Junior football, what is the future?

[A.M]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

 

I have highlighted it for you, this follows on from another Talbot posters assertions that there is some sort of conspiracy, some sort of "campaign" to entice Junior clubs to move, and there is some sort of "anti-Junior propaganda"  war going on.  It's laughable nonsense.

 

So you think thats laughable, go back and read some of your posts.

I'll ask you this, your team have made the decision you want, why are you still jumping on anybody else who has an opinion different to yours ...cant you just be happy ?

Also why do you keep mentioning Talbot, I actually live in Bonnyrigg and have done for many years but I still follow Talbot, does that make me a spokesman for Talbot ?

[Jason King]

3 minutes ago, A.M said:

So you think thats laughable, go back and read some of your posts.

I'll ask you this, your team have made the decision you want, why are you still jumping on anybody else who has an opinion different to yours ...cant you just be happy ?

Also why do you keep mentioning Talbot, I actually live in Bonnyrigg and have done for many years but I still follow Talbot, does that make me a spokesman for Talbot ?

My Team : Auchinleck  Talbot, what else would you be doing here other than giving your viewpoint as a Talbot fan.

 

[A.M]

Why the capitals, another attempt at shouting down anyone with an opinion different to yours   

I have already said I enjoy junior football as it is and cant really see the attraction of the oft quoted benefits you talk of. Is that a crime ?

It would also be hypocritical of me to start ranting and raving about the juniors when I am saying you guys need to give it a rest.

You like the pyramid , I like the juniors. 

[A.M]

1 minute ago, Jason King said:

My Team : Auchinleck  Talbot, what else would you be doing here other than giving your viewpoint as a Talbot fan.

 

I am a fan of the juniors, as I said I live in Bonnyrigg and I'm disappointed they are leaving as well but I dont go on and on about it , that is their decision as they see best for their club, which is exactly my point , why dont you guys leave other teams to make that same decision on what is best for them ?

[Burnie_man]

10 minutes ago, A.M said:

So you think thats laughable, go back and read some of your posts.

I'll ask you this, your team have made the decision you want, why are you still jumping on anybody else who has an opinion different to yours ...cant you just be happy ?

Also why do you keep mentioning Talbot, I actually live in Bonnyrigg and have done for many years but I still follow Talbot, does that make me a spokesman for Talbot ?

Great comeback. Feel free to highlight any of my posts if you want to take issue with them.

As I'm sure you're aware this is an internet forum which facilitates all sorts of debate, there are no rules over which particular topics you can and cannot contribute to.  Sad thing is, there's very little positive input from those who come from the "pro-Junior" viewpoint.  You identify yourself as a Talbot fan and your post follows a particular trend of other Talbot fans, hence the mention.

So rather than tell posters what to post on the forum, if the debate is not your cup of tea, don't open the topic and read it.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Burnie_man

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, Isabel Goudie said:

You misinterpret the Monkeys reference, it is not calling people monkeys although ironically we all are! However, I can't use this term anymore, I have been warned by the mods, I do however reserve the right to quote other people who use it. Democracy?

Hello Isa. Back in early April, I did say that I wouldn't enter into further dialogue with you ("Hello Goodbye" etc). However, I now feel it is appropriate to do so, as the "monkeys" and "organ grinder" nonsense has reappeared, and it seems that pro junior voices are alleging "conspiracy" by pro-pyramid voices.

Without an insults from me, my own personal views in favour of the pyramid are :

* Inverurie, Turriff, Strathspey & Formartine left the juniors to join the Highland League. There does not seem to have been any problems, or recriminations against them because they left "the grade"

* Kelty were East Region Junior Champions (no mean fete in itself), and they decided to "go senior" to further their ambitions. They have been very successful since doing so, with enhanced interest from supporters & the media, promotion to the Lowland at the first attempt, bigger crowds, and a license as well. Yet somehow Kelty (unlike the 4 clubs mentioned above), seems to have been castigated on this forum for most of the last 6 months or so

* the opportunity exists for other junior clubs to follow them, as a dozen or so have done in the East for next season. This is a matter for those clubs to decide for themselves. Frankly it is nothing to do with you, or me. (I would like Glasgow  Uni FC to join the pyramid, but they haven't done so, which is disappointing, but I have not been rattling on about it)

* there may be a few late applicants to join the EoS  (2 x 16 clubs), which would mean entry at Tier 6 for 2018/19 if any apply. Again this is their decision 

* the financial benefits of joining the SFA's pyramid have been published extensively on here, and have not been challenged by any junior posters (or others) as being "fake news" as far as I can tell. Yes there are risks in turning "senior" , especially if clubs become over ambitious. Junior clubs have themselves made this mistake in the past, and have not been exempt from trying to over achieve

* there is no reason for the SJFA to be abolished, and as we write today, there is no agreement that any West junior clubs will join a new West feeder league (other than Clydebank) in 2019/20. However, based on the Questionnaire results, some of these clubs may decide to join it, and if any do so, it seems to be recognised that this will be a Tier 6 entry for (top) clubs in the WoSL's first year (if it is created in the near future)

* Pro & Anti posters have repeatedly stated that there is a role for the SJFA for clubs that don't want to join the pyramid, and also to retain the Scottish Junior Cup, and its title, albeit opened up to senior non league clubs if they wish to enter -  it does not need to be retitled as the Scottish FA Trophy IMO.

* the North Region Juniors seems to be struggling, and the Tay/Perthshire situation needs resolving - surely these are priorities for the SJFA, and for pro-junior posters like yourself, rather than on-going bickering about the East ?

To me, we are where we are, and there will always be mistakes and regrets in life, but can we please move on from the verbal garbage (on all sides), and recognise that major surgery is sometimes required, in life, as well as in football. As my wife once said, "its only a bunch of blokes kicking a leather (plastic) ball about." She didn't agree with Bill Shankly's famous comment, and was entitled to  express her opinion.   

 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Robert James

[welshbairn]

8 minutes ago, Snafu said:

As far as I'm aware Inverness City have never charged people to watch them

It's been £6 the last few years at Lister Park, probably not enough to pay for the coach for away games. Maybe one of the sponsors pays for travel?

Edited May 17, 2018 by welshbairn

[A.M]

10 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Great comeback. Feel free to highlight any of my posts if you want to take issue with them.

As I'm sure you're aware this is an internet forum which facilitates all sorts of debate, there are no rules over which particular topics you can and cannot contribute to.  Sad thing is, there's very little positive input from those who come from the "pro-Junior" viewpoint.  You identify yourself as a Talbot fan and your post follows a particular trend of other Talbot fans, hence the mention.

So rather than tell posters what to post on the forum, if the debate is not your cup of tea, don't open the topic and read it.

That is the difference, I dont have time to sit all day sifting through posts like you .

BTW I didnt TELL anybody what to post , I asked the question , another difference gladly between you and me, and I hate to sound like Goudie but I also dont sit and press green and red dots all day dependant on whether somebody agrees with me or not.

I have to go out now , please may I leave the room ?

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, A.M said:

That is the difference, I dont have time to sit all day sifting through posts like you .

BTW I didnt TELL anybody what to post , I asked the question , another difference gladly between you and me, and I hate to sound like Goudie but I also dont sit and press green and red dots all day dependant on whether somebody agrees with me or not.

I have to go out now , please may I leave the room ?

Ignore the thread.  Seriously, you'll feel better for it rather than telling people to give it a rest.

[Burnie_man]

WTF?

http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php?/topic/256668-appendage-mincer-and-the-dancing-primates/

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Hello Isa. Back in early April, I did say that I wouldn't enter into further dialogue with you ("Hello Goodbye" etc). However, I now feel it is appropriate to do so, as the "monkeys" and "organ grinder" nonsense has reappeared, and it seems that pro junior voices are alleging "conspiracy" by pro-pyramid voices.

Without an insults from me, my own personal views in favour of the pyramid are :

* Inverurie, Turriff, Strathspey & Formartine left the juniors to join the Highland League. There does not seem to have been any problems, or recriminations against them because they left "the grade"

* Kelty were East Region Junior Champions (no mean fete in itself), and they decided to "go senior" to further their ambitions. They have been very successful since doing so, with enhanced interest from supporters & the media, promotion to the Lowland at the first attempt, bigger crowds, and a license as well. Yet somehow Kelty (unlike the 4 clubs mentioned above), seems to have been castigated on this forum for most of the last 6 months or so

* the opportunity exists for other junior clubs to follow them, as a dozen or so have done in the East for next season. This is a matter for those clubs to decide for themselves. Frankly it is nothing to do with you, or me. (I would like Glasgow  Uni FC to join the pyramid, but they haven't done so, which is disappointing, but I have not been rattling on about it)

* there may be a few late applicants to join the EoS  (2 x 16 clubs), which would mean entry at Tier 6 for 2018/19 if any apply. Again this is their decision 

* the financial benefits of joining the SFA's pyramid have been published extensively on here, and have not been challenged by any junior posters (or others) as being "fake news" as far as I can tell. Yes there are risks in turning "senior" , especially if clubs become over ambitious. Junior clubs have themselves made this mistake in the past, and have not been exempt from trying to over achieve

* there is no reason for the SJFA to be abolished, and as we write today, there is no agreement that any West junior clubs will join a new West feeder league (other than Clydebank) in 2019/20. However, based on the Questionnaire results, some of these clubs may decide to join it, and if any do so, it seems to be recognised that this will be a Tier 6 entry for (top) clubs in the WoSL's first year (if it is created in the near future)

* Pro & Anti posters have repeatedly stated that there is a role for the SJFA for clubs that don't want to join the pyramid, and also to retain the Scottish Junior Cup, and its title, albeit opened up to senior non league clubs if they wish to enter -  it does not need to be retitled as the Scottish FA Trophy IMO.

* the North Region Juniors seems to be struggling, and the Tay/Perthshire situation needs resolving - surely these are priorities for the SJFA, and for pro-junior posters like yourself, rather than on-going bickering about the East ?

To me, we are where we are, and there will always be mistakes and regrets in life, but can we please move on from the verbal garbage (on all sides), and recognise that major surgery is sometimes required, in life, as well as in football. As my wife once said, "its only a bunch of blokes kicking a leather (plastic) ball about." She didn't agree with Bill Shankly's famous comment, and was entitled to  express her opinion.   

 

Robert, thanks for your message, for what it's worth I never considered you to be one of the dancing primates and you make some very decent points. I agree that changes are afoot and that the Juniors need to embrace change, have never said anything else. However, the realisation that the pyramid is not open to suggestions from Junior Football and the incessant contempt is hard to take. It is one thing getting stitched up like a kipper, another to smile while they do it.

[Kilbowie Benches]

8 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

Robert, thanks for your message, for what it's worth I never considered you to be one of the dancing primates and you make some very decent points. I agree that changes are afoot and that the Juniors need to embrace change, have never said anything else. However, the realisation that the pyramid is not open to suggestions from Junior Football and the incessant contempt is hard to take. It is one thing getting stitched up like a kipper, another to smile while they do it.

Nobody will be forced to do anything.

If clubs want to stay Junior and outside of the pyramid then they should be allowed to.

[Che Dail]

1 hour ago, A.M said:

I also notice that some of the more persistent posters are from fans of teams who have already jumped or about to jump to the EOS.

I just dont understand this, if your team has made the decision YOU are happy with why are you continually campaigning for other teams to leave ? 

It is less about people campaigning for other teams to leave and more to do with backing up their own attitude or belief.

Once a person or organisation makes a decision to change, or to buy into something, they naturally look for more (new) reasons to bolster it. 

Consensus from like-minded posters on this forum reinforces the notion that their point of view is correct and that they've made a good decision.

[cmontheloknow]

24 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

Robert, thanks for your message, for what it's worth I never considered you to be one of the dancing primates and you make some very decent points. I agree that changes are afoot and that the Juniors need to embrace change, have never said anything else. However, the realisation that the pyramid is not open to suggestions from Junior Football and the incessant contempt is hard to take. It is one thing getting stitched up like a kipper, another to smile while they do it.

But the Juniors had their chances to do just that and did not want to engage...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/13087704.Nice_idea__but_junior_clubs_remain_unconvinced_by_reality_of_pyramid_structure/

Jan 2013.

Fast forward to 5.5 years later - is it appropriate to say, "hang on, let's undo everything you've done and we've said. We're coming in!"

In the article it's irrelevant fluff like Annan's costs to upgrade Galabank (which I went to before rebuilding and it needed every penny that was spent - but for a level in excess of what Entry is) and 'wha's like us' stuff from TJ and a concluding paragraph that says...

Quote

The plan will take a step forward today with David Longmuir and Neil Doncaster likely to face a more favourable response in face-to-face discussions with representatives from clubs in both the East and South of Scotland Leagues.

Edited May 17, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

Nobody will be forced to do anything.

If clubs want to stay Junior and outside of the pyramid then they should be allowed to.

One of the things Junior clubs are concerned about is being forced into a league they feel a step too far, which is one of the concessions proposed which was soundly rejected. Some clubs might be able to jump in the deep end and swim, some not. Being pushed in is not right. I'm referring to mandatory promotion.

[cmontheloknow]

5 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

One of the things Junior clubs are concerned about is being forced into a league they feel a step too far, which is one of the concessions proposed which was soundly rejected. Some clubs might be able to jump in the deep end and swim, some not. Being pushed in is not right. I'm referring to mandatory promotion.

If BSC and other perceived minnows can cope with the LL, why couldn't the Junior sides...?

If any of the big Junior clubs were promoted to SPFL L2, why would they struggle to increase their fanbase when every other club who has gone up has done so?

Why would costs be any less manageable with a minimum of £40,000 of prize money coming their way (plus cup revenue not factored into that)?

Not every club who enters SPFL L2 is compelled to price match with the others - when Annan went up they were far cheaper than anyone else.

Edited May 17, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

But the Juniors had their chances to do just that and did not want to engage...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/13087704.Nice_idea__but_junior_clubs_remain_unconvinced_by_reality_of_pyramid_structure/

Jan 2013.

Fast forward to 5.5 years later - is it appropriate to say, "hang on, let's undo everything you've done and we've said. We're coming in!"

 

7 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

But the Juniors had their chances to do just that and did not want to engage...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/13087704.Nice_idea__but_junior_clubs_remain_unconvinced_by_reality_of_pyramid_structure/

Jan 2013.

Fast forward to 5.5 years later - is it appropriate to say, "hang on, let's undo everything you've done and we've said. We're coming in!"

Some of those concerns are still prevalent. However times change and move on. No one can surely argue that having some Junior Heavy weights from the west in the pyramid would not enhance it. If we have any chance of this the Juniors have to have a say, that appears not to be the case.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

If BSC and other perceived minnows can cope with the LL, why couldn't the Junior sides...?

If any of the big Junior clubs were promoted to SPFL L2, why would they struggle to increase their fanbase when every other club who has gone up has done so?

Why would costs be any less manageable with a minimum of £40,000 of prize money coming their way (plus cup revenue not factored into that)?

Not every club who enters SPFL L2 is compelled to price match with the others - when Annan went up they were far cheaper than anyone else.

God, it just goes round in circles. Great, let BSC get on with it, they don't know anything else really. My club totally and utterly thrive where they are, community buy in big style, they continue to progress with ground and success on the park. They still maintain a fantastic support even against all the distractions and will probably be successful in a pyramid, promotion could be a risk they might not fancy. Let someone else take the gamble, why does it have to be mandatory? It's such an easy fix, but some are entrenched on it. One small concession that would help the Junior ease in.

[cmontheloknow]

1 minute ago, Isabel Goudie said:

 

Some of those concerns are still prevalent. However times change and move on. No one can surely argue that having some Junior Heavy weights from the west in the pyramid would not enhance it. If we have any chance of this the Juniors have to have a say, that appears not to be the case.

I don't disagree with the principle but I do not think the SJFA  hold many aces when they basically shoved their own cards up their collective behind back in 2013 then are now trying to slip them back into the pack and ask for a new hand. The time to get involved was 2013. SJFA said no. Everyone else got on with it.

Ultimately what I think will happen is that a West of Scotland League will form. Who makes up the numbers? Who knows. What will that mean for the West Region? Who knows. The East Region is in dire straits though - if Bo'ness follow through with their consideration of joining the EoS. 'The times they are a changin' as Bob Dylan intoned over 50 years ago. The LL's formation 5 years ago was always going to test the resolve of the SJFA to remain intact as time went on. The speed of change has surprised me - I thought it would be nearer a decade before we got to this point, but the course had been plotted long before and I just think this whole scenario was inevitable. There is nothing wrong with the Juniors as a notion but it operates within boundaries that restrict the trade of its members - lack of access to Club Licensing for starters. The SFA is not inclined (or obliged) to alter that.

[cmontheloknow]

1 minute ago, Isabel Goudie said:

God, it just goes round in circles. Great, let BSC get on with it, they don't know anything else really. My club totally and utterly thrive where they are, community buy in big style, they continue to progress with ground and success on the park. They still maintain a fantastic support even against all the distractions and will probably be successful in a pyramid, promotion could be a risk they might not fancy. Let someone else take the gamble, why does it have to be mandatory? It's such an easy fix, but some are entrenched on it. One small concession that would help the Junior ease in.

Where's the risk? Both Dumbarton and Brechin, small part-time sides with supports not dissimilar to Talbot, will walk away this season with £178,000 / £166,000 for their unsuccessful seasons. Talbot would need to win the Junior Cup 13/14 times over to bag that - your shirt would look like a gold and black version of the US flag!