apples and oranges, doesn't quite tie up. 

Elaborate.

[cmontheloknow]

11 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

Well I consider it a risk, you don't, take away the mandatory aspect and it eases the uncertainty. Who knows, if it comes around Talbot, or any big Junior club, might fancy it, but they should not be forced. You have forwarded the Brechin Dumbarton analogy before, all due respect but it is like comparing apples and oranges, doesn't quite tie up. The point is it was a concession the SJFA requested back in the day, and it was roundly thrown out, just like their recent proposal. Get my point?

I still don't see the risk and I don't see why Brechin especially are not relevant (Dumbarton granted are from a bigger urban area but are still part-time with a fanbase not dissimilar to Talbot). Small club with a small ground from a wee town that is from a more rural than urban area. They will have a successful L1 next season IMO - boosted by having an additional £100,000 in the bank compared to the clubs coming in at the other end, Montrose and Stenhousemuir. Both of them bank £60,000+ more than Talbot will this season from their league endeavours.

I don't see the compulsory promotion issue as a deal breaker. It is needed to keep the flow going, to stop poor clubs escaping relegation.

Edited May 17, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[Black Pennel]

9 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

Not the Talbot way!

I know...I was only kidding.

The downside of using the tactic is that it then blocks the promotion place for the supposedly more ambitious club which you've already skelped twice on your league winning run.

p.s. Some of the bullying & hectoring on this thread is a bit out of order, but you didn't need to go scripto mental just to wind them up.

[Jason King]

1 hour ago, A.M said:

Why the capitals, another attempt at shouting down anyone with an opinion different to yours   

I have already said I enjoy junior football as it is and cant really see the attraction of the oft quoted benefits you talk of. Is that a crime ?

It would also be hypocritical of me to start ranting and raving about the juniors when I am saying you guys need to give it a rest.

You like the pyramid , I like the juniors. 

No, it was an attempt to get a Talbot fan, any Talbot fan, to answer the question as the most vociferous of them on P&B have steadfastly ignored the question over the previous months whilst spouting their hatred for those who want to see the game progress.

If you enjoy Junior football then you'll surely be able to list the benefits of staying Junior and why they are more attractive to clubs than what the pyramid is offering. It wouldn't be hypocritical to list these reasons, it would be nice to know that you could actually come up with reasons.

I like the Juniors, I also like the pyramid. Its not a crime to like both and no one has ever said it was.

I've been watching the Juniors for 5 decades but I know when the game is up and that survival at an appropriate level is now dependent on integration into the senior pyramid - that doesn't make me a hater, a monkey, a insurgent or whatever vile bile is coming from certain posters. It makes me a lover of FOOTBALL, a lover who wants to see the object of his affection push as far as they can upwards rather than stagnating in front of ever dwindling crowds at games that are arranged with about 7 days notice.

[Ginaro]

41 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

But the Juniors had their chances to do and did not want to engage...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/13087704.Nice_idea__but_junior_clubs_remain_unconvinced_by_reality_of_pyramid_structure/ Jan 2013.

I like this paragraph, with all its usual nonsense from TJ:

Quote

"There is a possibly that one or two junior clubs might decide they want to go and play in the Lowland league, but even of those not many will meet the criteria. Interested clubs could contact the SFA and if they meet the criteria they might be invited. We wouldn't stand in the way of any club who had ambitions to move on but there are lots of reasons why other clubs are reluctant to take part. We have got a vibrant top end and I don't see what is on offer as any better than what we have. We sell our game at the right price; it is £5 to get into a junior game at the moment, it is more financially accessible for a lot of football fans and the main hurdle and obstacle for clubs will be the cost of meeting the criteria at club entry level. That would be pretty punitive. Annan Athletic spent £250,000 meeting the criteria just for the SFL. We play local football which suits the teams and players and anyone who goes to play in the Lowland league would have to leave the juniors and lose the chance to play in the Emirates Junior Cup."

Most LL clubs are £5/6, as shown here: https://twitter.com/OfficialSLFL/status/950457032062263296

If entry level criteria can be met by Burntisland, Coldstream, Newton Stewart, etc. then it should be doable for the top Junior clubs. Annan only needed floodlights installed to play in the S(P)FL, which aren't needed at LL level.

Then there's that local football for local people again...

[vikingTON]

30 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

the Talbot way!

Def.: 'Shiting themselves about leaving a dead setup and getting routinely pumped in the Scottish Cup by all-comers'.

[calmac25]

Let Bill answer you then....I was watching the Upwards and Onwards boys being beaten comprehensively by one of the clubs you and your cohorts believe have no ambition...out played ..out thought..and lacking a game plan.....game run by the Penicuik back 3....centre half wasn't good enough to play for Bonnyrigg 5 years ago when his time was up with the Rose A....but for Allan Horne it could have been a barrowload...THE community game at junior level.. just look at the history and how it has served the community......but that's being a dinosaur......E of S.....nothing in comparison.....tell me when you will see the streets lined and the Toll packed again waiting on the team coming from the PremierJunior Cup Final....not worth recalling is it really.....now forgotten heros in the new order of things...except by us dinasaurs ...of course its 40 years ago or have you forgotten...WILL any of the E of  S trophy,s re-create that memorable night..with all its money.?.....ONWARDS AND UPWARDS as you keep repeating......I...say again ..the best of luck in your new adventure....its not for me.....my choice...and luckily I still have the right to make my own mind up on the matter.

Darren Young was about the worst player on the park last night. It wasn't a great game , Penicuik scored with their 3 chances and Rose missed theirs so deserved to go out. No cutting edge and missed best 2 strikers and defenders

I don't know anyone at Penicuik but I'm sure the club will leave the juniors as soon as they can,why stay? They are a distance of licencing, The team have gone a long way but the park isn't up to much and they'd need a whole new facilities building.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, virginton said:

Def.: 'Shiting themselves about leaving a dead setup and getting routinely pumped in the Scottish Cup by all-comers'.

And round and round, and round and round.

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

I still don't see the risk and I don't see why Brechin especially are not relevant (Dumbarton granted are from a bigger urban area but are still part-time with a fanbase not dissimilar to Talbot). Small club with a small ground from a wee town that is from a more rural than urban area. They will have a successful L1 next season IMO - boosted by having an additional £100,000 in the bank compared to the clubs coming in at the other end, Montrose and Stenhousemuir. Both of them bank £60,000+ more than Talbot will this season from their league endeavours.

I don't see the compulsory promotion issue as a deal breaker. It is needed to keep the flow going, to stop poor clubs escaping relegation.

I do, and the whole Junior cup thing. If those two things were addressed I think it could all move on.

[Kilbowie Benches]

Getting promotion and playing teams of equal standing is not the Talbot way!

[Sergeant Wilson]

He's gone full scale Cabe now!

[cmontheloknow]

14 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

I do, and the whole Junior cup thing. If those two things were addressed I think it could all move on.

I think the cup issue will resolve itself - that early PWG doc mentioned retaining the trophy and name but opening it out to all. That would increase the value of it (which is high relatively). But the promotion issue - we an agree to differ!

[cmontheloknow]

Just now, Snafu said:

Players even as semi pros in the non league will be more inclined to find better deals with clubs that have more money therefore better offers and better facilities. I can see the Juniors being gradually drained of the better players and the players who drop down from the SPFL will be more inclined to remain in a league setup with clubs for the same reason.

 

I think this is happening to a degree already. Every one of the players in the squad of the newly founded adult clubs of EK, Cumbernauld Colts, BSC, Bonnyton etc... they'd mostly be playing Junior (at some level or another) if they weren't with those clubs (U20s excepted).

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

Getting promotion and playing teams of equal standing is not the Talbot way!

Friends Unite Disillusion.

[Jason King]

Is there any chance you could at least be civil rather than continuing to post hatred towards those you disagree with?

Thanks in advance.

[santheman]

The best players will go where the money is.

Always have done, always will do.

The unanswered question about what the Juniors can offer what the pyramid can't? 

The answer is probably nothing except the history of being a member of an Association ( over 100 years for some teams) which is important to some people but seems to be the object of derision for others.

It's a bit like asking someone why they still shop in the Co-op when there's a Tesco  megastore across the road  or why do they still go on holiday to a caravan instead of a 5 star all inclusive resort.

It'a what they're used to and enjoy but some people can't or won't accept that.

What I would like to see in the West is  an all in or nothing approach  (preferably all in) and under the banner of the SJFA.

Imagine if Pollok joined any WOSL and Arthurlie didn't or Cumnock did and Auchinleck didn't.

Even going down the leagues, Benburb St Anthony's,  Lanark Lesmahagow, Larkhall Royal Albert. All keenly fought well attended derbies which could be lost for years and that would be not just a loss to the Juniors but football as a whole.

 

Edited May 17, 2018 by santheman

[Ginaro]

5 minutes ago, santheman said:

Even going down the leagues, Benburb St Anthony's,  Lanark Lesmahagow, Larkhall Royal Albert. All keenly fought well attended derbies which could be lost for years and that would be not just a loss to the Juniors but football as a whole.

They could be lost for years in the Juniors as well. Lanark/Lesmahagow play in separate divisions just now, and next year Larkhall/Royal Albert will be in different divisions. Benburb/St Anthony's haven't been in the same division since 2014/15, and next season Benburb will be two leagues above St Anthony's. You must remember that Junior football in each region is a pyramid, just with nowhere to go at the top.