Stag Nation Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 Why do the Juniors always refer to themselves as a "grade"? They don't seem to meet any normal definition of the word. Football has been hierarchical since God was a boy, with the Premier League or old First Division as the top "grade". The juniors have always stood aside from all that, and by doing so have avoided being "graded". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 31 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said: Pretty much yeah. Junior football's strength has always been its collectiveness and togetherness. The grade has been united since the 1930s. Right now the superleagues have equal status even though North is miles behind in terms of onfield standard and basic infrastructure (with Hermes and Banks o' Dee the only sides who can consistently perform reasonably in the Junior Cup). To follow your example, they wouldn't be on the same level under any definition. Should the Junior superleagues still be able to provide a Scottish Cup route winners even though in some cases you're talking about them being well down the ladder? It is just messy IMO to go down that route. A tier 7 West side but a tier 8 East side? Why not the West's tier 8 side? If the EoS had not expanded, it may have been simpler - have one level of effectively 'intermediate' divisions below the LL and HL. Junior beneath that. It will be interesting to see what is left of the SJFA if the WoSFL does form. Someone has to run those leagues, so why not the organisation that has done so for 132 years? Football is all about sentiment, if clubs and fans want to retain the SJFA it can still have a future inside the pyramid, but it couldn't be at the same tier across the country. The Scottish Cup places for winning those leagues would obviously have to go. As for the Junior Cup, I would love to see that as an all-in competition for everyone below tier 4. If that can't be achieved then clubs in the senior set-up could retain their SJFA membership to play in it. It would be a bit weird but if it's what people want, why not. 10 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: Why does the SJFA need to exist at all in that scenario? tiers 8-10 in the East would be run by the EoS, why wouldn't it be? same with the other Regions. The SJFA will only continue to be relevant for as long as the Junior game exists as a seperate grade. That's not axiomatic. There's no reason at all that the SJFA couldn't be the organisers of leagues, just as the EoS is talking about being the organisers of a WoS league. It feels like you just want to dance on the SJFA's grave. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 Someone has to run those leagues, so why not the organisation that has done so for 132 years? Football is all about sentiment, Nobody has missed the SFL 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted May 13, 2018 Author Share Posted May 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, GordonS said: That's not axiomatic. There's no reason at all that the SJFA couldn't be the organisers of leagues, just as the EoS is talking about being the organisers of a WoS league. It feels like you just want to dance on the SJFA's grave. You didn't answer the question, why would the East of Scotland League not run all levels of the Pyramid below tier 5 in the east? Why would a future WoSFL not do likewise in the west? why would you want to add more blazerati to the mix? As the PWG told TJ, the pyramid exists in the east already so your clubs can join it, and they will start the process of setting-up a similar league in the west, with the help of the EoS who wont be running it long term. You seem to want to find ways of keeping the SJFA relevant, the only way that happens is if the Junior game continues and at the moment, it seems it will as not everyone will want to join the pyramid. Absolutely fine, there's no grave to dance on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted May 13, 2018 Author Share Posted May 13, 2018 1 minute ago, parsforlife said: Nobody has missed the SFL They "folded" to faciliate unity in the professional game, for the greater good. Similar parrallels here..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: You didn't answer the question, why would the East of Scotland League not run all levels of the Pyramid below tier 5 in the east? Why would a future WoSFL not do likewise in the west? why would you want to add more blazerati to the mix? As the PWG told TJ, the pyramid exists in the east already so your clubs can join it, and they will start the process of setting-up a similar league in the west, with the help of the EoS who wont be running it long term. Eh, because the clubs who would be added to both east and west are all Juniors right now, so it's making use of the existing "blazers" instead of asking the EoS to find new "blazers". It's completely normal in many countries that when they're building a pyramid, they bolt-on the existing organisations to the overall structure. You seem to want to take a top-down approach. Quote You seem to want to find ways of keeping the SJFA relevant, the only way that happens is if the Junior game continues and at the moment, it seems it will as not everyone will want to join the pyramid. Absolutely fine, there's no grave to dance on. If you actually wanted to entice the rest of the Juniors into the pyramid, you would want to keep the SJFA relevant too. Instead you just call anyone you disagree with dinosaurs and blazers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, parsforlife said: Nobody has missed the SFL I'm not sure if you're being serious? Assuming you are, the SPFL is exactly the same as the SFL was before the top clubs left to form the SPL in the late 90s. Sentiment for the old SFL is part of what led to the clubs coming together again to form the SPFL. Also, if you manage to find one organisation that has fallen by the way side, it doesn't negate the fact that sentiment is a huge part of football. I can't believe any football fan would even try to argue with that. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 It's said that all the SJFA itself really does is run the Junior Cup and the International side. So before the Superleagues were formed were the leagues operated by a WRSJFA, ERSJFA & NRSJFA or was it the Central SJFA, Ayrshire SJFA...etc And if it was the individual areas, what's wrong with a further rebranding to integrate into the pyramid? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted May 13, 2018 Author Share Posted May 13, 2018 1 minute ago, GordonS said: Eh, because the clubs who would be added to both east and west are all Juniors right now, so it's making use of the existing "blazers" instead of asking the EoS to find new "blazers". It's completely normal in many countries that when they're building a pyramid, they bolt-on the existing organisations to the overall structure. You seem to want to take a top-down approach. If you actually wanted to entice the rest of the Juniors into the pyramid, you would want to keep the SJFA relevant too. Instead you just call anyone you disagree with dinosaurs and blazers. You still didn't answer the question (rather than have a go at me, answer the points being raised). The EoS wouldn't need new blazers, they already have a board who are more than competent enough to handle an increase in size of the league, and they dont need to entice anyone to join either, they didn't entice any of the 13 clubs who are already moving. The SJFA have no relevance in the east and they will not join the pyramid as an entity at all anywhere. They will stick to what they have always done, organise the Junior game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 I'm not sure if you're being serious? Assuming you are, the SPFL is exactly the same as the SFL was before the top clubs left to form the SPL in the late 90s. It absolutely isn't the same as it was pre-spl. Voting structures, prize money distribution, completion formats, how promotion and relegation works... all entirely different to where we were 30 years ago 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: You still didn't answer the question (rather than have a go at me, answer the points being raised). The EoS wouldn't need new blazers, they already have a board who are more than competent enough to handle an increase in size of the league, and they dont need to entice anyone to join either, they didn't entice any of the 13 clubs who are already moving. The SJFA have no relevance in the east and they will not join the pyramid as an entity at all anywhere. They will stick to what they have always done, organise the Junior game. Who runs the SoS? There's no reason why the EoS would run the WoS. You could just as easily conclude that the LL should run Tier 5 and down. But they don't. So the option for a WoS board to be created to run autonomously within a pyramid seems feasible enough to me. And if the WoS league is predominantly teams currently in junior football, then the current West Juniors mgt committee could run it. That may feel conflicting and I guess depends on whether they are jumping in en masse or not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted May 13, 2018 Author Share Posted May 13, 2018 1 minute ago, HTG said: Who runs the SoS? There's no reason why the EoS would run the WoS. You could just as easily conclude that the LL should run Tier 5 and down. But they don't. So the option for a WoS board to be created to run autonomously within a pyramid seems feasible enough to me. And if the WoS league is predominantly teams currently in junior football, then the current West Juniors mgt committee could run it. That may feel conflicting and I guess depends on whether they are jumping in en masse or not. I guess the board of the SoS run that league. The EoS will probably provide support and guidance in the setting-up of a new WoS, I very much doubt they will actually run it, I'm sure they can find competent people amongst the clubs joining to take on the various roles required, maybe even some current WRJFA management committee if their clubs join. Would the West Region clubs move en-masse to form the new WoSFL? possible, but I have my doubts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombrown Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, HTG said: Who runs the SoS? There's no reason why the EoS would run the WoS. You could just as easily conclude that the LL should run Tier 5 and down. But they don't. So the option for a WoS board to be created to run autonomously within a pyramid seems feasible enough to me. And if the WoS league is predominantly teams currently in junior football, then the current West Juniors mgt committee could run it. That may feel conflicting and I guess depends on whether they are jumping in en masse or not. East of scotland have offered to start a w.o.s.league.adapt their rules.need at least 12 clubs to start but none have come forward. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ShrimpLok Posted May 13, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted May 13, 2018 (edited) Thought I’d give a perspective from someone who follows a team in England - Morecambe - that has traditionally been non league but then got involved in the Pyramid. Morecambe is a town of about 30,000 people and the average gate tends to be in the 1000-2000 range. The 1974 FA Trophy win is definitely the biggest triumph in our history. It was before I was born but my dad, uncles, aunts, cousins who went to Wembley that day all remember it and treasure that trophy. Equally however other highlights from our non league days include FA Cup runs with three third round proper appearances over the years being particular highlights. In 2007 we came 3rd in the Conference and won promotion to the Football League after a playoff win at Wembley (giving us a 100% win record at Wembley!) We’re punching above our weight somewhat in League 2 and avoided relegation by the skin of our teeth this year. Suspect we’ll be back in the Conference at some point before too long. So what are the lessons for the Juniors? Pollok who I follow owing to living on the southside, are a club that reminds me a lot of Morecambe. There is a great atmosphere whenever I’m at a game and I enjoy Junior football. However I can’t see any reason why I would enjoy it less if Pollok were in a pyramid. The Junior Cup is a trophy with history, that everyone wants to win and I think the nationwide entry is an important part of that. Whatever else happens to the grade I think it is essential that the Junior Cup survives and ideally expands to take on other Tier 5 and below sides. When Junior clubs were admitted to the Big Scottish it was a missed opportunity for the SJFA not to invite representatives from the leagues to enter but that’s past now. The important thing is not to lose the cup as the grade loses members. I’d hope a nationwide non league cup is on the PWG agenda and that the history of the Junior Cup means it is the chosen means of delivering that nationwide cup. In terms of the Pyramid there are good and bad things about going up a level. Morecambe are now very much the smallest fish in the Football League pond and we are highly unlikely to ever win the EFL trophy for League 1/2 members, it also doesn’t have the history or romance of the FA Trophy. But one day we are likely to drop back down to the Conference and while I’ll be sad we don’t see as many big name games, there’ll be a run at another FA Trophy win on the cards. The pyramid in England has enabled us to join the Football League when we had some good times and strong teams but will also give us a place in non league and an exciting cup to try and win when we inevitably struggle in future. I want Pollok to win more Junior Cups but I also want to see them do well in the Big Scottish and draw Premiership teams and I’d be excited to see how they got on in the Lowland League and League Two, even if that only lasted a few years and then they dropped back down a level later. I just can’t see how merely being in a League that is part of the Pyramid system could affect my enjoyment of Pollok games in any way? Edited May 13, 2018 by ShrimpLok Typo 20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 45 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: They "folded" to faciliate unity in the professional game, for the greater good. Similar parrallels here..... By going back to exactly the same thing that had been formed in 1890. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted May 13, 2018 Author Share Posted May 13, 2018 1 minute ago, GordonS said: By going back to exactly the same thing that had been formed in 1890. It's not exactly the same thing, as parsforlife pointed out. So back to my main question, why wouldn't the EoS run all tiers of the Pyramid below tier 5, why would it need SJFA involvement? cutting down bureaucracy and the amount of puffed up blazers is surely a good thing without adding a completely seperate Association into the mix, right? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmontheloknow Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Stag Nation said: Why do the Juniors always refer to themselves as a "grade"? They don't seem to meet any normal definition of the word. Football has been hierarchical since God was a boy, with the Premier League or old First Division as the top "grade". The juniors have always stood aside from all that, and by doing so have avoided being "graded". In the beginning there were Seniors and Juniors. It probably started from there! The SJFA itself dates back to 1886 (4 years pre-SFL, in a world of cup football and friendies) but there were Junior FAs in existence before that - the SJFA was formed to bring some sort of order to it all (afaik) and to have the national cup running as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 50 minutes ago, parsforlife said: It absolutely isn't the same as it was pre-spl. Voting structures, prize money distribution, completion formats, how promotion and relegation works... all entirely different to where we were 30 years ago 42 member clubs playing in four divisions, running the league cup and development leagues. Yeah, totally different... The rest is just plumbing. Or are you one of these people who think English football started in 1992? I honestly think you're just arguing for the sake of it, and I'm not getting dragged into nonsense. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted May 13, 2018 Share Posted May 13, 2018 15 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: It's not exactly the same thing, as parsforlife pointed out. So back to my main question, why wouldn't the EoS run all tiers of the Pyramid below tier 5, why would it need SJFA involvement? cutting down bureaucracy and the amount of puffed up blazers is surely a good thing without adding a completely seperate Association into the mix, right? He's wrong, and I answered you. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted May 13, 2018 Author Share Posted May 13, 2018 1 minute ago, GordonS said: He's wrong, and I answered you. He's spot on, the SPFL are a whole lot different from how the SFL operated pre-SPL. You didn't answer the question at all, but we'll leave it there as it's pointless anyway, the SJFA aren't entering the pyramid. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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