Junior football, what is the future?

[Black & Red Socks]

 

36 minutes ago, Auld Heid said:

My gripe is with the football authorities - when the LL started, the SFA stopped and forgot about the rest and pushing to create a proper pathway from top to bottom.  Without due process and rules you eventually end up with the chaos.   

Clubs continue in the EoS league,  unable to progress as still don't meet LL criteria(?) - the LL isn't a new concept existing clubs in the EoS should  have all been in a position by now to progress.   Surely  participation must  involve  meeting that criteria to progress to LL - or the whole concept breaks down. 

Kelty when accepted - had shown on and off the field they would enhance the EoS and would quickly meet the criteria to enable progression to the LL if successful on the park. 

How many of the current applicants would be in a position to progress to the LL within a season of joining the EoS?   Surely this should be a must for teams joining

Linlithgow have made all the right moves to embrace change - unfortunately having done so they are now dithering over how to take the next step - sticking their faith in the SJFA to negotiate a pathway. 

I wouldn't necessarily take great issue with most of what you've said, but I think it's still incumbent upon clubs to make their own decisions to better their lot. Your previous post indicated your wish for acceptance into the EoSFL and the Pyramid to be on football merit and this post calls for the ability to meet licensing criteria within a given time frame after acceptance. The clubs who have applied for season 2018/19 will, I guess, have done their homework and will believe that they can meet licensing criteria in any such fairly assessed time frame given the potential benefits available inside the Pyramid so why should they stand still behind Linlithgow and wither on the vine when, as you say, Linlithgow are "now dithering over how to take the next step sticking their faith in the SJFA to negotiate a pathway" - a faith that could very well be misplaced?

Edited April 6, 2018 by Black & Red Socks

[Burnie_man]

Just a take on the EoS and any future set-up.  The 13 existing will make any decision with regards to next seasons set-up, they are the current members and it’s for them to do what’s right for them and the league. There are three main scenarios that I can see;

-The EoS expand the league to 16/18 clubs, and accept 3/5 applications for the top division with everyone else forming a new second division.

-They split the league into two equal sections with the winners of each playing off for the Championship, and the top 8 in each forming the top division for 2019/2020.

-They have a league cup group style pre-qualifying process, with the top teams in each group forming the top division for the remainder of the season, and the rest into a second, with promotion/relegation as normal at the conclusion.

What is fairly clear in my mind is that once we get to the end of next season 2018/19, the now (expanded) membership won’t have any appetite for another “transition” season to accommodate more new applicants. They will point to the second division as a joining point and if there is more than that can handle, a third division.   The EoS hold the whip hand here and they do not need to accept any proposal from the SFA or SJFA to bounce clubs into a higher division ahead of existing members, why would they? The process for applying to their league is there, and upto a dozen Junior clubs have already gone down that road.

The only other scenario I can see playing out is a negotiated “merger” of the EoS with the ERJFA, but again why would the EoS be interested in that, and  I just can’t see the ERJFA being allowed into the Pyramid to run a “competitor” league alongside the EoS covering the same geographical area.

Just my take on how it could pan out from reading various contributions over the last few weeks, but regardless of the survey results, the SJFA are not in a position to make any demands in the East at all.

[Jason King]

This was asked pages ago by someone but I didn't see an answer,

-- what are the East Region planning in terms of relegation/promotion for the end of the season? We know that 3 clubs for definite have indicated they are leaving (Blackburn, Camelon, Dalkeith), surely clubs have a right to know what they are actually playing for at the end of the season.

 

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, Jason King said:

This was asked pages ago by someone but I didn't see an answer,

-- what are the East Region planning in terms of relegation/promotion for the end of the season? We know that 3 clubs for definite have indicated they are leaving (Blackburn, Camelon, Dalkeith), surely clubs have a right to know what they are actually playing for at the end of the season.

 

I doubt they can plan until resignations are received, and I doubt they will be submitted as none of the clubs have been accepted by the EoS yet. 

If all the clubs rumoured to have applied follow this through, as far as I can see it either means a reduced Super and Premier, or the Premier is scrapped altogether (which will please some).

[santheman]

I don't know the workings of the EOSL inner sanctum  so a question 

Who has the final say on who gets accepted, the  clubs (as happens in the SJFA) or the EOSL Hierarchy.

I ask that because if I was a current EOSL member club I would be thinking what's in it for me allowing a mass influx of former Junior  clubs.

[Auld Heid]

22 minutes ago, Black & Red Socks said:

 

I wouldn't necessarily take great issue with most of what you've said, but I think it's still incumbent upon clubs to make their own decisions to better their lot. Your previous post indicated your wish for acceptance into the EoSFL and the Pyramid to be on football merit and this post calls for the ability to meet licensing criteria within a given time frame after acceptance. The clubs who have applied for season 2018/19 will, I guess, have done their homework and will believe that they can meet licensing criteria in any such fairly assessed time frame given the potential benefits available inside the Pyramid so why should they stand still behind Linlithgow and wither on the vine when, as you say, Linlithgow are "now dithering over how to take the next step sticking their faith in the SJFA to negotiate a pathway" - a faith that could very well be misplaced?

That's where we differ. 

I believe associations run football for members overseen by the SFA.  What is happening is the demise/break-up of the SJFA due to the failure of the SFA to follow through logically from when they started the LL.

The SJFA are reacting to this after the horse has bolted - the EoS have saw an opportunity to increase their power and the SFA continue to sit back and let this happen.  Not every club  will benefit - for every winner there is always  losers. 

Ultimately by letting teams move purely on application is no guarantee of improving the EoS  it could also be detrimental to some of their existing members.   This is why I feel there should have been a proper transparent process - agreed by associations and clubs.

 

 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Glenconner said:

One of the funniest threads on the LL forum???  Kicked off with a Daily Record story as stated. Some millionaire chap in North America (Fergus McCann's cousin) was ready to give the Green light to Cathkin and Third Lanark. History was everywhere from the story of a dodgy Labour councillor getting the jail to a then local Tory MP chairing a fans meeting in the Dixon Halls (10 years after the club had folded???) Even the Hi Hi bar in the Gorbals got a mention, full of old yellow cigarette stained pictures of the Third Lanark and a jukebox full of rebel records!!! Then there was some sort of spokesman who said he was really a Partick Thistle fan telling us big news was coming in August. The third August is coming up and we're still waiting. And then some chap arrived after about a 100 posts and told the unofficial Thirds spokesman he was talking bollocks and the Jimmy Johnstone Academy has some 5 year let from the council to play at Cathkin on a Saturday. Great never ending story.

One aspect in all this proposed revamp of football in Scotland is IMHO there are too many clubs playing at SPFL level. One critism levelled at those from the group of Junior supporters who have concerns is that they are caught  in the past, debilitated by nostalgia. I would suggest that this is actually true of many in football. The constant talk of Third Lanark is a nice nostalgic story, but the reality is that there are already two very good clubs in that area in Queens Park and Pollok, resurrecting another club in this area would have three competing for crowds, sponsorship, community identity, it therefore should be left in the past. 

As for point about too many clubs in the top four, I believe that what we need now is a very radical shake up with a very different format. I have stated regularly that I have no problem with clubs wanting to go as high as they can within their capabilities. I do have a problem with clubs at a higher level than is appropriate. Some time ago I forwarded a concept that is radical but would benifit all, imortantly a complete pyramid but with suitable rigour to insure appropraite progress, if I may can I reiterate my proposal, with slight amendment.

Starting  from the top, Top league of 16, all clubs must be full time or have the capacity to be so and be working towards that. Gold club licence or have the capacity to gain that and be working towards that. Second league of 16 no requirement to be full time, silver licence or have the capacity to gain and be working towards it. Third league 16, Bronze level licence required. Below this regionalised feeder leagues, Pyramid one must have club licence any club who have aspirations of joining SPFL three must have bronze level before admission.  Two clubs will be relegated from SPFL three with two clubs from the top pyramid leagues going up decided via play off, as stated must have Bronze licence. The Junior cup would be retained as a national non league trophy and be open to all below SPFL three. 

This for me would work or something very similar. There is a progression route but with suitable rigour so as to insure clubs reach their proper level but are of appropriate standard. The sticking points are the six clubs who would be required to step down from SPFL and small clubs desperate to get in the SPFL who will not gain appropriate licence. But that for me is the point. I suggest that this would create a vibrant non league sector, but ambitious clubs with real potential could progress from it. 

[Burnie_man]

 

4 minutes ago, Auld Heid said:

  This is why I feel there should have been a proper transparent process - agreed by associations and clubs.

 

There should have been, but there wasn't.  The SJFA (and clubs) should have been more open 6 years ago to the LL, they weren't.

So what we have now is Linlithgow who are already Licenced, deciding not to move into the Pyramid next season and you're not happy.  I wouldn't be happy either if I were in your shoes, but it is what it is and it's not the fault of those clubs who have decided to move, and it's not the fault of the EoS.   Linlithgow have missed the boat.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Burnie_man

[Ross.]

13 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

One aspect in all this proposed revamp of football in Scotland is IMHO there are too many clubs playing at SPFL level. One critism levelled at those from the group of Junior supporters who have concerns is that they are caught  in the past, debilitated by nostalgia. I would suggest that this is actually true of many in football. The constant talk of Third Lanark is a nice nostalgic story, but the reality is that there are already two very good clubs in that area in Queens Park and Pollok, resurrecting another club in this area would have three competing for crowds, sponsorship, community identity, it therefore should be left in the past. 

As for point about too many clubs in the top four, I believe that what we need now is a very radical shake up with a very different format. I have stated regularly that I have no problem with clubs wanting to go as high as they can within their capabilities. I do have a problem with clubs at a higher level than is appropriate. Some time ago I forwarded a concept that is radical but would benifit all, imortantly a complete pyramid but with suitable rigour to insure appropraite progress, if I may can I reiterate my proposal, with slight amendment.

Starting  from the top, Top league of 16, all clubs must be full time or have the capacity to be so and be working towards that. Gold club licence or have the capacity to gain that and be working towards that. Second league of 16 no requirement to be full time, silver licence or have the capacity to gain and be working towards it. Third league 16, Bronze level licence required. Below this regionalised feeder leagues, Pyramid one must have club licence any club who have aspirations of joining SPFL three must have bronze level before admission.  Two clubs will be relegated from SPFL three with two clubs from the top pyramid leagues going up decided via play off, as stated must have Bronze licence. The Junior cup would be retained as a national non league trophy and be open to all below SPFL three. 

This for me would work or something very similar. There is a progression route but with suitable rigour so as to insure clubs reach their proper level but are of appropriate standard. The sticking points are the six clubs who would be required to step down from SPFL and small clubs desperate to get in the SPFL who will not gain appropriate licence. But that for me is the point. I suggest that this would create a vibrant non league sector, but ambitious clubs with real potential could progress from it. 

While I agree broadly with your view on an ideal set up, I find it interesting that you start with "Too many SPFL clubs" and finish by increasing that number from 42 to 48...

[Ivo den Bieman]

17 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

One aspect in all this proposed revamp of football in Scotland is IMHO there are too many clubs playing at SPFL level. One critism levelled at those from the group of Junior supporters who have concerns is that they are caught  in the past, debilitated by nostalgia. I would suggest that this is actually true of many in football. The constant talk of Third Lanark is a nice nostalgic story, but the reality is that there are already two very good clubs in that area in Queens Park and Pollok, resurrecting another club in this area would have three competing for crowds, sponsorship, community identity, it therefore should be left in the past.  

In fairness, mentioning Thirds was tongue in cheek. Think the vast majority of fans realise that any putative return to competitive football at Cathkin Park is a self publicising fairytale trotted out by weegie tabloids during the slow news days of the Glasgow Fair.

[Salvo Montalbano]

That's where we differ. 
I believe associations run football for members overseen by the SFA.  What is happening is the demise/break-up of the SJFA due to the failure of the SFA to follow through logically from when they started the LL.
The SJFA are reacting to this after the horse has bolted - the EoS have saw an opportunity to increase their power and the SFA continue to sit back and let this happen.  Not every club  will benefit - for every winner there is always  losers. 
Ultimately by letting teams move purely on application is no guarantee of improving the EoS  it could also be detrimental to some of their existing members.   This is why I feel there should have been a proper transparent process - agreed by associations and clubs.
 
 

So what was this logical progression from when the Lowland League was set up? If your answer is anything about letting the juniors slot in under that then that's a red herring straight away since the juniors weren't interested at that time. So what could/should the SFA have done?

[Black & Red Socks]

That's where we differ. 

I believe associations run football for members overseen by the SFA.  What is happening is the demise/break-up of the SJFA due to the failure of the SFA to follow through logically from when they started the LL.

The SJFA are reacting to this after the horse has bolted - the EoS have saw an opportunity to increase their power and the SFA continue to sit back and let this happen.  Not every club  will benefit - for every winner there is always  losers. 

Ultimately by letting teams move purely on application is no guarantee of improving the EoS  it could also be detrimental to some of their existing members.   This is why I feel there should have been a proper transparent process - agreed by associations and clubs.

 

 

I'm not sure we do differ greatly though. The SFA should indeed have grasped the nettle when the Lowland League was set-up and should have insisted that the SJFA become part of the process. Your wish for an orderly merger would, or certainly could, have been the order of the day had this happened. It didn't though and there is still no sign that it will. In truth, that horse has already bolted and this is the crux of the matter. So, again, clubs have to do what's best for them now, not wait for the hoped for will of the SFA to be implemented - it just might never happen, so how long do clubs who see their future better served within the Pyramid wait? The answer, of course, is they don't wait but do what's best for them now.

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Black & Red Socks

[Guest]

I have taken a keen interest in this topic and the debate is good. There appears to be lots of differing opinions on what is for the best, which probably makes a fully integrated pyramid even harder to achieve in the long run (amateur all the way to professional/senior level) 

What is clear is that most of the arguments are based on the here and now,  on the field success of clubs,  which I can understand completely. This appears based on the fact that a lot of the more recently successful junior sides feel as though they deserve to be recognised for their efforts in building a level of sustainable on field success.

However, from my understanding the pyramid is set up to be about a whole lot more than a strong team on the field. Some time ago we took to following others nations paths in community/youth orientated football set ups, then added girls/ladies and over 35's to the mix. We now look for business plans, community plans, stadia requirements, accounts and the level of coaching through the entire club set up. 

This is what the pyramid is about, building the foundations for a sustainable club where a player can begin playing at 5 and continue playing until 40/50. Not simply about winning leagues and cups for years with no off field direction or progression. Yes licensing seems straight forward enough but will require redirecting funds, how many clubs would accept lowering their on field success to achieve this? 

When considering what the eosfl offer in aid, to help progress clubs to get their licence, if they wish to, it appears a far better option for most clubs to attempt to utilise. 

Take Blackburn as an example, relatively good on field success recently, but what a fantastic set up they have built. They have probably sacrificed more on field success to get their foundations set up for a sustainable future and will no doubt progress upwards if accepted to the Eosfl. 

For those who feel their clubs should stay junior and wait, that is perfectly acceptable tbh. If you don't want to join the pyramid you should not be pressured or forced in any way. But to diminish the work it has taken for those who do wish to apply, dismiss the quality of club in both the eosfl and LL and believe that a clubs on field success should guarantee them entry to a higher level surely can't be right? 

I believe that the pyramid is positive, everyone will find their operating level in time. However there can be no jumping leagues or place fixing going on,  out of fairness to those who have worked hard to get where they are in the eosfl and LL. As an example,  if your club chose to move - a West club went from west to east in the juniors would they go straight from superleague to superleague? I wouldn't think that would happen, would they not start at the beginning and work upwards? 

Anyway,  just my attempt at an objective look at the debate. Good luck to your club whatever they choose as best for their future. 

[kefc]

1 minute ago, G4Mac said:

I have taken a keen interest in this topic and the debate is good. There appears to be lots of differing opinions on what is for the best, which probably makes a fully integrated pyramid even harder to achieve in the long run (amateur all the way to professional/senior level) 

What is clear is that most of the arguments are based on the here and now,  on the field success of clubs,  which I can understand completely. This appears based on the fact that a lot of the more recently successful junior sides feel as though they deserve to be recognised for their efforts in building a level of sustainable on field success.

However, from my understanding the pyramid is set up to be about a whole lot more than a strong team on the field. Some time ago we took to following others nations paths in community/youth orientated football set ups, then added girls/ladies and over 35's to the mix. We now look for business plans, community plans, stadia requirements, accounts and the level of coaching through the entire club set up. 

This is what the pyramid is about, building the foundations for a sustainable club where a player can begin playing at 5 and continue playing until 40/50. Not simply about winning leagues and cups for years with no off field direction or progression. Yes licensing seems straight forward enough but will require redirecting funds, how many clubs would accept lowering their on field success to achieve this? 

When considering what the eosfl offer in aid, to help progress clubs to get their licence, if they wish to, it appears a far better option for most clubs to attempt to utilise. 

Take Blackburn as an example, relatively good on field success recently, but what a fantastic set up they have built. They have probably sacrificed more on field success to get their foundations set up for a sustainable future and will no doubt progress upwards if accepted to the Eosfl. 

For those who feel their clubs should stay junior and wait, that is perfectly acceptable tbh. If you don't want to join the pyramid you should not be pressured or forced in any way. But to diminish the work it has taken for those who do wish to apply, dismiss the quality of club in both the eosfl and LL and believe that a clubs on field success should guarantee them entry to a higher level surely can't be right? 

I believe that the pyramid is positive, everyone will find their operating level in time. However there can be no jumping leagues or place fixing going on,  out of fairness to those who have worked hard to get where they are in the eosfl and LL. As an example,  if your club chose to move - a West club went from west to east in the juniors would they go straight from superleague to superleague? I wouldn't think that would happen, would they not start at the beginning and work upwards? 

Anyway,  just my attempt at an objective look at the debate. Good luck to your club whatever they choose as best for their future. 

What a brilliant post, best yet on here 

Don’t let “weegieboy” see this, football clubs aren’t allowed to have a business plan, he must be an advocate of running hand to mouth each week, winging it.

If football clubs feel being part of the pyramid helps to sustain and improve their club for the benefit of their supporters and the community on and off the pitch as you have stated then let them. Respect should be shown for clubs moving for being brave and open to change.

Clubs happy to to keep the status quo and are happy outside the pyramid then they have the choice also to stay in the SJFA.

[1320Lichtie]

‘Too many clubs’

*Bangs head off desk*

[nicotina]

excellent well thought out unbiased positive statement g4mac

[surely not!]

Great to see so much debate on this topic and what it’s shown is that when it comes to football, there will never be a solution that everyone is happy with.

 

What I would say though is that the game and the pyramid will evolve and in many cases at a very fast pace. What we think may never happen for many years ( a team reaching the championship from current non league) could happen quite quickly.

 

A couple of years ago on this forum I made a charity bet with PC Cabe ( mind him!) as he was sure that no LL team would get promoted within the next twenty years- he lost. But he based that on the perceived standards of these teams at the outset of LL.

 

The standards within it have risen drastically in the last five years and this level of progress ( or indeed a shift in the power base of quality) can indeed continue with more clubs within the structure.

 

[vikingTON]

59 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

One aspect in all this proposed revamp of football in Scotland is IMHO there are too many clubs playing at SPFL level. 

House!

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Ross. said:

While I agree broadly with your view on an ideal set up, I find it interesting that you start with "Too many SPFL clubs" and finish by increasing that number from 42 to 48...

Hold my hands up, made an arithmetical boob, my original idea was just two top leagues as detailed, but although I think that good, taking ten clubs out would be unpalatable for too many, so I amended to add a third league at bronze level, three leagues of 14 would mean no clubs having to drop, perhaps this would have a chance of discussion at least. 

[nicotina]

by the way dipple burn its Salisbury not salsbury  if u are going to slag us try spell check  its only been in the news non stop

do u shop at sansbury oops no BIG shop in the village