Junior football, what is the future?

[bendan]

1 minute ago, Glenconner said:

Why not?

Because you need more than that for the licence. Fine if you don't want to be licensed.

[Glenconner]

Just now, bendan said:

Because you need more than that for the licence. Fine if you don't want to be licensed.

What do you need?

[bendan]

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/2881/scottish-fa-club-licensing-manual-2018.pdf

 

[Robert James]

5 hours ago, stanley said:

The historic rights should have counted for nothing.  All clubs should have been equal when licensing started regardless of who had historically been SFA members.  That doesn't appear to have been the case.  

What historic rights did Linlithgow and Banks o'Dee have anyway?  They weren't previously SFA members.  Different situation as they applied and fairly got a licence at the time but the rules changed later and the SFA probably don't care enough to remove their licence now.

Farcical that an amateur team in the Caley League are playing at Airdrie in order to get a licence.  I wouldn't have given a licence to Edusport or BSC either.  There should have been tighter rules on this.  

I would not ban groundsharing altogether but no way should new clubs be able to share with any team just to get a licence having never had a ground of their own and not even playing in the city or town they are supposed to represent (in Edusport's case they don't even have a town).

I say this as one of the biggest supporters of the pyramid on here.  

Whether you agree or not, it is a warning to all 5 clubs, if they don't join the pyramid - when in the not too distant future, it is open to them.  

I say this as one of the biggest supporters of the pyramid on here............and  GUFC is my team,

[gaz5]

What do you need?

Ground is only 1 of the 4 areas that make up the license requirements. Clubs are reviewed on set items relating to:

Ground Criteria
First Team Football Criteria
Youth Team Football Criteria
Legal, Administration, Finance and Codes of Practice Criteria

Ground Criteria alone actually makes up less than 50% of the license requirement, in terms of action points. 18 of 37 individual requirements are park / ground specific.

When you take the time to read through it, it appears there's been a lot of undue scaremongering about licensing. Entry level appears to be a fairly low bar of good minimum standards that it makes sense, in this day and age, to aspire to.

[stanley]

8 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Whether you agree or not, it is a warning to all 5 clubs, if they don't join the pyramid - when in the not too distant future, it is open to them.  

I say this as one of the biggest supporters of the pyramid on here............and  GUFC is my team,

I support the idea that you must be in the pyramid system to get a licence as I think it's the only way to bring about proper integration between seniors and juniors.

It is, however, still complicated now with the lack of a senior West of Scotland League and no promotion open in the north.

My point about history is that it did appear that every club that had been an SFA member ended up with a licence regardless of other factors.  Even the extreme example of Glasgow Uni groundsharing with Airdrie.  Their historical membership of the SFA should not have influenced their application for a licence.  

It does feel like integration will happen sooner rather than later and hopefully there will be no need for seemingly endless discussion on seniors vs juniors and all clubs will be in the same pyramid.

[Ginaro]

10 minutes ago, gaz5 said:

First Team Football Criteria

Just had a proper look - seems like fairly basic stuff, 11 criteria. Things like first aid/medical provision, manager contract, coaching qualifications - and a few others are just "best practice". Shouldn't be difficult for most Junior clubs to achieve,

Edited April 17, 2018 by Ginaro

[glensmad]

Ground is only 1 of the 4 areas that make up the license requirements. Clubs are reviewed on set items relating to:

Ground Criteria
First Team Football Criteria
Youth Team Football Criteria
Legal, Administration, Finance and Codes of Practice Criteria

Ground Criteria alone actually makes up less than 50% of the license requirement, in terms of action points. 18 of 37 individual requirements are park / ground specific.

When you take the time to read through it, it appears there's been a lot of undue scaremongering about licensing. Entry level appears to be a fairly low bar of good minimum standards that it makes sense, in this day and age, to aspire to.

Correct, I am currently preparing a report for my club regarding the possible requirements for Entry Level club licensing, should it become a reality for us and, from my detailed analysis of the SFA Licensing Manual, it certainly isn't something we as a club should be scared of.

[Bluenortherner]

Heston Rovers don't abuse the system.

[Hillonearth]

25 minutes ago, glensmad said:

 

Correct, I am currently preparing a report for my club regarding the possible requirements for Entry Level club licensing, should it become a reality for us and, from my detailed analysis of the SFA Licensing Manual, it certainly isn't something we as a club should be scared of.

Yeah. I've been through the criteria as well, and as I've said already on here most reasonably progressive clubs do most of it already, just in a less codified manner.

Even the odd things that aren't currently done generally aren't enormous stretches.

 

[Glenconner]

17 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

Yeah. I've been through the criteria as well, and as I've said already on here most reasonably progressive clubs do most of it already, just in a less codified manner.

Even the odd things that aren't currently done generally aren't enormous stretches.

 

Certain clubs don't want to know about pyramids because you might well be asked to show books. That wouldn't bother your average club because they don't have 2 bob to start with. But certain clubs would have real problems with books. It's all about money.

[Afrojim]

It's worth pointing out that BSC Glasgow are a community football club that have achieved the SFA's community development award. Broomhill Sports Club have over 700 children  participating in a variety of sports with many of them playing football at various age levels for BSC. They are embedded within the Glasgow community and do lots of great work. To suggest that they are a diddy football club without a home or that they have taken an easy route to licensing/senior football is a fallacy. Unfortunately there just isn't a suitable home ground for them in the Glasgow area at the moment. They are not really comparable to Edusport in any way - a wholly opportunistic bunch.  Also, BSC, East Kilbride, Cumbernauld Colts etc. aren't "glorified boys clubs" who jumped ahead of the queue - there was no queue at the time they applied. 

Many of the senior or soon to be senior non-league clubs in Scotland have a far greater impact on their local communities than many on here would give them credit for. There are many senior, amateur and youth clubs that have a far more positive impact on their respective communities than many junior clubs do.  Inverkeithing Hillfield Swifts are a great example of this, they have 450 people participating in football from under age football through to over 35's and walking football. 450 is just shy of 10% of Inverkeithing's population. When you add in their 100 voluntary coaches it's actually over 10% of the population participating regularly in football.  IHS are one of 49 clubs (only 49!)  in Scotland to have achieved the highest community award from the SFA.  There's not many junior clubs on that list. Hutchie Vale BC (the youth section of LTHV) have produced 100's of players that have gone on to play professionally, many of them at international level - Darren Fletcher, Leigh Griffiths, Kevin Thomson, Jason Cummings, Derek Riordan, Steven Whittaker, Allan McGregor, Danny Wilson, Gary Naysmith, Gary Caldwell, John Collins, Gary Locke, John Hughes and even Icelandic international Alfred Finnbogason  - to name just a few.  How many junior players have made the jump up to international football in recent years?

The only argument against junior clubs joining the senior structure seems to be the wholly jargonistic "junior identity" terminology, suggesting that their is some inherent quality prevalent in junior football that doesn't exist outwith the junior structure. At no point though has anyone put forward any quantifiable method in which we can measure this self-proclaimed inherent quality. Instead we see petty squabbles about attendances and nostalgic anecdotes about how junior clubs have existed longer than other non-junior clubs and are therefore more deserving in some way. If simply existing longer and getting a few more people through the turnstiles is considered a genuine measure of success then, in my opinion, that would suggest that something, somewhere along the lines has gone horribly wrong in junior football. No doubt this complacency has been encouraged by the incompetent people running the SJFA, the SJFA do not seem to have the best interests of junior clubs or the communities they serve at heart - a point which is consistently made by junior fans themselves.

All a country needs to be successful in a particular sport is - a willingness to participate, encouraging  (preferably qualified) coaches, decent facilities, a clear pathway to the top and clubs which reflect the local culture. It's hardly rocket science. The SFA licensing scheme, the SFA Community Award Scheme and a fully integrated pyramid structure would seem to be the things that would give individual clubs and Scottish football what it/they need to be successful heading into the future. Unfortunately, what is essentially an argument over terminology, fuelled by the vested interests of certain self-preserving individuals and certain clubs, has halted progress for well over a decade of "pyramid discussion" now.  This, for me, is an abdication of responsibility toward the communities that these institutions are supposed to be serving.  Maybe that's just indicative of wider Scottish society. 

 

[1320Lichtie]

What a post [emoji1376]

[Glenconner]

54 minutes ago, Afrojim said:

It's worth pointing out that BSC Glasgow are a community football club that have achieved the SFA's community development award. Broomhill Sports Club have over 700 children  participating in a variety of sports with many of them playing football at various age levels for BSC. They are embedded within the Glasgow community and do lots of great work. To suggest that they are a diddy football club without a home or that they have taken an easy route to licensing/senior football is a fallacy. Unfortunately there just isn't a suitable home ground for them in the Glasgow area at the moment. They are not really comparable to Edusport in any way - a wholly opportunistic bunch.  Also, BSC, East Kilbride, Cumbernauld Colts etc. aren't "glorified boys clubs" who jumped ahead of the queue - there was no queue at the time they applied. 

Many of the senior or soon to be senior non-league clubs in Scotland have a far greater impact on their local communities than many on here would give them credit for. There are many senior, amateur and youth clubs that have a far more positive impact on their respective communities than many junior clubs do.  Inverkeithing Hillfield Swifts are a great example of this, they have 450 people participating in football from under age football through to over 35's and walking football. 450 is just shy of 10% of Inverkeithing's population. When you add in their 100 voluntary coaches it's actually over 10% of the population participating regularly in football.  IHS are one of 49 clubs (only 49!)  in Scotland to have achieved the highest community award from the SFA.  There's not many junior clubs on that list. Hutchie Vale BC (the youth section of LTHV) have produced 100's of players that have gone on to play professionally, many of them at international level - Darren Fletcher, Leigh Griffiths, Kevin Thomson, Jason Cummings, Derek Riordan, Steven Whittaker, Allan McGregor, Danny Wilson, Gary Naysmith, Gary Caldwell, John Collins, Gary Locke, John Hughes and even Icelandic international Alfred Finnbogason  - to name just a few.  How many junior players have made the jump up to international football in recent years?

The only argument against junior clubs joining the senior structure seems to be the wholly jargonistic "junior identity" terminology, suggesting that their is some inherent quality prevalent in junior football that doesn't exist outwith the junior structure. At no point though has anyone put forward any quantifiable method in which we can measure this self-proclaimed inherent quality. Instead we see petty squabbles about attendances and nostalgic anecdotes about how junior clubs have existed longer than other non-junior clubs and are therefore more deserving in some way. If simply existing longer and getting a few more people through the turnstiles is considered a genuine measure of success then, in my opinion, that would suggest that something, somewhere along the lines has gone horribly wrong in junior football. No doubt this complacency has been encouraged by the incompetent people running the SJFA, the SJFA do not seem to have the best interests of junior clubs or the communities they serve at heart - a point which is consistently made by junior fans themselves.

All a country needs to be successful in a particular sport is - a willingness to participate, encouraging  (preferably qualified) coaches, decent facilities, a clear pathway to the top and clubs which reflect the local culture. It's hardly rocket science. The SFA licensing scheme, the SFA Community Award Scheme and a fully integrated pyramid structure would seem to be the things that would give individual clubs and Scottish football what it/they need to be successful heading into the future. Unfortunately, what is essentially an argument over terminology, fuelled by the vested interests of certain self-preserving individuals and certain clubs, has halted progress for well over a decade of "pyramid discussion" now.  This, for me, is an abdication of responsibility toward the communities that these institutions are supposed to be serving.  Maybe that's just indicative of wider Scottish society. 

 

700 kids - £30 a month = £21,000 

Call it £250,000 a year

Plus grants.

Plus sponsorship 

And you want the Glasgow taxpayers to build you a stadium?

Sorry troops, keep the community bit for the non graduates living in Whiteinch. You'd be laughed out of Broomhill Tennis Club with that one.

[Enigma]

Still a joke BSC don’t play in, or anywhere near Glasgow. Which ‘community’ are you serving?

[Afrojim]

24 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

700 kids - £30 a month = £21,000 

Call it £250,000 a year

Plus grants.

Plus sponsorship 

And you want the Glasgow taxpayers to build you a stadium?

Sorry troops, keep the community bit for the non graduates living in Whiteinch. You'd be laughed out of Broomhill Tennis Club with that one.

I'm not really sure what you're argument is here? Are you suggesting that a group of middle class parents are indulging in some machiavellian scheme to rip off school children? Broomhill Sports Club was set-up to provide sporting opportunities to children that the council decided weren't worth investing in anymore. £30 a month isn't much if you consider BSC is providing opportunity to 750 kids to participate in sport. That doesn't come cheap, I'd be surprised if they turn any significant profit. They're also a registered charity who submit accounts to the Scottish Charity Regulator. As I said in my earlier post sports clubs should be reflective of the community they represent, the Broomhill area and surrounding areas are decidedly middle class, as is most of Glasgow these days. It would seem to me that BSC have created a club that is reflective of the community needs and demands. Indeed, if there was no demand for these services then they simply wouldn't exist as a club in the first place. 

If the issue you have is that people are spending money then do you complain when Andy Murray wins grand slam titles because his parents paid for private tennis tuition in Spain? Or what about the plethora of footballers whose parents spend a fortune on travel and other things putting them through the pro-youth set-up? How about all the successful Commonwealth Games athletes who paid for access to Swimming Pools, Velodromes, Gyms etc.?

2 minutes ago, Enigma said:

Still a joke BSC don’t play in, or anywhere near Glasgow. Which ‘community’ are you serving?

Broomhill and the West of Glasgow  which is where most of their participants/club members live.  Just because their first team squad play in a different town doesn't mean they no longer represent Glasgow, they have existed in Glasgow for 14 years now - I've no idea why they chose to play in Alloa though when there's a few licensed grounds in the greater Glasgow area. Kirkie Rob Roy play in Cumbernauld, Rossvale played in Glasgow for a while, Yoker play in Clydebank despite being from Glasgow. Cove are playing in Inverurie at the moment. It doesn't mean that these clubs cease/ceased to represent the area that they originated from.  

 

[Glenconner]

5 minutes ago, Afrojim said:

I'm not really sure what you're argument is here? Are you suggesting that a group of middle class parents are indulging in some machiavellian scheme to rip off school children? Broomhill Sports Club was set-up to provide sporting opportunities to children that the council decided weren't worth investing in anymore. £30 a month isn't much if you consider BSC is providing opportunity to 750 kids to participate in sport. That doesn't come cheap, I'd be surprised if they turn any significant profit. They're also a registered charity who submit accounts to the Scottish Charity Regulator. As I said in my earlier post sports clubs should be reflective of the community they represent, the Broomhill area and surrounding areas are decidedly middle class, as is most of Glasgow these days. It would seem to me that BSC have created a club that is reflective of the community needs and demands. Indeed, if there was no demand for these services then they simply wouldn't exist as a club in the first place. 

If the issue you have is that people are spending money then do you complain when Andy Murray wins grand slam titles because his parents paid for private tennis tuition in Spain? Or what about the plethora of footballers whose parents spend a fortune on travel and other things putting them through the pro-youth set-up? How about all the successful Commonwealth Games athletes who paid for access to Swimming Pools, Velodromes, Gyms etc.?

Broomhill and the West of Glasgow  which is where most of their participants/club members live.  Just because their first team squad play in a different town doesn't mean they no longer represent Glasgow, they have existed in Glasgow for 14 years now - I've no idea why they chose to play in Alloa though when there's a few licensed grounds in the greater Glasgow area. Kirkie Rob Roy play in Cumbernauld, Rossvale played in Glasgow for a while, Yoker play in Clydebank despite being from Glasgow. Cove are playing in Inverurie at the moment. It doesn't mean that these clubs cease/ceased to represent the area that they originated from.  

 

That whole sign up, cough up and shut up gig pisses me right off. But to use the word "community" is laughable. I'd a glance at the BSC website, the catchment area seems to be anything west of Sauchiehall St to the last house in Old Kilpatrick. Maybe better to word it "sports business". The old community bit gets banded about a lot by football clubs large and small even when it's obviously nonsense. Take it sounds good on a grant application.

Btw, i'm probably one of the few non friends and family who has made the trip out to Alloa to see BSC Glasgow playing. Never at any point did i get the sense of any local community spirit. One of the local Alloa FC people there that night said he thought BSC was some sort of further education outfit when he first heard of them.

[Afrojim]

59 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

That whole sign up, cough up and shut up gig pisses me right off. But to use the word "community" is laughable. I'd a glance at the BSC website, the catchment area seems to be anything west of Sauchiehall St to the last house in Old Kilpatrick. Maybe better to word it "sports business". The old community bit gets banded about a lot by football clubs large and small even when it's obviously nonsense. Take it sounds good on a grant application.

Btw, i'm probably one of the few non friends and family who has made the trip out to Alloa to see BSC Glasgow playing. Never at any point did i get the sense of any local community spirit. One of the local Alloa FC people there that night said he thought BSC was some sort of further education outfit when he first heard of them.

I'm not a BSC fan, I have no involvement with the club. I'm just not sure what ideal or sensitivity it is that people have that BSC as an organisation is offending. They're a private sports club owned and operated by their members, people pay to become members in order to avail of the services and facilities they provide. If there was no benefit to this then there would be no demand for it and therefore no club. People are entitled to spend money on what they want. There's thousands of sports clubs around the world operated on a similar basis, most German football clubs, the Foundation of Hearts, the Well Society, all of these organisations operate on the same premise resulting in what it is the members have predetermined will be beneficial to them, other members, the club and the wider community.  

If 750 or so members want to spend money helping BSC achieve its aims and benefit from membership then I genuinely don't see why that causes offence to anyone else in any way. They're a constitutional organisation, a registered charity and a licensed football club that have achieved a community award from the SFA, they're not profiting from their members or duping anyone out of their money. 

[Khufu2]

3 hours ago, Afrojim said:

Yoker play in Clydebank despite being from Glasgow. 

?????????

[drs]

3 hours ago, Afrojim said:

Yoker play in Clydebank despite being from Glasgow. 

Yoker play in Yoker at the ground of Yoker, you cross the road from Yoker train station and you are at the ground. Clydebank play in Yoker despite being from Clydebank