Junior football, what is the future?

[lithgierose]

52 minutes ago, patriot1 said:

That's what Tom Johnston wants. The juniors to be separate but still in the pyramid.

Does anyone know someone who is going to the EOS meeting tomorrow night? It would be great if we could finally see a definitive list of those clubs who have applied to join.

Applying and being accepted will be two different things . imo

[tellyboy]

3 hours ago, 1320Lichtie said:

My mate played for them. Be lucky if there were over 20 on the public side of the railings, same with the Vics. Including family. Highlights used to go up on YouTube dunno if they still do.

 

 

 

To cover a few things as a Montrose Roselea "expert"  there has been little change in crowds since move North, they were sparse before and are  still so. Like most small "Junior" clubs it is mainly Committee, parents of players and odd ex player and interested football neutral who makes the crowd up. For us 30-50 swelled by the occasional Hospitality which is near on impossible despite our magnificent reputation for doing so at a reasonable cost it has never kicked off due to lack of forward fixtures, We don't do YouTube highlights after our Committee shrunk and our Media youngster signed for Brechin Vics!

Hence in 2008 our club bravely or stupidly put forward a proposal which would have seen the end of replays in the Scottish Cup Rounds 1-4 (see attached doc from then). This would have led to a very big potential for an almost full but not guaranteed fixture list. This was spoken against by a club who were "invited" by the top table to do so and basically ripped it to bits citing the "holy grail" of the SJC could not be blighted by this sacralise proposal. Spin forward 8 years after this and TJ himself mentioned it as a possibility and also spoke about dare I say summer football. In my opinion this would have gained the Junior grade so much professionalism in the terms of people would have a decent idea of  future fixtures etc as well as doing away with long distances replays (Dunbar v Inverness two buses shared with little crowd) and creating interest in the early rounds (eg Gartcairn beat holders Auchinleck on penalties instead of being beaten 7-0 in a replay). Anyway what is done is done and we move on (or backwards). To forward that further and our proposal why is the 1st Round of the Cup not played in Sept when clubs have had 7-8 games under their belt and weather is better? In fact draw two rounds and be a month ahead (The World Cup does it!)

Our club took a decision to move North and it was the right thing to do. As a club we are now struggling for a Committee and are not alone so are looking to groundshare with Montrose FC from season 2018-19 and it is a must for us to survive. A lot going on at Montrose FC and maybe no coincidence that the top team is doing well when you look at this http://www.linksparkct.org.uk/ 1400 people engaging with the Trust on a weekly basis from a population of 14,000. Massive work going on behind the scenes to make this work and Montrose Roselea want to be part of this as well as passing on our own great facility to the Amateur and Youth set ups in the town.

My take on the Pyramid? Has been long overdue. I have always thought that without picking on a certain team (East Stirlingshire) that why did they deserve to retain their Senior status and the door should always be open for progressive clubs. My take on the perfect set up would be and afraid no numbers but pointers included

 

 

Full Time SPFL (16 Teams would you believe have to be full time, 6,000 seated stadium) Benefits Dundee Utd, St Mirren, Morton etc would be in there and the League would be more open & less pressure to play youngsters (like the 1970s) and then the National Team would benefit by more players moving south to top clubs. Eg Morton sell a player to Championship club for £200,000, Teams would open up to open football and less pressure like current Premier League

North and South- Processional Part Time Clubs-  Brechin City, Stenhousmuir, Stranraer Elgin City, Berwick  - Clubs P/T but based on North/ South Geography, Feed into SPFL but meet criteria or can refuse (at start of campaign)

Regional- Professional P/T Clubs- Highland League/ Lowland Leagues but split by Geography again

Regional Non Professional (Amateur which would include Montrose Roselea), Feeders to the Regional Non Professional Clubs

Youth football (almost do away with Pro Youth but keep it for the elite.boys clubs being raped on talent aged 6-8 only for them to be dumped at 10! Let players play with their local clubs at least until 12 and then go to Pro Elite clubs through the week for training and play games like the old "S" signing basis. You learn a lot growing up with your peers

I would add that promotion would be on a self certify basis and clubs should announce at the start of the season if they are willing or able to make the move and be to the standard or expected to be so by the end of the season so clubs know what they are playing for.

And how do you make this happen?  Everyone in a true Pyramid as their place and should be able to accept or reject promotion. You simply take all the clubs and their abilities/facilities and throw them in the air (seeded) but that  does not guarantee they will land in the right place however that is what seems to be happening! It will all settle down but surely the powers that can be eg the SFA could have made it more organised?

Away the Lea!

2008 AGM Proposal.pdf

[1320Lichtie]

The top 4 leagues are perfect the way they are. The only thing that needs to change is automatic relegation from League 2. Possibly a play off system for the 9th placed team in League 2.

For the one hundredth time, If you split the lower leagues into regional leagues it would make f**k all difference. The majority of part time football players come from the central belt. I have honestly spoke about this subject so often its depressing.

[Burnie_man]

23 minutes ago, lithgierose said:

Applying and being accepted will be two different things . imo

What makes you think that? I heard a daft rumour that the EoS will only accept 5 clubs into membership. That is completely false.

[cmontheloknow]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

What makes you think that? I heard a daft rumour that the EoS will only accept 5 clubs into membership. That is completely false.

I'd be surprised if anyone is turned down unless their facilities don't meet basic requirements.

[tellyboy]

Afraid to disagree but rhe top 4 Leagues are not perfect! For the reason that although they are tight and play offs are brilliant they do not allow for open football with less pressure. The Old Firm want Colts, well play them in a top 16 against the weakest teams. That progresses Scottish football but tight Leagues don't. Probably the same in the bigger Leagues however I can also see the arguments for the smaller Leagues.

 

[sniffer]

Did the SJFA specifically address the point of how they are going to take the East clubs into the Pyramid given the existence of the EoS?  Do they still believe that they can simply move the existing East Region under the auspices of the SJFA into the Pyramid in competition to the EoS?

If you and your club attended the meeting you would of heard.

[Robert James]

3 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

That's what I alluded to, not too clearly obviously, under;

SFA – Attempting to bring the Association in its entirety into the Pyramid intact at tier 6 and with the agreement of all parties. Any previous informal promise made by Stewart Regan is now irrelevant.

But yes I agree, that's a major issue.

I just can't envisage the SFA incorporating the SJFA "in its entirety" into the pyramid. The SFA knows that a West senior feeder league is needed at tier 6,  and if enough West junior clubs want to join it, then there is no reason we it can't be established in 2019/20.  What I find very difficult to believe however, is that it will accept a WoSL being run by the SJFA,  Stewart Regan may have 'courted' the West Junior clubs, but I doubt if he wanted this league to retain its junior identity and management, when it joined the pyramid.

Would the SFA's existing (senior) Member clubs (including those in the SoSL), have voted for it being under the control of the SJFA,  even if Regan had proposed it ? 

Similarly, I can't see the SJFA accepting overall governance by the SFA. It has been a separate entity for too long, and nearly every person who posts on here, seems to accept that the SJFA has lost it's direction, and is now completely out of date.

In my opinion, it would be a very 'bad marriage'  between the SFA and the SJFA, made worse by the latter apparently seeking to 'bolt on' all of the West Region's existing lower divisions, into pyramid tiers  7-10. This would be unrealistic and unwise, at a time when "localising" leagues seems to be favoured by smaller junior clubs, because of rising costs and diminishing levels of support . 

 

 

[WitsTheGoalieDain?]

We’re so backwards as a country. Can’t qualify for any tournaments as a nation and can’t even put a simple pyramid structure into action.

[Burnie_man]

If you and your club attended the meeting you would of heard.

Do enlighten us then. Why would a club attend a meeting specifically on the future of a league they are leaving? A complete waste of time and money and the correct decision. You sound upset we're leaving, look on the bright side you might get your Fife league now.

 

 

 

[Cyril]

9 hours ago, tellyboy said:

Afraid to disagree but rhe top 4 Leagues are not perfect! For the reason that although they are tight and play offs are brilliant they do not allow for open football with less pressure. The Old Firm want Colts, well play them in a top 16 against the weakest teams. That progresses Scottish football but tight Leagues don't. Probably the same in the bigger Leagues however I can also see the arguments for the smaller Leagues.

 

Really struggling to understand this, going into the last few games of the season most teams in a league have something to play for and are meaningful, surely that creates interest therefore attendances may not dwindle. 

[jaggywaggy]

29 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Do enlighten us then. Why would a club attend a meeting specifically on the future of a league they are leaving? A complete waste of time and money and the correct decision. You sound upset we're leaving, look on the bright side you might get your Fife league now.

 

 

 

I attended the meeting purely from an entertainment point of view,  The comments made from the top table and the majority of the room only served to re-inforce our desire to leave.

[HTG]

8 hours ago, Robert James said:

I just can't envisage the SFA incorporating the SJFA "in its entirety" into the pyramid. The SFA knows that a West senior feeder league is needed at tier 6.  What I find very difficult to believe however, is that it will accept a WoSL being run by the SJFA.

Would the SFA's existing (senior) Member clubs (including those in the SoSL), have voted for it being under the control of the SJFA,  even if Regan had proposed it ? 

Similarly, I can't see the SJFA accepting overall governance by the SFA.

In my opinion, it would be a very 'bad marriage'  between the SFA and the SJFA.

I think there is a need to take a step back here. Why wouldn't the SJFA be incorporated in its entirety? The SJFA is a group of clubs - same as those running under the SoS, EoS,  LL or HFL.

The East and South feeders are run by separate associations.  Who has control is absolutely nothing to do with existing senior clubs. 

The SJFA is already overall governed by the SFA - same as the others. 

I know there is a lot of discontent about the juniors, the way they are run etc. But to suggest that all these other sub-organisations can run leagues whilst the SJFA can't carries no logic for me when you set the emotions aside. 

The one big sticking point is in the East. Two having a tango will make for an easier way forward than each dancing in its own corner. But if they need to dance in their own corner until they pluck up the courage to dance together then go with it and then work it out. 

Edited April 12, 2018 by HTG

[HTG]

10 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

I suspect the way out of this predicament from an SFA standpoint is to mandate that all tier 6 clubs below the LL have to be licensed by the start of 2019-20 and in that way effectively control who gains access and how it gets operated thereafter rather than handing over the keys to an affiliated association with let's phrase this diplomatically a questionable track record in organizational terms. That would mean the EoS in the east continuing to do a "we are the Borg" where the east region juniors is concerned, and a new WoS being launched that the licensed SoS clubs, Glasgow Uni and Girvan would be expected to join along with whoever is ready for licensing from the west region juniors. Time will tell basically.

I think this is a big selling point for having more clubs in the pyramid. Almost all of the clubs moving from the juniors are driven by a desire to become licenced.  There is an opportunity to ensure movement into and out of the HL and LL by pushing the licence agenda.  That may be an issue in the North - I don't really know the position there - but if it is, it will highlight why a straight Lowland/Highland split isn't the right structure for Scotland. 

[Black & Red Socks]

32 minutes ago, HTG said:

I think there is a need to take a step back here. Why wouldn't the SJFA be incorporated in its entirety? The SJFA is a group of clubs - same as those running under the SoS, EoS,  LL or HFL.

The East and South feeders are run by separate associations.  Who has control is absolutely nothing to do with existing senior clubs. 

The SJFA is already overall governed by the SFA - same as the others. 

I know there is a lot of discontent about the juniors, the way they are run etc. But to suggest that all these other sub-organisations can run leagues whilst the SJFA can't carries no logic for me when you set the emotions aside. 

The one big sticking point is in the East. Two having a tango will make for an easier way forward than each dancing in its own corner. But if they need to dance in their own corner until they pluck up the courage to dance together then go with it and then work it out. 

Much as most of what you state has some degree of merit, I can't help but think that your viewpoint is becoming somewhat coloured by your club's stance on the matter of sticking with the Juniors in the hope that "it'll be alright on the night" and your own consequent hope that their decision is proven in time to be correct. I'd be very surprised if it was. Like many on here, I can't quite see that the SFA, supported by those member clubs in the East of Scotland Football Association, can really tolerate a situation where clubs living cheek by jowl in the same geographic area will compete in two entirely separate leagues under the Lowland League. This is exactly the scenario that has to be done away with, not encouraged by simply allowing the SJFA and it's member clubs, for the sake of expediency, to have their cake and eat it.

As you say, emotion is best set aside, but logic and a quick glance at history suggests that the SJFA and it's regional organisations have been proven and proven again to be incapable of running an efficient league system in quite the same way that the other sub-organisations of the SFA have.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Black & Red Socks

[Burnie_man]

24 minutes ago, jaggywaggy said:

I attended the meeting purely from an entertainment point of view,  The comments made from the top table and the majority of the room only served to re-inforce our desire to leave.

From what I hear, you're not the only one to have left the meeting with that opinion.

[bluebell1]

12 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

There can't be two leagues in the east, can there?

There’s no outline from sjfa at the moment was kinda hoping we would have got that on Tuesday.

However, assuming there would be 2 east leagues at tier 6 is also possibly off the mark.

I am Led to believe that a combined east/west superleague at tier 6 is also a potential proposal with regionalised leagues below.  Now personally under a pyramid structure which allows junior clubs to obtain licence and scrap the reinstatement rule and possibly the junior brand.  The formation of that league would be a real step forward. 

However, time is still of the essence and agreement by I would predict Ayrshire based west clubs potentially a stumbling block.  But we couldn’t argue what a potentially exciting league we would have.

As said previously the sjfa should have been active a long time ago.  It’s up to them to save the grade and action is required urgently 

[lithgierose]

A super duper league 

[Robert James]

54 minutes ago, HTG said:

I think there is a need to take a step back here. Why wouldn't the SJFA be incorporated in its entirety? The SJFA is a group of clubs - same as those running under the SoS, EoS,  LL or HFL.

The East and South feeders are run by separate associations.  Who has control is absolutely nothing to do with existing senior clubs. 

The SJFA is already overall governed by the SFA - same as the others. 

I know there is a lot of discontent about the juniors, the way they are run etc. But to suggest that all these other sub-organisations can run leagues whilst the SJFA can't carries no logic for me when you set the emotions aside. 

The one big sticking point is in the East. Two having a tango will make for an easier way forward than each dancing in its own corner. But if they need to dance in their own corner until they pluck up the courage to dance together then go with it and then work it out. 

Your summing up is interesting.

The SJFA is a governing body for 3 separate Regions, West, East & North. It therefore has wider interests than running one league only. Furthermore, your proposal assumes the "all in"  or "all out" scenario, which a fair sized number of Junior clubs evidently don't want. It also ignores the SoSL situation, should some of its clubs licensed clubs want to join the West feeder. 

In addition, the issues in the East and North Regions are very different than those forming a new West feeder, and these may well go in an entirely different direction, over differing timescales.   

[Jason King]

4 minutes ago, bluebell1 said:

 It’s up to them to save the grade