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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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27 minutes ago, Afrojim said:

It's not ideal that they play their home games in Alloa, I don't know why they chose Alloa. My original point though was that there's no real comparison between BSC and Edusport. BSC are a club that have gradually grown over the last 14 years to meet the needs of their members within their own community but just happen to play their home games in Alloa because there isn't a suitable home ground for them in Glasgow at the moment. It does state on their website that as a sports club they hope to own and operate all their own facilities in the future which suggests playing in Alloa is a compromise for the time being. They shouldn't be considered a diddy club if they have 100's of kids participating regularly in sport.

Edusport on the other hand have no hometown, apparently no desire to have their own ground or develop a playing core/fanbase in any particular community - they can up sticks at any point and relocate and it wont make any difference to them or to the people of Annan many of whom are probably completely unaware that they are even playing there. 

The wider point I was making is that throughout Scotland there is clearly a willingness to participate in football - Inverkeithing being a great example of this. Unfortunately the facilities and a clear pathway to the top of the sport don't exist. Ideally all clubs in Scotland, regardless of current grade, would gain a license, join the pyramid and work their way towards the SFA Legacy award. It'll take a long time to achieve this but it is possible and it would change the sport and communities for the better. 

Ex Lok striker Chris Ewing does have some plans... (however fanciful they might be)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42958694

 

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Ex Lok striker Chris Ewing does have some plans... (however fanciful they might be)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42958694


It's amazing how much publicity they generated for their mickey mouse operation with hardly anything in the way of critical questioning or comment by the media.

They expose the loopholes of Licencing, but hopefully will eventually disappear as Junior clubs come on board.
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11 hours ago, stanley said:

I support the idea that you must be in the pyramid system to get a licence as I think it's the only way to bring about proper integration between seniors and juniors.

It is, however, still complicated now with the lack of a senior West of Scotland League and no promotion open in the north.

My point about history is that it did appear that every club that had been an SFA member ended up with a licence regardless of other factors.  Even the extreme example of Glasgow Uni groundsharing with Airdrie.  Their historical membership of the SFA should not have influenced their application for a licence.  

It does feel like integration will happen sooner rather than later and hopefully there will be no need for seemingly endless discussion on seniors vs juniors and all clubs will be in the same pyramid.

Yes, my post was a warning to the 5 clubs which enter the Scottish Cup under 'historic rights', that when (if) the pyramid has a senior 'feeder' league in the West and the North Junior Regions, the SFA (with the backing of its Member clubs), may remove this entitlement.

For the present however, I support their 'historic rights'  because

* Girvan have had dual SFA & SJFA membership for a long of period time, and currently there is no senior pyramid feeder league in the West Junior Region. But 2019/20 maybe ? 

* Banks O'Dee was accepted into the Scottish Cup when it gained an SFA licence, prior to the rules being changed to require a commitment to the pyramid. However Banks cannot get  automatic promotion to the Highland League (no pyramid feeder league exists in the North), and was unsuccessful when it made an application to join the HFL in 2009.  

* Linlithgow Rose (like Banks O' Dee above), obtained an SFA licence before the rules were changed (ie commitment to the pyramid).  However, this club has (apparently) not applied to join the East pyramid' feeder' league for next season, which is available to it (unlike the West & North Region Juniors). Perhaps this makes it vulnerable (rightly or wrongly) in the future

* Golspie Sutherland plays in the North Caledonian League, which is not recognised as a 'senior feeder league' and does not therefore give its clubs "promotion" access to the Highland League, even if they are licensed. The club has been an SFA member club since the 1960's  

* Glasgow Uni has been a member of the SFA since the 1940's, with the exception of a period from 1996 - 2003. It has its own ground, the Garscube Complex, which has hosted Scottish Cup ties as recently as 2010-11 (GUFC 1 Burntisland 0 ). The Garscube is an excellent sports facility which could easily be adapted to comply with the SFA's licensing criteria, but to do so would jeopardise the other sports played (daily) at the Complex. Therefore to protect the other sports, the Uni hires and pays for a ground which meets licensing standards for the Scottish Cup.

It is up to the SFA to change the Licensing Criteria, should it wish to do so, or should existing SFA member clubs seek a change.

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12 minutes ago, Robert James said:

 

* Glasgow Uni has been a member of the SFA since the 1940's, with the exception of a period from 1996 - 2003. It has its own ground, the Garscube Complex, which has hosted Scottish Cup ties as recently as 2010-11 (GUFC 1 Burntisland 0 ). The Garscube is an excellent sports facility which could easily be adapted to comply with the SFA's licensing criteria, but to do so would jeopardise the other sports played (daily) at the Complex. Therefore to protect the other sports, the Uni hires and pays for a ground which meets licensing standards for the Scottish Cup.

How were Glasgow Uni able to enter the Qualifying Cup if that was the case? Can't be bothered checking every season but they did enter 1998-99, beaten by Edinburgh City after a replay.

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8 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Yes, my post was a warning to the 5 clubs which enter the Scottish Cup under 'historic rights', that when (if) the pyramid has a senior 'feeder' league in the West and the North Junior Regions, the SFA (with the backing of its Member clubs), may remove this entitlement.

For the present however, I support their 'historic rights'  because

* Girvan have had dual SFA & SJFA membership for a long of period time, and currently there is no senior pyramid feeder league in the West Junior Region. But 2019/20 maybe ? 

* Banks O'Dee was accepted into the Scottish Cup when it gained an SFA licence, prior to the rules being changed to require a commitment to the pyramid. However Banks cannot get  automatic promotion to the Highland League (no pyramid feeder league exists in the North), and was unsuccessful when it made an application to join the HFL in 2009.  

* Linlithgow Rose (like Banks O' Dee above), obtained an SFA licence before the rules were changed (ie commitment to the pyramid).  However, this club has (apparently) not applied to join the East pyramid' feeder' league for next season, which is available to it (unlike the West & North Region Juniors). Perhaps this makes it vulnerable (rightly or wrongly) in the future

* Golspie Sutherland plays in the North Caledonian League, which is not recognised as a 'senior feeder league' and does not therefore give its clubs "promotion" access to the Highland League, even if they are licensed. The club has been an SFA member club since the 1960's  

* Glasgow Uni has been a member of the SFA since the 1940's, with the exception of a period from 1996 - 2003. It has its own ground, the Garscube Complex, which has hosted Scottish Cup ties as recently as 2010-11 (GUFC 1 Burntisland 0 ). The Garscube is an excellent sports facility which could easily be adapted to comply with the SFA's licensing criteria, but to do so would jeopardise the other sports played (daily) at the Complex. Therefore to protect the other sports, the Uni hires and pays for a ground which meets licensing standards for the Scottish Cup.

It is up to the SFA to change the Licensing Criteria, should it wish to do so, or should existing SFA member clubs seek a change.

Linlithgow (committee) have indicated support of a pyramid system via the recent SJFA poll to members.  A decision still to be ratified by the180 odd members entitled to vote on any final decision.

As you say we applied before it was a requirement to enter  a pyramid system - albeit a caveat was added at the end that requirement could be added at a  future date.  The SFA so far as I'm aware have not applied this caveat. 

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 Worth noting for the defence of the Juniors is that the season keeps going until June Saturday Monday Wednesday. Lothian thistle Hutchison Vale are playing tonight vs Eyemouth and tomorrow vs burnt island shipyard. Shows there' still flaws but still over the peace I still believe we are doing the right thing.

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1 minute ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

 Worth noting for the defence of the Juniors is that the season keeps going until June Saturday Monday Wednesday. Lothian thistle Hutchison Vale are playing tonight vs Eyemouth and tomorrow vs burnt island shipyard. Shows there' still flaws but still over the peace I still believe we are doing the right thing.

The reason these games are being played so close together is to ensure that the East of Scotland can declare a champion in time for the promotion play-offs.  If the Juniors joined the pyramid they'd have to do similar.

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22 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

The reason these games are being played so close together is to ensure that the East of Scotland can declare a champion in time for the promotion play-offs.  If the Juniors joined the pyramid they'd have to do similar.

Yes I understand this but it' the argument against the eosfl. Cant sugar coat it.

Edited by AlanCamelonfan
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 Worth noting for the defence of the Juniors is that the season keeps going until June Saturday Monday Wednesday. Lothian thistle Hutchison Vale are playing tonight vs Eyemouth and tomorrow vs burnt island shipyard. Shows there' still flaws but still over the peace I still believe we are doing the right thing.
Really? There's no mention of tomorrow's fixture.

If that's true that's quite poor considering there's a league decider between them and Kelty on Saturday.

5 games in 8 days?

I suppose this is where floodlights come in.
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2 minutes ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

Really? There's no mention of tomorrow's fixture.

If that's true that's quite poor considering there's a league decider between them and Kelty on Saturday.

5 games in 8 days?

I suppose this is where floodlights come in.

Saughton has lights - they keep getting games postponed.

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6 hours ago, Afrojim said:

I'm not a BSC fan, I have no involvement with the club. I'm just not sure what ideal or sensitivity it is that people have that BSC as an organisation is offending. They're a private sports club owned and operated by their members, people pay to become members in order to avail of the services and facilities they provide. If there was no benefit to this then there would be no demand for it and therefore no club. People are entitled to spend money on what they want. There's thousands of sports clubs around the world operated on a similar basis, most German football clubs, the Foundation of Hearts, the Well Society, all of these organisations operate on the same premise resulting in what it is the members have predetermined will be beneficial to them, other members, the club and the wider community.  

If 750 or so members want to spend money helping BSC achieve its aims and benefit from membership then I genuinely don't see why that causes offence to anyone else in any way. They're a constitutional organisation, a registered charity and a licensed football club that have achieved a community award from the SFA, they're not profiting from their members or duping anyone out of their money. 

Private being more restrictive than a community club

The other clubs you refer to - German football clubs, the Foundation of Hearts, the Well Society developed from a sense of wishing to improve their already established club survive/thrive.

How it benefits the wider community - is difficult to see when its a private club (restrictive) and given they play 40 miles away for home games.  I appreciate they aren't setting out to harm or upset anyone.  It just seems an odd way to go about things and more business orientated than football.

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16 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

Just playing devil's advocate: there's no reason why LTHV, for example, couldn't play out of an entry level (except for the need to find one) and get a licence that way. There is an obsession with clubs owning their own grounds and a presumption against groundsharing which I'm not sure is realistic. Personally, I think it is a logical solution for many clubs. The BSC and Edusport situations don't sit easily with me though, but I don't think anyone could blame them for what they've done.

The SFA Licencing Sub-Committee is scheduled to meet next week, and it is rumoured that LTHV has submitted an application for an entry licence. 

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1 hour ago, Auld Heid said:

Linlithgow (committee) have indicated support of a pyramid system via the recent SJFA poll to members.  A decision still to be ratified by the180 odd members entitled to vote on any final decision.

As you say we applied before it was a requirement to enter  a pyramid system - albeit a caveat was added at the end that requirement could be added at a  future date.  The SFA so far as I'm aware have not applied this caveat. 

I hope the Committee's decision is ratified by the membership. Your club would be an excellent addition to the pyramid. Good luck.

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44 minutes ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

Really? There's no mention of tomorrow's fixture.

If that's true that's quite poor considering there's a league decider between them and Kelty on Saturday.

5 games in 8 days?

I suppose this is where floodlights come in.

i only read it on kelty feed on east of scotland forum

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39 minutes ago, Robert James said:

I hope the Committee's decision is ratified by the membership. Your club would be an excellent addition to the pyramid. Good luck.

Our biggest hurdle is many of our members believe the Pyramid involves playing Elgin away on a Tuesday evening.   Not sure without an EGM that our AGM alone would be enough to change such views.

As someone who is totally against the Pyramid - it has taken a lot of discussion for me to admit that it's also our only viable option going forwards.  Hence my concerns in my opening sentences.

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LTHV Park has been unplayable for weeks. The date for a champion to be crowned has been known since the season start. They had two games postponed last week v Tynecastle. Monday v Burntisland was postponed, they have no more Monday’s or wednesdays to fit in so the games need played. The situation is of their own doing with not being proactive in booking pitches to get games played. I heard last night LTHV refused to play last Tuesday in a rescheduled game for a postponement as they had players missing.  Wether that is true or not I don’t know.

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18 minutes ago, Auld Heid said:

Our biggest hurdle is many of our members believe the Pyramid involves playing Elgin away on a Tuesday evening.   Not sure without an EGM that our AGM alone would be enough to change such views.

As someone who is totally against the Pyramid - it has taken a lot of discussion for me to admit that it's also our only viable option going forwards.  Hence my concerns in my opening sentences.

Another myth which folk seem to think is gonnae happen is regular games against Rangers Celtic Hibs Hearts etc. 

There are teams in the SPFL that haven't played these 4 teams for donkeys years. 

WW got lucky wi a crack at Celtic over 20 years ago now. Bonnyrigg last season got lucky with their game against Hibs which I think publicity wise has led to many factors of teams catching onto the pyramid. 

You have to earn the right to even get close to drawing these teams in the Scottish Cup. 

Edited by newcastle broon
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12 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Another myth which folk seem to think is gonnae happen is regular games against Rangers Celtic Hibs Hearts etc. 

Everyone bar Albion Rovers and Edinburgh City has played one of those teams in the league in the last 6 years ;)

To me the pyramid isn't about being in the same league as the Aberdeens and the St Mirrens within 5 years its about improving your facilities, your community engagement, your youth programme, your ground and indeed your team so that you progress at an appropriate speed. The likes of Gretna should have been a warning to all current non-league teams about what can happen if you allow greed to take control.

 

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