Junior football, what is the future?

[Robert James]

11 hours ago, Dipple burn said:

Don't you mean a negative response to the pyramid?

yes

[Whitburn Vale]

The 1st of April will tell a tale......,a lot of talk on here but after the 31st we will find out once and for all who has applied for the EoS and who has not.

Not sure if the SoS league closing date is the 31st of March like the EoS or its the end of April?

[the tin man]

Wee song for the juniors
The eos is buzzing the juniors r deed
John greenhorn phone is buzzing the juniors r deed
Nananananananaan ooooh
Nanannananana
Please keep easthouses thank you

[Marshmallo]

How many times does it need to be posted - you do not require a license to play in tier 6.

[.Stuart.]

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/sport/juniors/16124649.Pyramid_scheme__SJFA_head_lifts_lid_on_move_to_alter_Juniors_forever/

It’s as if the guys reading from a script. Arthurlie would rather play Pollok?

 

In what situation would you see them not playing each other in the pyramid unless one of them climbed the leagues?

 

“In the HL, you need floodlights. That’s £80k a pop.” FFS [emoji849]

[Ross.]

13 minutes ago, .Stuart. said:

It’s as if the guys reading from a script. Arthurlie would rather play Pollok?

 

In what situation would you see them not playing each other in the pyramid unless one of them climbed the leagues?

 

“In the HL, you need floodlights. That’s £80k a pop.” FFS

At least they aren't as expensive as the toilets.

[Kilbowie Benches]

The usual scare story for thickos  who haven’t looked into the details.

[cmontheloknow]

11 minutes ago, Ross. said:

At least they aren't as expensive as the toilets.

Rather than dishing out red dots, Ross let's hear your opinion... if you have one? You diagree with Clydebank's decision to leave the Juniors I take it?

[Ross.]

1 minute ago, cmontheloknow said:

Rather than dishing out red dots, Ross let's hear your opinion... if you have one? You diagree with Clydebank's decision to leave the Juniors I take it?

My comment was entirely sarcastic.

I fully endorse our decision to join the senior set up. I think the SJFA and clubs have had their heads in the sand for too long and have probably left it a bit too long for some clubs to fully recover.

Non league/Junior football has it's place and that place has been very good to us, however, the overall set up is at best archaic and so many of the practices are laughable.

It's a shame it has taken them so long to see the inevitable. What it all looks like in a few years time will be very interesting. I hope we are amongst those who really take the opportunity that looks set to be given to us and move up the leagues. That said, a lot of sides will feel the same and it should make for an interesting few years while it all evens out.

[Robert James]

3 hours ago, fan of the juniors said:

Not commented on this thread as frankly it was going nowhere & starting to bore me but the news of the last day or so has gave it a shot in the arm .
Has anyone seen who voted for what yet ? Makes very interesting reading so it does . Looking at it Talbot , Cumnock & Glens could join their own wee breakaway league & just play each other for all & eternal . I’m sure they would get the 2 Irvine sides wishing to join them as well .

Yes, "boring" and going around in circles, with some very entrenched views, is surely a waste of time ?

99 clubs confirmed that they wanted to join the pyramid. 55 didn't, and 4 didn't reply (despite being chased to do so). The results are what they are. Move on.

So IMO, from next week, there needs to be a change in the focus on this Post, as we will know how many, and ideally be told which clubs, have applied to join the EoSL and SoSL next season. In particular it would be very interesting to hear:

* views from supporters of the "leavers" , and how  would they like to see  the EoSL (and SoSL ?) integration  take place 

* with views from Junior "remainers" as to how they would like to see the SJFA set up be reorganised, in the absence of the "leavers" ?

* with views as to whether junior (and senior) clubs want to have a new integrated 'FA Trophy' for all non-league clubs, or alternatively keep the Junior Cup for those clubs  not joining the pyramid ? If the latter, should a new national non-league trophy be established for senior/pyramid clubs only ?

* with views from "remainers" about how they would like to see the realignment of the SJFA, in 2018/19 and 2019/20

* with view from "leavers" as to how an integrated pyramid WoSL should be established, and how should this relate to the current SoSL feeder

* with an expanded pyramid,  should existing promotion and relegation to/from Tiers 4 -6 be revised, and how ?.

Looking forward, there is a lot to be decided, both challenging and exciting. Continuing the  junior v senior disagreements gets us nowhere. Each to their own.

 

 

[cmontheloknow]

39 minutes ago, Ross. said:

My comment was entirely sarcastic.

I fully endorse our decision to join the senior set up. I think the SJFA and clubs have had their heads in the sand for too long and have probably left it a bit too long for some clubs to fully recover.

Non league/Junior football has it's place and that place has been very good to us, however, the overall set up is at best archaic and so many of the practices are laughable.

It's a shame it has taken them so long to see the inevitable. What it all looks like in a few years time will be very interesting. I hope we are amongst those who really take the opportunity that looks set to be given to us and move up the leagues. That said, a lot of sides will feel the same and it should make for an interesting few years while it all evens out.

cheers Ross - totally misread you /o\

[boulderdomb]

Everyone talking about financial gain of playing in the Scottish Cup when moving to senior - surely the more junior clubs who move the less money the clubs will receive as the wealth will need to be spread more otherwise the SFA would go bust? Rounds 1 & 2 could see a financial hit if more and more clubs try to get on.

[Gimme]

9 minutes ago, boulderdomb said:

Everyone talking about financial gain of playing in the Scottish Cup when moving to senior - surely the more junior clubs who move the less money the clubs will receive as the wealth will need to be spread more otherwise the SFA would go bust? Rounds 1 & 2 could see a financial hit if more and more clubs try to get on.

Probably not in the short to medium term as Scottish Cup entry requires a licence (unless you win one of the handful of 'other' entry slots available). There are a relatively small number of clubs who will attain their licence over the next couple of years but for the vast majority of junior clubs it won't happen any time soon, if ever.

[Burnie_man]

On ‎09‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 15:14, Burnie_man said:

Just throwing this out there for discussion.

As expected we've seen Kelty jump ship, maybe one or two will follow in the next couple of seasons but I can’t see a trickle becoming a flood for various reasons, particularly in the West.

However, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t a significant percentage of clubs out there who would like to see a proper pyramid structure in place which wholly involves Junior clubs, and for these clubs to work towards gaining an SFA Licence and work their way up that structure, participating in the Scottish Cup.

Currently, the SJFA don’t appear willing to engage in serious discussions with the SFA, or even open a debate internally with members on this issue.

So what do Junior clubs do next? what is the long-term future of Junior football?  Do nothing and hope that we only lose a handful of clubs and carry on unchanged, or begin an honest and open discussion between member clubs about how to integrate with the pyramid.

These are serious questions that now need asked but I doubt we’ll hear much about it at the upcoming AGM, it’ll be more head in the sand stuff and no leadership.

When I started this thread just under 11 months ago when Kelty left, I had the feeling the writing was on the wall then, although I never thought for a second that the pace of change would take us to where we are now.  The trickle did turn into a “flood” after all, either via clubs following Kelty into the EoS or demanding the SJFA change their attitude towards the Pyramid.  It’s heartening to see.

That said, I am far from convinced that the powers that be at the SJFA are capable of leading the organisation into the Pyramid, they will no doubt make demands that the SFA/LL/HL/EoS/SoS are clearly going to baulk at.  Do they really want another national association existing (intact) within the Pyramid with its own competitions, do they really want another league in the East covering the same geographical area, what’s the plan regarding the North clubs. There are a great many obstacles to overcome and I just don’t see the anti-Pyramid lot at the top table making the kind of concessions that need to be made, regardless of what clubs want.

The SJFA should fully disband at the behest of its members, there is no reason for it to continue to exist.  A new WoSFL can be formed by the West Region clubs keeping the same structure that is to be implemented next season, the clubs in the East can continue to move over to the EoSFL as is currently happening, and those in the North can, like the West, form their own NoSFL and seek closer ties with the HFL.  There should be a place for everyone within the structure regardless of whether they are pro or anti Pyramid, and we all know that for the vast majority of clubs, nothing will change in the short term. Same clubs and same fixtures.

The Junior Cup cannot continue to exist in its current form, it already causes massive fixture disruption, has no sponsor, and costs clubs money. Let it go and once everyone is settled into the Pyramid, look at ways in which a new competition can be run involving ALL non-league clubs, perhaps with the early rounds on a regional basis before the last 64 switches to a national draw. 

Will all this happen? Will a rump of Junior clubs stick to their guns and continue to exist in a cut down SJFA? The EGM will be interesting, but in these times of change anything can happen and I can see this thread being relevant for a while yet.

[Enigma]

Probably not in the short to medium term as Scottish Cup entry requires a licence (unless you win one of the handful of 'other' entry slots available). There are a relatively small number of clubs who will attain their licence over the next couple of years but for the vast majority of junior clubs it won't happen any time soon, if ever.

Would imagine you’d see an extra qualifying round too or something. Scottish Cup has changed and expanded its format plenty times recently, sure it could cope with another shake-up if needs be.

[fan of the juniors]

Jeanfield did vote/return questionaire

You sure ? Not according to the questionnaire that I’ve seen
But if you can show that they have I will take your word for it

[Junior_Arab]

14 hours ago, kleptomaniac said:

milk and honey no less

I'm very pro-pyramid, but I think the clubs in and around Dundee (like Carnoustie) probably have reservations for the same reasons as those in the West - there's no obvious place for them to go. As things stand, officially, I believe they would be feeding into the Highland League (although I have seen comments that suggest the HL intend to resist the pyramid and keep running as a closed shop), which is, frankly, a bit mental. League trips to Wick from Dundee and vice versa??? If the dividing line was kept as the Tay that would isolate the Dundee, Angus and presumably Perth teams.

Although there aren't exactly many Junior "behemoths" in that area at the moment at least, what might help swing a boundary re-organisation would be the relative proximity of 4 senior Angus clubs (Arbroath, Montrose, Forfar, Brechin) who I'd think would rather play in an East League rather than the Highland one in the event of "relegation" , which very nearly happened to Montrose not too long ago.  Actually, I'll chuck my own team, Dundee United into the fray too, cause on current form it may affect them too before too long!

[monthelie']

2 hours ago, .Stuart. said:

It’s as if the guys reading from a script. Arthurlie would rather play Pollok?

 

In what situation would you see them not playing each other in the pyramid unless one of them climbed the leagues?

 

“In the HL, you need floodlights. That’s £80k a pop.” FFS

I don't know why he quoted us, probably because he fucking hates us.

He couldn't see this coming ?? Must have been one of the few who didn't.

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, Enigma said:

 

Would imagine you’d see an extra qualifying round too or something. Scottish Cup has changed and expanded its format plenty times recently, sure it could cope with another shake-up if needs be.

 

 

What they should do is take away the spots for the top 4 Championship clubs in Round 4, and have a consistent policy of SPFL teams from the same league entering at the same time.  It doesn't make any sense, because the Championship sides with byes are typically without a game anyway.  You could also explore the current situation where the top 2 teams in the Highland League and Lowland League get byes to the 2nd Round - you could reduce that to just the champions, or even get rid of it, though that's probably not necessary right now.

That would free up quite a few spots for the earlier rounds.  Right now there are 16 teams automatically qualified for the 4th Round, which means only 32 teams can compete in the 3rd Round.  If that dropped to 12 teams, then you'd have 20 places up for grabs, and 40 teams competing in the 3rd Round (4 extra spaces plus the 4 Championship teams who have been bumped down).  If my calculations are correct, then that would lead to a scenario where there could be as many as 52 teams instead of 36 in the 1st Round.

R1 - 52 teams (16 Highland League, 14 Lowland League + 22 from Preliminary Round{s})
R2 - 40 teams (10 League Two, 2 Highland League, 2 Lowland League + 26 winners)
R3 - 40 teams (10 Championship, 10 League 1 + 20 winners)
R4 - 32 teams (12 Premiership + 20 winners)

Last season, there were only 15 teams in the Preliminary Rounds, but they were only playing for 6 spaces in the tournament proper.  This small tweak would mean that another 7 members could join without even needing to hold a Preliminary Round.   There would only need to be a negligible change in prize money to make this happen.

Edited March 29, 2018 by craigkillie

[newcastle broon]

IF a WoSFL was formed anybody any thoughts on what league  Girvan would play?

They used to be in the SoSFL, awright a few years ago now, but would surely fancy themselves in that league where if play offs potentially could be achieved season after season with an easier accessed route to the LL? 

Likewise Gretna and Dalbeattie should they ever get relegated from the LL  they would find it much easier to get back to the LL than most East/Central/West clubs? 

It's not just Fife and Tayside that might/might not see the benefits of a pyramid geography wise? 

As much as there are pros and cons somebody somewhere has a difficult job on their hands getting the right balance.