Junior football, what is the future?

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Born To Run said:

This has, sadly, turned into a “what you could have had” situation for Junior sides. Here’s the original proposals from the Working Group, from when the Lowland League was being formed:

Meeting Minutes

I found these after a fair bit of googling, and can’t verify the contents. However, if correct this shows the SJFA were originally offered the chance of putting both West and East Superleagues (or a combined league) alongside the EoS and SoS. The SJFA demanded a promotion opt-out at the time, however the group insisted that licensed sides would move up.

It certainly makes for some interesting reading, especially with the benefit of hindsight!

"however the group insisted" 

That surely means factions within the group? Call me cynical but I'm beginning to think that it was, as we suspected at the time, a fait accompli and that the Juniors were never going to have a say. And what do you know, it appears to be happening all over again. The Junior representation are outnumbered are not going to be given any concession and, to rub salt in the wounds, will be lumbered with the blame for being intransigent.  God, wake up folks it is exactly what I have been saying all along. The infiltration of the Junior forum telling us how bad Junior Football is, how good the whole pyramid dream is. Pro pyramid words, progressive, ambitious, modern, blah blah! Junior references, unambitious, dinosaurs, crumbling, dark ages and on and on. Small clubs from the smallest non league running the show, the Junior firmly in their place. GEEZABREK! 

[Burnie_man]

34 minutes ago, Born To Run said:

This has, sadly, turned into a “what you could have had” situation for Junior sides. Here’s the original proposals from the Working Group, from when the Lowland League was being formed:

Meeting Minutes

I found these after a fair bit of googling, and can’t verify the contents. However, if correct this shows the SJFA were originally offered the chance of putting both West and East Superleagues (or a combined league) alongside the EoS and SoS. The SJFA demanded a promotion opt-out at the time, however the group insisted that licensed sides would move up.

It certainly makes for some interesting reading, especially with the benefit of hindsight!

I recall this document being circulated.  What needs to be remembered is that at this time, the LL and Licencing was being dismissed and bad mouthed by the SJFA and some club delegates at meetings (it still is to a certain extent), this was the era of £150k toilet blocks and you’ll all need floodlights, you’ll never be able to afford it etc etc.   Despite what the document says there was never any intention on joining in, none.

Individual Junior clubs had the choice to apply (and there were a few interested “over 20” mentioned in that document) but the rushed implementation of the LL – and frighteners re Licencing - meant it was better to stick and see what developed over the next few seasons, which ended up being nothing at all of course.

All that said, what we need now is similar minutes detailing the discussion of last weeks PWG to remove all doubt as to the direction future discussions are headed and any plans agreed so clubs can make informed decisions.  TJ was quick enough to get word out when it appeared to be good news, but appears silent now.

[kefc]

1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

That sort of information was being plastered all over this subforum by a Haddington Athletic committee member at the time, so not sure it was ever in any way secret. Turning things around another way if tier 6 entry for the three junior superleagues was doable back then why would it not be now? Was it only ever on offer because there was a strong expectation that it would be knocked back?

I don’t doubt you but Iv never seen it and we got nothing from the SJFA in terms of info.

I’m not sure it was doable or agreed back then either as agreements looked to that as though discussions would have to be made on rules and promotion opt out. Possibly paying it lip service like what’s happening now?

There is also the proposal of a big non league cup with the Junior name being kept, things we are all talking about today in that it makes complete sense, that vision from 2013 is exactly what’s being spoken about now in 2018. The PWG going by that seemed to have the short, medium and long term plan that looked logical and would have given non league football a boost, the SJFA  have resisted throughout until now in that clubs have took things into there own hands.

The part at the bottom stating 3 or 4 feeder Leagues would be cumbersome and a preference for 1 body strongly hinted then that the SJFA could be dissolved to create the 1 body and that they wanted everyone on board by 2016. It’s now 2018 and the SJFA have only now due to clubs leaving entered talks, I don’t believe guys running the SJFA want anything to do with it and are happy as they are especially in the West.

Reading that link gives even more credence that we and the other clubs have made the correct decision.

[Burnie_man]

31 minutes ago, kefc said:

Not much change, the SJFA want it their way in that will come over but they have an option to block the pyramid by deciding if teams want to go up and they keep their rules and their cups.

It was made very clear in meetings and AGM's at the time that the SJFA would only become involved if it remained entirely intact, with it's own structure, its own cups and it's own rules.  Quite a ridiculous position to take of course towards an integrated Pyramid, and one calculated to lead to nothing.  However the vast majority of clubs at the time appeared happy with that stance and to the best of my knowledge it's not changed.

The added threat of "if clubs leave and are relegated from the LL and want to come back, they start at the bottom" also concentrated many minds on the "grade".

[Salvo Montalbano]

It was made very clear in meetings and AGM's at the time that the SJFA would only become involved if it remained entirely intact, with it's own structure, its own cups and it's own rules.  Quite a ridiculous position to take of course towards an integrated Pyramid, and one calculated to lead to nothing.  However the vast majority of clubs at the time appeared happy with that stance and to the best of my knowledge it's not changed.
The added threat of "if clubs leave and are relegated from the LL and want to come back, they start at the bottom" also concentrated many minds on the "grade".

But... but... but, they're big clubs, surely you'd simply place them where their fans believed they belonged? [emoji14]

[LongTimeLurker]

31 minutes ago, superbigal said:

Do you spot that ALL sjfa East teams will be invited to join the lowland league.

That kind off puts a different slant on the Tay divide at that point anyway.

...and that fits with the guy on here who was claiming the boundary was originally supposed to be north of Montrose when it was being discussed in meetings.

[Che Dail]

1 hour ago, redstarbenhar said:

There has been much talk of a totally new west of Scotland league for season 19/20. Is this an official proposal as yet or just talk ?

If such a league is constituted from scratch key question is how many teams from SJFA west or even amateur leagues join. Depending on superleague take up it may be an opportunity for lower league clubs in the West region to step up. Examples could be St.Rochs, Gartcairn and Rossvale.

A far as I can gather the PWG supports the creation  of a WoS and the EoS Assoc is willing to help form it but as yet there is no official proposal.

In order for it to start, a minimum of 10 clubs would be required. This could be done with or without Superleague clubs.

The three examples you refer to, for example, would be well placed to help set it up as founder clubs.

To my mind it's less important where clubs are positioned in any given league structure now as opposed to where they see themselves in the future.

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

"however the group insisted" 

That surely means factions within the group? Call me cynical but I'm beginning to think that it was, as we suspected at the time, a fait accompli and that the Juniors were never going to have a say. And what do you know, it appears to be happening all over again. The Junior representation are outnumbered are not going to be given any concession and, to rub salt in the wounds, will be lumbered with the blame for being intransigent.  God, wake up folks it is exactly what I have been saying all along. The infiltration of the Junior forum telling us how bad Junior Football is, how good the whole pyramid dream is. Pro pyramid words, progressive, ambitious, modern, blah blah! Junior references, unambitious, dinosaurs, crumbling, dark ages and on and on. Small clubs from the smallest non league running the show, the Junior firmly in their place. GEEZABREK! 

:-) 

Deflector shields fully engaged and operating at 100% captain....

[Robert James]

5 hours ago, kefc said:

I really think this will pan out with clubs that want to be part of the pyramid in the East can either join at tier 6 this season or wait till next season to join the East Of Scotland Div 2 at tier 7. Clubs in the West who are interested can make them self known to the SFA or people running the EOS or Lowland League and if the numbers are high enough a new West Of Scotland League will be formed to complete the pyramid.

The SJFA will remain with the clubs that want to remain Junior, it’s a win win all round. Scottish Football gets a balanced pyramid (once the Tayside and North is sorted) covering all areas and the SJFA remain intact.

The PWG meeting didn’t go well as stated on here previously as to TJs promise to his clubs that all Junior clubs will join the pyramid next season at tier 6, it was voted unanimously out. It was never going to happen especially in the East. The SFA have a proven working pyramid in the East with more promotion places to the LL kicking in from next season its in good working order. It looks as though the SJFA want their clubs in the big Scottish Cup and they have no interest in the Pyramid or  Licencing, theres a real possibilty the Scottish Cup places may be taken away in the future.

Times are changing and for the better I think with clubs having a choice, choose the pyramid with a chance of being SFA Licenced, No glass ceiling, Fixture lists, u20 League, Scottish Cup entry, Games under lights, No end of season fixture chaos etc. or remain as you are better together as part of the SJFA. The players also have a choice who they play for too, in the East they have a choice of the LL, EOS or Junior, on the points noted above I know what looks more appealing.

Hats off to Dalkeith, Bonnyrigg, Hill Of Beath, Camelon, Musselburgh, Tranent,  Haddington, Blackburn, Crossgates, Edinburgh Utd, Easthouses and Craigroyston for having the foresight to see a brighter future for their football clubs and for taking their future into their own hands. If clubs do want to be part of the pyramid then the negative outcome of the PWG meeting for the SJFA will more than likely lead to more enquiring to join the pyramid before the EOS AGM in 3 weeks.

Excellent post, although you missed out Dunipace from the West Juniors...... so hats off to them as well !  Clydebank to follow in 2019/20 .

Now that the PWG has made it clear that the EoS is the only LL feeder in the East, it is surprising that Dundonald appear to be still delaying for a year. 

Craigroyston not yet confirmed by the EoS. Any rumours of others

[kefc]

18 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Excellent post, although you missed out Dunipace from the West Juniors...... so hats off to them as well !  Clydebank to follow in 2019/20 .

Now that the PWG has made it clear that the EoS is the only LL feeder in the East, it is surprising that Dundonald appear to be still delaying for a year. 

Craigroyston not yet confirmed by the EoS. Any rumours of others

Corrected.

[Born To Run]

Hearing that there are 2 late applications in to the EoS from the East Juniors. One name was not a surprise - one very much was...

We wait till the AGM (7th June) for final confirmation!

[bendan]

1 hour ago, Robert James said:

Now that the PWG has made it clear....

I don't think they've made anything clear. We're relying on hearsay.

[surely not!]

Hearing that there are 2 late applications in to the EoS from the East Juniors. One name was not a surprise - one very much was...
We wait till the AGM (7th June) for final confirmation!

Absolute cock tease

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Hearing that there are 2 late applications in to the EoS from the East Juniors. One name was not a surprise - one very much was...
We wait till the AGM (7th June) for final confirmation!

If its lithgae the east juniors are dead.

[FuzzyBear]

If its lithgae the east juniors are dead.

It wont be. Some of committee are opposed and there has to be a members vote.

[FairWeatherFan]

On 13/05/2018 at 23:14, gogsy said:

It was the individual areas. Last major change was in 1968 when the 6 regions were set up Fife/Tayside/East/North/Central/Ayrshire. All of these had their own league comittee, secretary etc. 

That's a nice find. Don't think i've seen it before. Even though it's referred to as a proposal on the way it's worded it's clearly a hodge podge of 3 different sources the content comes from (EoS/SoS Joing meeting in December/January, SPL/SFL in January and the SJFA's input) due to some points that conflict.

The Summary section probably gives the best indication of the PWG's intentions. Basically plays out how we know it, except for:

“The SJFA will seek to join the pyramid structure in Season 2014/15 at the earliest, and provide one or two additional feeder leagues to the LLand a feeder league to the SHFL. The current SJFA structure would remain beneath these feeder leagues”

Note that the SJFA structure as it was would not be slotted in beneath the Highland & Lowland Leagues. The PWG saw it as 2 to 3 new feeder leagues being created and then the existing SJFA structure would go beneath them.

"Structure beneath the Lowland League" section starts to see the conflicting points being made as concepts are probably being pulled from different sources. Having mentioned in the summary that new leagues would be created by the SJFA, the shorthand of West SL & East SL are used when explaining a promotion playoff to the Lowland League.

The idea of the SJFA providing a feeder to the Highland League is only considered as a possibility following the results of a survey.

This section also could explain the reason why the Superleagues can no longer be added to Tier 6 along with the SoS/EoS. They've missed that chance:

“If the SJFA does not join the pyramid structure for Season 2014/15 any SJFA teams (or any other new teams) can apply to join the EoS or SoS leagues and will be accepted if they are licensed or meet the entry requirements of the EoS or SoS leagues. The entry requirements for the EoS and SoS leagues would be harmonised for the start of Season 2013/14.”

The “Promotion to the SFL” section is important for two reasons. First it references SFL teams 17 and 18 will be involved in the playoffs against the Highland and Lowland champions. This shows that the PWG was still probably working under the assumption that the 12-12-18 SPFL league system was going to take effect. Making this very much a work in progress rather than the final version.

More importantly however it marks the boundary between the Highland and Lowland as being North and South of the Tay. With reference to it being revised not for the convenience of lower feeder leagues but to balance the numbers between the Highland and Lowland. Which suggests that someone was okay with the idea of Stirling Uni being in the Highland League as an example.

“After the play offs any team relegated from the SFL who are north of the Tay will go to the SHFL, teams south of the Tay will go to the LL. This may need to be revised over time as the balance of teams in the SHFL and the LL is considered.”

Finally we're on to the section that will have had the largest input from the SJFA on how they would take part in the pyramid structure. There are bits of the section where you can tell the PWG has listened to the proposals from the SJFA but have their own take and this is why we likely have the deadlock we have.

“The SJFA have expressed an interest to join the pyramid structure from Season 2014/15 at the earliest. It is proposed that the East and West Super Leagues feed into the LL (or a combined “Super” Super League combining East and West) and the North Super League feeds into the SHFL”

The West & East Superleagues are referred to here but back in the summary you'll remember that this was changed to additional feeder leagues with the current SJFA structure beneath.

“The SJFA would only join the structure if promotion was not mandatory and if the rules and constitution of the SJFA were left unchanged. This needs further discussion, it had been proposed:

• that promotion would be mandatory for licensed clubs,
• rules and constitution would be harmonised across the feeder leagues, incorporating the best of each”

SJFA proposal, PWG counter for further discussion.

And then I might as well end in the same way as the minutes and show why the SJFA haven't really followed up with this over the last 5 years despite being involved at the time.

“Having three or four feeder leagues into the LL would be cumbersome. It is proposed that consideration is given to creating one merged body across football beneath the LL by 2016”

 

 

[vikingTON]

3 hours ago, Isabel Goudie said:

"however the group insisted" 

That surely means factions within the group? Call me cynical but I'm beginning to think that it was, as we suspected at the time, a fait accompli and that the Juniors were never going to have a say. And what do you know, it appears to be happening all over again. The Junior representation are outnumbered are not going to be given any concession and, to rub salt in the wounds, will be lumbered with the blame for being intransigent.  God, wake up folks it is exactly what I have been saying all along. The infiltration of the Junior forum telling us how bad Junior Football is, how good the whole pyramid dream is. Pro pyramid words, progressive, ambitious, modern, blah blah! Junior references, unambitious, dinosaurs, crumbling, dark ages and on and on. Small clubs from the smallest non league running the show, the Junior firmly in their place. GEEZABREK! 

If you want a break then you can post on one of the thousands of other threads on your subforum instead, Or make another Nazi reference in the middle of a tear-stained meltdown; that'll give you a break from the site too. 

[HTG]

2 hours ago, Robert James said:

 

Now that the PWG has made it clear that the EoS is the only LL feeder in the East, 

Where is this clarity Robert?

[kefc]

3 minutes ago, HTG said:

Where is this clarity Robert?

I don’t know about the communication from the SJFA but the PWG meeting will be discussed with it’s member clubs at the EOS meeting next week 

Edited May 15, 2018 by kefc

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, HTG said:

Where is this clarity Robert?

HTG not sure about clarity from the pwg meeting, however, in the East there is the eosfl and at this point in time and for the foreseeable future the eosfl will remain as the feeder for the LL in the East. I personally can't see this changing any time soon. 

As an aside, a question for everyone where the matter of the sjfa slotting in beside the current tier 6 feeder is concerned.... If the sjfa were the recognised tier 6 feeder for the LL in the East and west and both the sosfl and eosfl wished to join the pyramid, one to each region, would everyone accept them slotting in on a par with the top leagues in the East and the west? (hypothetical question of course) and a question I think would be greeted with a resounding no, the outcome would be start at the bottom and work up..... 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Guest