Junior football, what is the future?

[AlanCamelonfan]

17 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Quite clearly this person hasn't "looked at all options" if that's the conclusion they've came to.

Also boness wanted to go 

[Stag Nation]

45 minutes ago, Ardenvohr6 said:

There currently is no west feeder to the LL, therefore, any west league will be at tier 6. If the East juniors are to join the pyramid, then it must, legally, also be at tier 6. It will be the job of the SFA to facilitate any change, and they would be spending a lot of time in court defending why they discriminated against the East Region juniors should they be placed at tier 7.

Discrimination is illegal in various contexts if based on age, gender, race or religion. Which do you expect them to claim?

[cmontheloknow]

9 minutes ago, Stag Nation said:

Discrimination is illegal in various contexts if based on age, gender, race or religion. Which do you expect them to claim?

Gradism!

[Ardenvohr6]

Discrimination is illegal in various contexts if based on age, gender, race or religion. Which do you expect them to claim?

Age. Junior being discriminated against is an age thing.

Maybe a wee read of the SFA’s articles of association might clarify gurnieman’s problems with understanding why they will require to make all teams currently in the junior grade equal in standing in the new set up.

[craigkillie]

They should go a step further and take legal action over the SPFL's refusal to let them into the Premiership.

[juniorsforme]

29 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

It's a puzzling statement.  I agree they need to upgrade Moor Park quite a bit & establish an U20 team (although that isn't a Licence requirement), but they could have done that next season whilst in the EoS and still have the chance to qualify for the Scottish Cup for 2019/20 by either winning the EoS or winning the trophy that gives access.

Let's face it, they're not giving up lots of cash by leaving the SJFA.  Looks like they've swallowed TJ's email.

 

What  puzzles me is you ignore  the fact  Dundonald can  qualify  for  the Scottish  Cup from  within  the SJFA  by winning either the Super League or Scottish Junior Cup.  As for Moor Park  it is a compact tidy ground which serves them well. I am looking forward to seeing proof of the cash you and the other clubs will receive by leaving the SJFA and competing in the EoS  which  you say Dundonald will not  receive by staying in the ERJFA. From the outset you have continually slagged  Tom Johnston and the SJFA  without actually giving valid reasons apart from your old chessnut of TJ and anyone not following into the EoS as dinosaurs.

Time will tell if the move to EoS will progress your club and the others but I believe you will soon find out the streets are not paved with gold. ps have some respect for the association your club has graced and as a Junior club received grants to improve your ground.

[Marten]

45 minutes ago, Ardenvohr6 said:

Court of Arbitration in Sport for one, Gurnieman.
And who are the teams who will be in the West Region, Loknoo?

I can already imagine the hearing.

CAS: “What is the issue here?”
SJFA: “We can’t join the pyramid at level 6 in the East of Scotland”
CAS: “I see, is there already a structure in place on level 6 in the East of Scotland?”
SJFA: “Yes”
CAS: “Were you given the chance to join the structure previously?”
SJFA: “Yes, in 2013 we were offered the chance to join the structure from level 5 down starting in 2014”
CAS: “What did you do with that chance?”
SJFA: “We ignored it”
CAS: “Did you engage in any talks?”
SJFA: “No”

CAS: …

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, Ardenvohr6 said:

Age. Junior being discriminated against is an age thing.

Maybe a wee read of the SFA’s articles of association might clarify gurnieman’s problems with understanding why they will require to make all teams currently in the junior grade equal in standing in the new set up.

Age?

Perhaps you can post the relevant sections where it details their obligation to admit the SJFA into the Pyramid at all, let alone a specific entry level.

[Dev]

55 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

West of Scotland League at tier 6 gets created. West SJFA at tier 7.

OK, here goes!

There's already Tier 6 leagues in the East and South so use them! That's by far the simplest route. The SJFA has to come up with convincing reasons why this should not be the case.

In the West those clubs which want into the pyramid should get on with it and join the SoS or form a WoS league. An expanded SoS league would soon see the stronger clubs reach the top. It's about making things happen. There is no reason why the champions of the EoS, Sos and a new WoS cannot be given a right to promotion to the 16 team Lowland league, as it's large enough to take three relegations per season.

In the north the SFA has to get a grip. The rules of the Tier 5 leagues should be the same. This means the Highland league reduced to a maximum of 16 clubs with agreed opportunity for promotion and relegation between it and the North Juniors and, maybe, the North Caledonian, plus the north of Tay clubs from the East region of the SJFA (unless another way is found for these clubs to take part in the pyramid).

However, it is important to remember that clubs need not to be put into a position where they are forced into accepting promotion. If the Champions don't want it then offer it to the next eligible club - in order to prevent "bed blocking". If the chance of promotion is there then clubs can build for the future with the certainty that, if they are good enough, the promotion door is still open.

Those SJFA clubs which are not yet ready to join the pyramid could fit in later, knowing that the door is open to them too - allowing them to plan their futures with a degree of certainty.

There are umpteen ways to make things happen rapidly - no shortage of options. Just make decisions and get on with it. Cut the procrastination. That needs agreement between those involved and, if that's not happening then heads need to be banged together pdq by the Pyramid Working Group, and, if needs be by the Board of the SFA. 

[Ardenvohr6]

I can already imagine the hearing.
CAS: “What is the issue here?”
SJFA: “We can’t join the pyramid at level 6 in the East of Scotland”
CAS: “I see, is there already a structure in place on level 6 in the East of Scotland?”
SJFA: “Yes”
CAS: “Were you given the chance to join the structure previously?”
SJFA: “Yes, in 2013 we were offered the chance to join the structure from level 5 down starting in 2014”
CAS: “What did you do with that chance?”
SJFA: “We ignored it”
CAS: “Did you engage in any talks?”
SJFA: “No”
CAS: … Is there a west feeder to the LL?
SJFA : .... NO
CAS: There should be one.
SJFA: If they form one then the best west juniors wish to join.
CAS: Fine, there are few other potential members. It would then be at the same level as the East Region; Tier 6.
SJFA: But they want the best East juniors at Tier7...
CAS: That would be wrong. The court is sending this back to the SFA with the recommendation they observe the articles of association and ensure fairness. We find in favour of the SJFA.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, juniorsforme said:

What  puzzles me is you ignore  the fact  Dundonald can  qualify  for  the Scottish  Cup from  within  the SJFA  by winning either the Super League or Scottish Junior Cup.  As for Moor Park  it is a compact tidy ground which serves them well. I am looking forward to seeing proof of the cash you and the other clubs will receive by leaving the SJFA and competing in the EoS  which  you say Dundonald will not  receive by staying in the ERJFA. From the outset you have continually slagged  Tom Johnston and the SJFA  without actually giving valid reasons apart from your old chessnut of TJ and anyone not following into the EoS as dinosaurs

They can, do you think that's likely? IMO the chances are greater in the EoS.  Moor Park is indeed a tidy ground, but tidy doesn't equate to it being close to Licencing standards, they've obviously taken advice on that part and decided it needs a bit of work. 

What cash will they receive next season from the SJFA that they will miss out on if they leave?  I didn't say they would earn payments next season, what they can earn is the opportunity to enter the Scottish Cup the following season and its an easier route than winning Superleague or Junior Cup.

As for not providing valid reasons, perhaps you should have been paying more attention.

 

3 minutes ago, juniorsforme said:

Time will tell if the move to EoS will progress your club and the others but I believe you will soon find out the streets are not paved with gold. ps have some respect for the association your club has graced and as a Junior club received grants to improve your ground.

We have received zero grants from the SJFA towards our ground, you are a completely clueless Joonyur diehard  

[Marten]

5 minutes ago, Dev said:

OK, here goes!

There's already Tier 6 leagues in the East and South so use them! That's by far the simplest route. The SJFA has to come up with convincing reasons why this should not be the case.

In the West those clubs which want into the pyramid should get on with it and join the SoS or form a WoS league. An expanded SoS league would soon see the stronger clubs reach the top. It's about making things happen. There is no reason why the champions of the EoS, Sos and a new WoS cannot be given a right to promotion to the 16 team Lowland league, as it's large enough to take three relegations per season.

In the north the SFA has to get a grip. The rules of the Tier 5 leagues should be the same. This means the Highland league reduced to a maximum of 16 clubs with agreed opportunity for promotion and relegation between it and the North Juniors and, maybe, the North Caledonian, plus the north of Tay clubs from the East region of the SJFA (unless another way is found for these clubs to take part in the pyramid).

However, it is important to remember that clubs need not to be put into a position where they are forced into accepting promotion. If the Champions don't want it then offer it to the next eligible club - in order to prevent "bed blocking". If the chance of promotion is there then clubs can build for the future with the certainty that, if they are good enough, the promotion door is still open.

Those SJFA clubs which are not yet ready to join the pyramid could fit in later, knowing that the door is open to them too - allowing them to plan their futures with a degree of certainty.

There are umpteen ways to make things happen rapidly - no shortage of options. Just make decisions and get on with it. Cut the procrastination. That needs agreement between those involved and, if that's not happening then heads need to be banged together pdq by the Pyramid Working Group, and, if needs be by the Board of the SFA. 

Fully agreed with that. If clubs don't want to leave their division, whatever name it might have and whatever their reason, they shouldn't be forced to get promoted. But the first eligible team in that division should still get the chance. I referred to the Dutch pyramid situation before as I have experienced the saga to get that into place. The problem there is that there are a number of teams in the semi-professional 3rd tier that don't want to get promoted and rather stay "non-league", even though they are more professional than quite a few of the professional 2nd tier teams. Because only the champion can get promoted and they are always turning it down, a "glass ceiling" has been created for the ambitious teams in that division. That's defnitely a thing that should be prevented in Scotland. A simple rule of the first eligible team getting promoted should do the job.

[Marten]

3 minutes ago, Ardenvohr6 said:

 

You are funny. Get real and face the fact that the SJFA have no case...

[Ardenvohr6]

Age?
Finally, someone on PnB can recognise humour!


Perhaps you can post the relevant sections where it details their obligation to admit the SJFA into the Pyramid at all, let alone a specific entry level.

Section 18 with reference to the rules and other conditions will cover it all. Bear in mind that the Articles have already been exposed as inadequate in the past and can be challenged in independent tribunals.

[bendan]

12 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

There are umpteen ways to make things happen rapidly - no shortage of options. Just make decisions and get on with it. Cut the procrastination. That needs agreement between those involved and, if that's not happening then heads need to be banged together pdq by the Pyramid Working Group, and, if needs be by the Board of the SFA. 

Yes, you really have to wonder what the PWG have been doing for the last four or five years. All of the current events are the result of Kelty making the move. The SFA and SJFA are simply reacting to events rather than proactively shaping the future. Doesn't reflect well on either organisation.

[juniorsforme]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

They can, do you think that's likely? IMO the chances are greater in the EoS.  Moor Park is indeed a tidy ground, but tidy doesn't equate to it being close to Licencing standards, they've obviously taken advice on that part and decided it needs a bit of work. 

What cash will they receive next season from the SJFA that they will miss out on if they leave?  I didn't say they would earn payments next season, what they can earn is the opportunity to enter the Scottish Cup the following season and its an easier route than winning Superleague or Junior Cup.

As for not providing valid reasons, perhaps you should have been paying more attention.

 

We have received zero grants from the SJFA towards our ground, you are a completely clueless Joonyur diehard  

I never said you received grants  from the SJFA....What I implied was you applied and received grants as Junior club.....possibly as part of a  community  hub. It was good to see your admission the EoS is easier to win than the ERJFA SL.  Burnie the quicker you disappear to the EoS the better. 

 

[juniorsforme]

5 minutes ago, juniorsforme said:

I never said you received grants  from the SJFA....What I implied was you applied and received grants as Junior club.....possibly as part of a  community  hub. It was good to see your admission the EoS is easier to win than the ERJFA SL.  Burnie the quicker you disappear to the EoS the better. 

 

Forgot to add .....I am a Joonyur diehard but not a fool like yourself

Edited April 26, 2018 by juniorsforme

[Burnie_man]

Article 18

18. FORMATION OF ASSOCIATIONS, LEAGUES, ETC.

18.1 Associations, leagues or other combinations of clubs, officials, players or referees shall only be formed with

the consent of the Scottish FA.

18.2 An Affiliated National Association may, where appropriate, and subject to the overriding authority of the

Scottish FA, give consent to the formation of an association, league or other combination of clubs, officials

or players which would normally be expected to participate in that grade of football.

18.3 All associations, leagues or other combinations of clubs, officials, players or referees shall observe these

Articles and the rules, regulations, bye-laws and decisions of the Scottish FA.

18.4 All applications for consent to operate leagues and competitions other than leagues or competitions

which come under the jurisdiction of an Affiliated National Association shall be lodged with the Secretary

on a form approved by the Board accompanied by a copy of the applicant body’s relative constitution

and rules, and applications for continuance must be made on this form annually to be lodged with the

Secretary not later than 30th June along with notification of any proposed alterations to such constitution

and rules which must be approved by the Board before becoming operative.

18.5 Applications for consent to operate leagues and competitions which come under the jurisdiction of an

Affiliated National Association shall be made in accordance with the respective provisions of such bodies.

18.6 Any association, league, or other combination of clubs, officials, players, or referees failing or refusing to

obtain approval in conformity with Articles 18.1 and 18.2 shall be held to be ineligible and unauthorised

and shall be debarred from all privileges and rights obtainable through membership of the Scottish FA or

an Affiliated National Association.

[Burnie_man]

8 minutes ago, juniorsforme said:

I never said you received grants  from the SJFA....What I implied was you applied and received grants as Junior club.....possibly as part of a  community  hub. It was good to see your admission the EoS is easier to win than the ERJFA SL.  Burnie the quicker you disappear to the EoS the better. 

 

The development of our new ground had zero to do with our membership of the SJFA or any other body.  Good to see it gets under your skin though, the Juniors will be gone soon enough.

EDIT: the SFA CEO opened our new facilities, none of the SJFA heirachy have darkened our door or even spoke to us about the new facilities since they were built, other than one guy from the East Region who "assessed" them.  That's the SJFA for you.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Burnie_man

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, juniorsforme said:

Forgot to add .....I am a Joonyur diehard but not a fool unlike yourself

You're coming out with utter claptrap yet have the brass neck to call other people fools? jog on ya numpty