Junior football, what is the future?

[8MileBU]

2 hours ago, kefc said:

From Twitter @scottcam67

Statement from TJ just put out saying all Junior clubs put your faith and trust in the SJFA to negotiate the very best scenario on your behalf. He stuck 2 fingers up to the pyramid and Licencing for the past 10 years and now clubs got wise to the situation he’s now been booted into action.

His idea looks like we will join en masse alongside and we can get our clubs licenced, enter the Scottish Cup, have referees provided but we will keep our Junior grade and the Scottish Junior Cup for those clubs that stick by us. While your at it give us some extra Scottish Cup places too. 

Non League needs to be all in with everyone working together for the greater good, having splits can’t work. Get every club in together under 1 banner with different regional leagues and boards under tier 5, all clubs can get licenced, Scottish Cup Entry, Scottish Junior Cup open to all non league clubs with possible regional ties for the 1st few rounds to ease travelling for smaller clubs.

Good on TJ for being pro active on the statement but working in different groups and organisations is partly why this mash up is happening, TJ doesn’t seem to see it,  deluded, self preservation mode who knows.

Fucking hell.

[Che Dail]

1 hour ago, Isabel Goudie said:

By the way Talbot have recently had new toilets installed, not 100k but a fair amount. They were deemed necessary for a stadium in the 21st century, pyramid  or not, club licence or not. 

Are you talking about the grey portaloos?

To get a licence you'd still need to erect a perimeter fence to screen the pitch from the outside world so that supporters can't watch a game from the street or a garden.

Are punters still peeing behind the main stand in full view of neighbours or are they walking all the way round to the new loos these days? 

21st century.

[8MileBU]

8 minutes ago, gogsy said:

I think you might have misread that , Tom Johnston has made a statement that is on Scott Campbells twitter account, I think the rest that you quoted might have been the view of kefc.

 

Apologies to everyone if that isn't correct.

https://twitter.com/scottcam67

No gogs, I read it correctly and follow Scott on Twitter as well. 

My remark was purely aimed at Tom Johnston’s last-minute desperate scramble to stay relevant. I might be sceptical, but this statement of his doesn’t read to me like it’s motivated by being for the good of the Juniors, but more like a case of: ‘The Juniors are aw my teams! It’s my wee empire and I’m no giving it up!’ 

[archieb]

[archieb]

The statement in Scott Campbell's article that "15 of the junior clubs who responded are currently club licensed" is incorrect. Only 3 are - Banks O'Dee, Linlithgow Rose and Girvan. The other 12 can only be said to CLAIM that they "meet Entry-level Club Licensing criteria" as the survey asked.

The quote there from TJ that "most Highland and Lowland clubs are licensed" is of course also incorrect. If it was meant to refer to all Highland LEAGUE and Lowland LEAGUE clubs , then of course ALL of them (not most) are licensed.

[wullie robb]

4 minutes ago, 8MileBU said:

No gogs, I read it correctly and follow Scott on Twitter as well. 

My remark was purely aimed at Tom Johnston’s last-minute desperate scramble to stay relevant. I might be sceptical, but this statement of his doesn’t read to me like it’s motivated by being for the good of the Juniors, but more like a case of: ‘The Juniors are aw my teams! It’s my wee empire and I’m no giving it up!’ 

8 Mile

I don't know this guy whatsoever,  but it sounds like your 100% Correct in saying he's not giving it up. 

His statement reads along the lines of, I've sat on my arse and done nothing for years, but I've now been found out as to being absolutely useless and I'm now going to panic and spout some words to try and cover up my years of doing zero. 

[Garret Deasy]

3 hours ago, kefc said:

Statement from TJ put out  public,  its on Twitter @scottcam67

Reads to me as Junior clubs put your faith and trust in the SJFA to negotiate the very best scenario on your behalf. He stuck 2 fingers up to the pyramid and Licencing for the past 10 years and now clubs got wise to the situation he’s now been booted into action.

His idea looks like we will join en masse alongside and we can get our clubs licenced, enter the Scottish Cup, have referees provided but we will keep our Junior grade and the Scottish Junior Cup for those clubs that stick by us. While your at it give us some extra Scottish Cup places too. 

Non League needs to be all in with everyone working together for the greater good, having splits can’t work. Get every club in together under 1 banner with different regional leagues and boards under tier 5, all clubs can get licenced, Scottish Cup Entry, Scottish Junior Cup open to all non league clubs with possible regional ties for the 1st few rounds to ease travelling for smaller clubs.

Good on TJ for being pro active on the statement but working in different groups and organisations is partly why this mash up is happening, TJ doesn’t seem to see it,  deluded, self preservation mode who knows.

If TJ has something important to say about some momentous 'survey' why can he not tell the member clubs, the players, managers and supporters without asking that Sun journo to do it for him?

The future of the junior game and the junior clubs is now a path of least resistance. In other words anything that creates work for TJ, or decisions from any of the committees in the game then it will be avoided at all costs. That is why the junior game is in chaos, lacking leadership and demonstrating cluelessness at every turn. This is the vacuum that allows the charlatans of the SFA to step in to fill the space.

Anyone know the size of the bonus Regan got prior to his P45 for implementing the pyramid? Prepared to be amazed!

 

Just in case you haven't checked, here is the latest news hot from the pages of the SJFA website. http://www.scottishjuniorfa.com/sjfa/scottish_fa_news.cfm?page=1747

Can anyone define useless and clueless?

Edited March 27, 2018 by Garret Deasy

[Dipple burn]

1 hour ago, Che Dail said:

Are you talking about the grey portaloos?

To get a licence you'd still need to erect a perimeter fence to screen the pitch from the outside world so that supporters can't watch a game from the street or a garden.

Are punters still peeing behind the main stand in full view of neighbours or are they walking all the way round to the new loos these days? 

21st century.

Unfortunately some people will pish anywhere. I was in Morecambe on Sunday and cretins were pishing in the street.

[kefc]

Only 10 months ago after our meeting with Boness and Bonnyrigg, we asked if we could get himself and all East and West Superleague clubs round the table to see if there was appetite for change from the top down as 1 working together.

I asked him and it was totally dismissed  within a second of him getting asked, not even want to chat about it. The same dismissal the SFA got when talks began on the pyramid 10 year ago, the same dismissal he gave at the last AGM when we left that we were wrong. He’s had plenty time and It’s looking very likely that it’s him that’s got it very wrong.

A blind man could see change was coming when LL and EOS clubs were able to get licenced and reap the rewards but some of the biggest non league clubs couldn’t because they were part of a different association. It was only a matter of time before trust and faith was lost and clubs researched what they were missing out on due to bad leadership, no wonder clubs decided to look after themselves.

Edited March 27, 2018 by kefc

[lithgierose]

Clubs in the junior leagues that are licensed should be firing in applications the now.

[Robert James]

7 minutes ago, kefc said:

Only 10 months ago after our meeting with Boness and Bonnyrigg, we asked if we could get himself and all East and West Superleague clubs round the table to see if there was appetite for change at the from the top down as 1 working together.

I asked him and it was totally dismissed  within a second of him getting asked, not even want to chat about it. The same dismissal the SFA got when talks began on the pyramid 10 year ago, the same dismissal he gave at the last AGM when we left that we were wrong. He’s had plenty time and It’s looking very likely that it’s him that’s got it very wrong.

A blind man could see change was coming when LL and EOS clubs were able to get licenced and reap the rewards but some of the biggest non league clubs couldn’t because they were part of a different association. It was only a matter of time before trust and faith was lost and clubs researched what they were missing out on due to bad leadership, no wonder clubs decided to look after themselves.

If there is a loss of trust and confidence in a Prime Minister, a Head Teacher, a Cricket Captain, or any other influential leader, there is usually only one outcome.

 

[Glenconner]

42 minutes ago, Robert James said:

If there is a loss of trust and confidence in a Prime Minister, a Head Teacher, a Cricket Captain, or any other influential leader, there is usually only one outcome.

 

In the name of God, Go!

House of Commons, 1940.

[Glenconner]

On 9 June 2017 at 16:16, Baxter's Nutmeg said:

If the SJFA don't get their finger out and sort issues such as fixture allocation then they will be continually looked on as a laughing stock. The Junior game is suffering from a credibility issue at the moment, and if it's not sorted more clubs will follow Kelty's path.

June 2017.

9 months it lasted before the dam burst.

[newcastle broon]

5 hours ago, kefc said:

The same dismissal the SFA got when talks began on the pyramid 10 year ago, 

 

It's all coming out now. 

But but but....... It was all created far too quick with teams fast tracked to the LL though  

Wonder if ISA  would care to comment now  

Edited March 28, 2018 by newcastle broon

[Hillonearth]

6 hours ago, Glenconner said:

In the name of God, Go!

House of Commons, 1940.

Yeah, whether it's been a genuine misguided attempt to preserve a grade some think of as special and of itself or just naked protectionism designed to preserve the petty fiefdom of the current hierarchy, it's now clear it's been spectacularly mishandled from day one.

It appears there have been repeated attempts to engage with the SJFA that have just seemingly been dismissed with a wave of the hand. More damningly, it also appears these developments have not only been dismissed but not subsequently communicated to the clubs.

That Sun interview read like someone trying to fit a new kitchen in a house that's currently on fire.

 

[superbigal]

He really just won't surrender will he ?

If as his statement says the club's now hold the decision (here's me thinking they always did) , someone have the balls to set up a motion of no confidence

Kelty why did you never try that route ?

 

 

[the jambo-rocker]

That statement smacks of being designed to buy time. He's been forced to make that statement rather than be proactive, that is for sure, and to me that he's using whatever power he has left to come out with quasi-diplomatic status that is easy to abuse.

[cmontheloknow]

Just in terms of timelines, here are a few pieces I have excavated:

" Now's your chance Gord" (The Sun, 13/6/07)

A review of then-new SFA Chief Exec Gordon Smith's previous columns that contains the following:

I'D like to see a pyramid system introduced in Scotland to give other ambitious non-league clubs the chance to play in the Scottish League as well.

The current set-up is wrong as there are too many clubs stagnating in the Third Division, knowing they'll still be there next season no matter where they end up this year.

The clubs vying for entry to the league are more ambitious and many have already put money into their clubs to help fund their stadiums.

Even some of the bigger junior sides are more than capable of competing against the current crop of teams in the lower reaches of the Scottish league.

Highland League sides especially have shown that they are more than capable of beating league teams in the Scottish Cup.

Regional divisions should be introduced in the north and south and they can try and gain entry to a higher division.

Edited March 28, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[cmontheloknow]

" SPL promotion play-offs are proposed for next season " (The Scotsman, 22/12/11)

A PLAY-OFF system between the Scottish Premier League and the First Division could be in place for the end of next season if proposals for league reconstruction are agreed by the country's 42 senior clubs.

A seven-page document circulated to those clubs, drafted by the Scottish Football Association, has been seen The Scotsman. If adopted, the proposals would mean one unified body for the senior game, likely to be called the Scottish Professional Football Leagues. Inspired in large part by the review carried out by former First Minister Henry McLeish, the proposals envisage a top flight of 12 as at present, from which the bottom club would be relegated automatically.

The team coming second bottom would be involved in play-offs against the clubs which finish second, third and fourth in the second tier.

Similar play-offs would take place for promotion to the second and third flights, and there would also be two new divisions - Highland and Lowland Super Leagues - below that level. Clubs currently involved in the Highland, East of Scotland and South of Scotland Leagues would be asked at the end of next season if they wished to apply for membership of the new, higher divisions. Junior clubs, which participate in separate leagues, would also be invited to enter the new structure at the base of the pyramid.

In a bid to encourage current SPL clubs to accept the greater risk of relegation, it is proposed to increase the parachute payments for those teams demoted to the second flight, which may be rebranded as the Championship. Clubs would receive more money in both the first and second seasons after going down.

The draft document also envisages changes to the system for distributing revenue among member clubs. As at present, however, the lion's share would go to those in the top flight.

The paper was drawn up by the SFA's Professional Game Board which, together with the SPL and SFL, has tried to formulate workable changes. In a letter to the 42 senior clubs, SFA chief executive Stewart Regan said he hoped officials would respond positively. "I would ask that you give serious consideration to the paper's suggested way forward, consider the wider implications of change, and feed back your constructive views, thoughts and alternatives," he wrote.

Clubs have been asked to respond by 23 January - three days before the Professional Game Board plans to discuss a final paper.

[cmontheloknow]

Pyramid structure Nice idea, but junior clubs remain unconvinced by reality. (The Herald, 11/1/13)

ONLY a fraction of Scotland's junior clubs have expressed any interest in trying to work their way up a pyramid structure. Tom Johnston, the secretary of the Scottish Junior FA, has polled all his member clubs for their thoughts on the proposal launched by the Scottish Football Association, Scottish Premier League, Scottish Football League on Tuesday. Although the deadline for responses has been extended until next Wednesday and there is widespread general support for movement through the leagues, no fewer than 98% of respondents say they have no desire to apply or work their way up even to the Lowland or Highland divisions which would feed into the bottom of the 18-team national league.

While some ambitious junior outfits -- such as Clydebank, Fife-based Ballingray Rovers, and Glasgow's Petershill -- have expressed an interest in joining the senior ranks, heavyweights of the junior game Auchinleck Talbot, Linlithgow Rose, Pollok, Maryhill and Kirkintilloch Rob Roy are either reluctant to sacrifice their junior status or unwilling and unable to fund the ground improvements which would be required for them to bring their stadia up to entry level criteria.

Although the new format could be in place for the start of next season, Johnston feels the earliest any pyramid structure could happen would be the summer after next. While major northern junior clubs such as Culter and Banks o' Dee could feed into a Highland conference, the Lowland League would require a convoluted structure to accommodate clubs from the South and East of Scotland leagues, and those from the East and West Junior Premier Leagues, many of whom may well decline promotion.

"The principle of ventilation would be generally acceptable," said Johnston. "But I don't think most would actually want to take part in a pyramid system. We have got a questionnaire out to our clubs and the four questions we have asked are 'do you support the principle of a pyramid system?'; 'does your club have aspirations of playing in a Highland of Lowland league?'; 'does your club have ambitions of playing in the SFL'; and 'would your club's facilities meet club licensing entry level criteria?'. I have got to say that 98% of them have come back and said yes they do agree with the principle, but they don't have aspirations to play in the Lowland or Highlands, or the SFL, and nor do they meet club licensing criteria.

"There is a possibly that one or two junior clubs might decide they want to go and play in the Lowland league, but even of those not many will meet the criteria. Interested clubs could contact the SFA and if they meet the criteria they might be invited. We wouldn't stand in the way of any club who had ambitions to move on but there are lots of reasons why other clubs are reluctant to take part. We have got a vibrant top end and I don't see what is on offer as any better than what we have. We sell our game at the right price; it is [pounds sterling]5 to get into a junior game at the moment, it is more financially accessible for a lot of football fans and the main hurdle and obstacle for clubs will be the cost of meeting the criteria at club entry level. That would be pretty punitive. Annan Athletic spent [pounds sterling]250,000 meeting the criteria just for the SFL. We play local football which suits the teams and players and anyone who goes to play in the Lowland league would have to leave the juniors and lose the chance to play in the Emirates Junior Cup."

Persuading 22 of the SFL's 29 member clubs to give the plans their blessing will be hard enough -- sides in the 18-team National League would have to weigh up the long-term possibility of relegation against the short-term gain of two meetings with Rangers next season -- and implementing the structure requires a lot of work. Integrating amateur sides and working out what happens if two central belt teams are relegated in any given year are likely to prove another headache.

"Where it gets a bit more convoluted is in the Lowland league," Johnston said. "You would probably need to get the winners of the East and West Regions and the winners of the South of Scotland and East of Scotland to go into a play-off and meet the bottom sides in the Lowland league. The amateurs is an even bigger problem, because it is more fragmented than the rest of it."

The plan will take a step forward today with David Longmuir and Neil Doncaster likely to face a more favourable response in face-to-face discussions with representatives from clubs in both the East and South of Scotland Leagues.